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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: redcrystal on Monday 25 July 05 06:31 BST (UK)
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I think the first name is Mary, but I can't figure it out.
This is a certificate copy from Victoria Australia, in 1854. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I can take more scans if you want.
Thanks in advance,
Liz
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I took the letters one by one as best as I could and came up with TALMNER. Can you give us a scan of some other words from the cert so we can compare
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Looks like Falmer to me
Can you do a few more words and a bit smaller
Jane
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It looks like John WILLIAMS and Mary PALMER to me. Though the initial letter of Mary's surname is very odd if it is meant to be a 'P'. Is there another upper case 'P' to compare it with?
JAP
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Ooops Well it kinda came out way to big. *Kicks computer* If you download the image you should be able to zoom in and out via, Image preview.
Thanks again.
Liz
BTW, the parent names are. 1 John Williams 2 Mary ??? 3 George Henry (I had to cut some of the last name. It should read Brassington.. Most likely spelt wrong) 4 Susanna Davis
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This is the occupations.. I don't know what the top one says, so help the would be great too. :)
Thank you for the replies already!!
I love this place.
Liz
Pic 1 is the place of residence, Reeds Creek,
Pic 2 is
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Oops I am not very good at this lol :O
Ok.. first is the Occupations(Miner and ???), and also the second image is the word from under Mr Williams.. I have no idea what it is either.
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It's like the priest made the letter up lol.
Here is a capital P, J, F, I and T.
It is another persons record. But all by the same priest.
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hope it's okay to add my thoughts......
I think the bottom occupation could bean abbreviation of Servant.
Mary's surname - The first letter is difficult to decipher...but I think the rest is .olmer
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Have you considered the name Tolmer. South Aust had a famous policeman by that name during the years of the victorian goldrush.
PeterB
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Most definalty are replies are appreciated! Because I have no idea :)
In my above post, with the capitals... The T looks really different. I definatly think the second letter is a O.
This is what the above scan with all the capitals says
"James Boyd , Painter ; Isabella Brown ; Huge Tracey, Famer"
John was born in Bristol England aprox 1831. I have searched the BDM Aus because I have an idea when he died, but none of those has John and Mary/May listed as parents
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Liz,
I can find out lots of things - but not yet anything to determine Mary's surname! Though I'm still going for PALMER ...
A Google finds that George BRASSINGTON married Susanna DAVIS on 13 Nov 1837 in South Australia.
And I find that John WILLIAMS married Caroline Esther BRASINGTON (indexed with that spelling) in Victoria in 1854.
And I know that Reid's Creek was a rich goldfield in NE Victoria near Beechworth.
The IGI has a John WILLIAMS marrying a Mary PALMER in Shoreditch, London in 1836 - a bit late for John's parents if he was b 1831 ...
I'm still trying ...
JAP
PS: was Mr George BRASSINGTON the Hatter!
PPS: I tried TOLMER too but didn't come up with anything ...
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Here are my ideas:
Names: I think Mary's surname is definitely ?OLMER. I wondered about the "O", because the other o's in the scans you've sent do vary, but it's not an a or an e, so O is the only alternative. As for the first letter, the closest match I can see is an "S", but I've never heard the name SOLMER...then again, I've not heard of TOLMER, and PeterB has, so it's not beyond the realms of possibility!!!
Occupations: The one above "Miner" is "Hatter". The other one, ? Reed's Creek, looks like "Sert" or "servt", short for Servant as KathyM suggested.
Hope that helps a bit! ::)
Prue
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Prue,
TOLMER is definitely a name. In fact, I am surprised (having just done a surname search in the IGI) how rare it is! I guess that comes from being Australian and knowing about the rather famous gold escorting policeman, Alexander TOLMER, mentioned by peterb! There are a number of topographical locations named after him in Australia. Anyway, I've just Googled a bit more and I learn that he was born in London in 1815 of French parents. One always learns something on RootsChat!
JAP
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Hi JAP, coming from the more northerly part of Oz (Qld) I haven't got the goldfields knowledge that you obviously do! :P Us poor northerners only had tin scratchings to work with....
Prue ;D
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I think that it looks like an J or I but that isn't possible Jolmer/Iolmer.
As for John's Birth by the marriage cert on 26.12.1854 say's 32 which would make him born in 1822. But for his daughters birth Cert, it has age 37 this was dated 26.2.1858 so that makes it 1821. Mind you on this cert. It says they were married in 1856 when I know because of the marriage cert that they were married in 1854.
Also I don't know if this helps but it says that he was a Licensed Victualler.
It is strange with the second letter. because in none of the other O's on the page is there one that has the middle crossed through, they are all at the top, but yet on all the A's they are perfect A's.
I think I need to invest in a time machine. :D
Thank you all for you help and idears.
Liz
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Hi again Liz,
If that's a 'P' you showed us (you said it was the start of Painter) then I think that's got quite a lot in common with the initial letter of Mary's surname (given that the scribe seems to form his letters differently at each occurrence). And more similarities than with his 'S', 'T', 'F, 'I' or 'J''.
As for his 'o's - well! Compare the 'o' in John (flies off from the top into outer space), the 'o' in George (more like an 'e'), the 'o' in Boyd and the 'o' in Brown - none is like the first vowel in Mary's surname. Then take a look at his variable 'a's - the 'a's in Williams (first occurrence), Mary and Brasington (all more like a 'u's) compared with the perfect closed 'a's in Susanna, Williams (second occurrence), James. Isabella, Tracey, Pai(nter), Fa(rmer) - again none like the first vowel in Mary's surname.
Unfortunately, this scribe couldn't be consistent if he tried!
Of course, when I turn out to be quite wrong, I'll be ready with the peanut to push round the room with my nose ...
Incidentally, I'm still puzzling over the word before Reid's Creek - why would anyone stay a servant when there was a ton of gold to be won! And is his actual occupation (you mention Licensed Victualler) elsewhere on the cert?
Cheers,
JAP
PS: Prue, would you believe that Google says there's a Tolmer Place in Springwood, Q. Wonder what that's named after ;D
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From:
http://www.tourisminternet.com.au/bwwalk3.htm
"5 REID'S CREEK GOLDFIELD
This area was the scene of much activity during the 1850's. In 1853 there were 8000 miners on the Reid's Creek field and the original settlement was just upstream from here. It had a post office, stores and police camp. Reids Creek was the scene of several riots, when disputes arose over the ownership of claims. At the time there was no proper legislation to ensure fair and orderly granting of claims.
William Howitt, an English Author wrote of Reids Creek in 1853:
'for nearly two miles, a wide valley is completely covered by tents and the soil turned upside down by diggers. A more rowdy and uninviting scene I never saw..... all the trees were cut down; the ground where it was not actually dug up was eaten perfectly bare by lean horses... more shabbiness and apparent wretchedness it would be dificult to concieve.
Reids Creek has the character of being a disorderly and dangerous place. There have been no less than fifteen murders committed at it...'
The miners, or diggers as they wore called formed themselves into two groups; the Punchers and the Monkeys. The punchers worked the dry banks and gullies and generally wore moleskins. The monkeys worked the stream and considered themselves superior. Those who had struck it rich wore black woollen trousers and Napoleon boots, and sported silk sashes and gaily coloured kerchiefs."
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In spite of the inconsistency with the T in Tracey I still believe that the first letter of the original image is a T. I can be persuaded that the second letter is maybe an o and in view of the mention of TOLMER and a possible French connection I'll go for TOLIMER. That shows in a google search as well in Oz
I'll standby for peanut duty
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Hi JAP,
Yes it is a P, and it is the weirdest I have ever seen :-\,
I think apart from the fact that his writing changes the worst part is he used that split nib! :o
Incidentally, I'm still puzzling over the word before Reid's Creek - why would anyone stay a servant when there was a ton of gold to be won! And is his actual occupation (you mention Licensed Victualler) elsewhere on the cert?
For John's occupation on the marriage certificate, would it surprise you to find out I can't read it lol :'(. I am the best genealogist on the block lol. I shall attach it for you all to have a look at. I think it is Miner...
To confuse a little more that col, with Mr Williams .?.?.? Reids Creek at the top is header is named "When and Where Married". :D
JAP, that REID'S CREEK GOLDFIELD doc is very interesting thank you for that! I am thinking that maybe George Brassington may have been there mining too. As in NSW is supposed to be in shipping. May also explain what 16 year old Caroline was doing in Vic. Maybe they went down for the Rush as a family ?
Liz
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Well I now have found that the Brassington's were there in Vic, I have found Caroline's brothers death info.. :D :D :D I knew he died in 1854 but not where (off LDS info) So yay! I least I discoved that. Now I know she wasn't a run away :)
Family Name: BRASINGTON
Given Name(s):William
Sex:Unknown
Event:DEATH
Father's Name:George
Mother's Name:UNKNOWN - Susannah
Spouse's Family Name:
Spouse's Given Name(s):
Age:2
Birth Place:TAMWORTH
Death Place:
Registration Year:1854
Registration Number:2063
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Hi Liz,
Well ain't that something. I guess that you know that Tamworth is in NE NSW - I lived in nearby (but higher) Armidale for some years. As for Beechworth, Vic - my late father grew up in nearby Rutherglen; his father (active in founding Shearers' Unions - some say he founded the first SU) worked in gold mines there round 1900.
And yes, George B and Susannah were in Beechworth - they had a daughter there.
There are a couple more BRAS*INGTONs in Vic in the early times apart from Caroline Esther's marriage and little William's death.
BRASINGTON Charlotte, father Geo, mother Susanah DAVIS, b BEECHWORT 1855 #8979
BRASINGTON Charles Daniel (b London) m RICHARDSON Margaret Alma (b Sussex) 1882, #4970
There are also some BRAS*INGTON mothers (Mary, Sarah, Letitia, Harriet) to children named PERRY, RIDLEY, SCURRY and SPICER - are these relevant?
JAP
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And again ...
I guess you've looked at the NSW BDM online at:
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/search.htm
Your people certainly moved around - marrying in SA, having children in NSW and Vic ...
I see that in NSW there's a:
Susanna BRASSINGTON born to George H and Susanna in 1847
Harriet A BRASSINGTON born to George H and Susannah in Eden in 1864
George H BRASINGTON born to George H and Susannah S in 1843
Alexander BRASINGTON born to George H and Susanna in 1849
Phillip BRASINGTON born to George H and Susanna in 1845
William BRASINGTON born to George H and Susanna in 1851
Emily R BRASINGTON born to George H and Susannah S in Sydney in 1857
Matilda BRASINGTON born to George H and Susannah in Eden in 1861.
Probably more information to be found on the NSW BDM site ...
JAP
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And yes, George B and Susannah were in Beechworth - they had a daughter there.
There are a couple more BRAS*INGTONs in Vic in the early times apart from Caroline Esther's marriage and little William's death.
BRASINGTON Charlotte, father Geo, mother Susanah DAVIS, b BEECHWORT 1855 #8979
BRASINGTON Charles Daniel (b London) m RICHARDSON Margaret Alma (b Sussex) 1882, #4970
There are also some BRAS*INGTON mothers (Mary, Sarah, Letitia, Harriet) to children named PERRY, RIDLEY, SCURRY and SPICER - are these relevant?
JAP can I kiss you????? I will anyway *kiss* You are wonderful, I don't know how you found Charlotte's. (I have this whole other thing going on about her!! And this record complicates it, but also helps the situation, by proving she existed :D) I thought I looked for all varients! Obviously not. I have only known her as Elizabeth Charlotte.
Thank you for finding that and not assuming I had found it already.
I am not sure about the Marriages, George and Susan/na(h) came from ENG and as yet the info I have about there births comes from a submited family file at LDS.. (which I am having issues about as well lol)
Thanks again mate that is wonderful!
And again ...
I guess you've looked at the NSW BDM online at:
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/search.htm
Your people certainly moved around - marrying in SA, having children in NSW and Vic ...
<snip>
Probably more information to be found on the NSW BDM site ...
JAP
Yes I love NSW BDM!! :D I search it often. I think I have them all off of there.
You are most certainly right about them moving around, and although it makes it harder to trace, it is cool because you can make more of a story. Like, my guess about GB and family moving for the gold, we that must have been what they were doing. :) BTW they had two kids in SA too lol.
Liz
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Hi All,
What about Salmon? Or Solmon/Solomon. This name is driving me crazy! Bah to the priest who chose such a silly nib to use and for having hard to decipher writting.
Liz
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Looking at the letter over and over again....I am still convinced that the first vowel in Mary's surname is O.....there are two different O's....depending upon what letter is going to be written next......the one in George finished at the top, because 'r' starts at the top....the one in Mary's surname finished at the bottom as it is followed by 'l'.
Going back again to the word before, Reid's Creek.......is this def. the occupation ? Do you think it may be part of the address and says......."tent, Reid's Creek" ??
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:) I was looking at that "tent' area, and that is also what I came up with Cathy, that or T.est. :)
I am also fairly sure the second letter is a O, too. As with the a's they all have the little down stem.
The third letter is a l, but with the last couple I can't be positive. I think it is mer or ma.
I was suprised to see that there are Jolmer's out there :D
Liz
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I think they lived in a tent !
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Yup, definitely "tent". I would have thought there would be alot of tents in that kind of place, I wonder how they knew which tent? ;D
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My guess at the ambiguous name is Falmer but I'm definately just a beginner at this.
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hi the name is ?almer i did try to compare it to the other letters but i couldn't see anything that matched can you not see if you can match the name guesses so far from census???
good luck on your quest
kim
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Did you eventually sort out your certificate - You see I have a marriage certificate for Mary Tracey who married Joseph Boyd in 1854 and other details also include a Hugh Tracey and also occupations of painter and farmer. Are we researching the same family?
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Ooops Well it kinda came out way to big. *Kicks computer* If you download the image you should be able to zoom in and out via, Image preview.
Thanks again.
Liz
BTW, the parent names are. 1 John Williams 2 Mary ??? 3 George Henry (I had to cut some of the last name. It should read Brassington.. Most likely spelt wrong) 4 Susanna Davis
Hi
I wondered if This may be helpful? Tolmer?
full name birth year burial year age relationship and notes cemetery village town county country
Albinia Frances Tolmer 1964 wife of Herbert Gerald Tolmer St Mark Anglican Woodside South Australia Australia
Herbert Gerald Tolmer 1941 St Mark Anglican Woodside South Australia Australia
Cheers
Bobi NZ