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Family History Documents and Artefacts => Graveyards and Gravestones => Topic started by: GRACELAND on Sunday 24 July 05 20:08 BST (UK)
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So what would you do ??
My option Would have to Be Number 2 too the point i could read all the info on the stone !!
I believe The reason why we have gravestones is to remember the person that lies below A name /Male /female age etc Plus you can then relate to that person Know the time they lived in etc !!
Its no good Saying about stone henge it is not the same thing at all !!
Grave stone are still being use today and would you like your loved ones stone covered in moss for got about in a corner
The Answer is NO !! you would not !!
Moss on the back yes !! :D Keep the front clean then we can read it as it was ment to be !!
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I havn't had to really clean off any headstones to read them yet, but on the topic of headstones, I just had the cemetery fix my great-grandmother's headstone the other week. It is a flat stone and over the years was sinking into the ground and the corners were covered with grass and dirt. When you bury the person you pay a lifetime maintenance fee for the care, such as cutting the grass and included is the headstone. She died in 1960, so not really old, but it is now back in it's original position. I like to think she would be happy that I had it fixed up for her.
Karen
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This should be interesting Graceland!!
I've just posted a bit of a long winded reply on the previous 'Cleaning gravestones' thread.
I'll be really intereseted to see how the voting goes.
Anne
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This is a bit like our churches if they become redundant should we pull then down !!
Why Do we clean Historic Pictures ??
Don't say we don't i know we do !!
What about national gardens should we let nature take over ?
Imagine next time you visit a National Trust Garden and see it covered in Brambles
You Say what's happen "Sorry Sir /Madam We had To let Nature In !!"
:o :o
A bit Far Fetched but the same ;D
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I have spent hours around graveyards looking for graves some are quite faded i would clean of to get all information particular if there was a key to my research
Jim
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I've cleaned stones so that I could read the details but I must remember next time I go on a graveyard ramble to take extra cleaning rags with me, paper hankies don't last very long ;)
Bee
p.s. what's the point in having a headstone that no one can read? ???
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I'm with you Gracland No 2
Whats the point in having a stone if you cannot read it.
Wellie
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A definate no-no for me.
After having read everything I can find on this particular subject, I find myself siding completely with professional opinions - and this is DON'T TOUCH!
Anne
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From my experience going round (dragged round) graveyards by Sarah:
If a gravestone from a glance definately is not the right one, obviously I would leave it alone.
If details are obscured then I would pull back any grass, or ivy to try and see the detail.
If I thought in any way that the grave could be damaged by my action, then I wouldn't disturb it. Also in the same manner, after disturbing any ivy or grass then I'd lay it back on. God's a better garderner than me, and knows best. :)
In cleaning a grave, whether it be my relative or not, it gives a great moment of thought, reflection and respect for that person that was laid there, to think that somebody loved them enough to lay a stone for them, and for one moment to imagine their personality.
Don't tell Sarah, but I love grave hunting with her!
Trystan
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I think one must draw the distinction between taking a casual look at a gravestone and recording the details. Those projects recording MIs depend upon the gravestones being read and a soft brush, soap and water is often used for the purpose. If a grave is currently illegible and in 50 years would be totally illegible (regardless of whether or not it was possible to clean), then I would argue that it is more important that the details be recorded for posterity, than observing any perceived niceties.
On another angle, it depends on who the headstone belongs to. As an example, I have only just discovered the location of my grandfather's grave (he died nearly 20 years before I was born). When I get the chance to visit, I will definitely clean it if it is required and as the oldest surviving male relative, would defend my right to do so. But, I know the exact location of his grave. In the case of people 'browsing', I think they can remove vegetation, but they should otherwise leave well alone.
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I voted No. 2, but I would only clean a headstone if I was pretty certain it was 'one of mine' and needed to be able to read the inscription for confirmation.
Jill
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This gravestone-cleaning malarky is more popular than you think... :)
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Paul...........where do you get 'em from? Great!
Jill
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:D :D :D
Luv it.. luv it.. luv it .. Paul :D
I can just hear ole George singing your words to his ukulele.
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Hi wendy, the difference between cleaning gravestones and cleaning historic pictures is that one would hope that the person cleaning the historic pictures would be trained and qualified to know exactly what they are doing, what materials they are dealing with, and the ramifications of the treatment they are undertaking!!
Having said that though, I recently went to an old cemetery in the UK and found the gravestone of my ancestors' plot fallen on its face. With a couple of cousins I lifted the stone so we could read the face of it (most of which had rotted away - cheap stone >:( ) ... if it had not been almost completely deteriorated as it was, we would have put it back face down, where it would have been protected. But as we are the only descendants of those in the grave, and the stone was almost destroyed (or at least the text) we left it up.
I think as long as you understand the consequences of what you are doing, you should be allowed to clear around, and clean off to a certain extent, gravestones that are relevant to you. Be aware that lichens, moss and overhanging greenery can help to protect the stone; that sometimes the lichen and moss are actually helping to hold some less stable stones together and if you remove them the stone may fall apart in front of your eyes; that if you scrub at a stone you may end up with the same result; and then proceed!
I have heard of people using chalk, or crayon over thin paper, to rub gently over a stone to read the letters - not sure how effective this is? Might not have to do so much cleaning then...also with digital cameras and software being what they are today, often a photograph can be manipulated to show alot of detail.
Sorry for the mind dump ;D
Prue
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Wonderful Paul!!!! ;D ;D
I voted No. 2, but I would only clean a headstone if I was pretty certain it was 'one of mine' and needed to be able to read the inscription for confirmation.
Jill
I'm with you on this one Jill :D
Jan
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If I suspect it is mine I just do enough to read the text.
Luckily any I've found only needed very minor light brushing. If the stone has laminer splitting then I wouldn't touch it.
I bet you would get a different response from a Rare Lichen Forum.
PAm
;D
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If more people would volunteer to do MI recording, together with digital photographs, then gravestones will be preserved forever and discussions such as this will not be needed. The county FHSs are desperate to get this done and it is not too onerous - it is far easier to read a carved inscription than decipher the scrawl of an aged clergyman with arthritis and/or manic depression (having transcribed the records of a certain local early Victorian vicar who exhibited the symptoms of both afflictions, I can testify to the scaleof the problem).
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I'm with you Gracland No 2
Whats the point in having a stone if you cannot read it.
Wellie
I was not going to comment on this subject again but the above question keeps recurring.
The answer is very simple, a gravestone or grave marker as they used to be called marks the spot where a person is buried. Early markers carried no inscriptions and many where simply in the form of a mound or a pile of stones, gradually the idea of placing a wooden or stone marker at the head end of the plot developed but at first these were not engraved. It is only comparatively recently that gravestones have been engraved, most graveyards in England will contain a few stones which never bore an inscription.
Cheers
Guy
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A . so why do we write information on a stone ?
Answer ;so it can Be read by others passing !!
B. What happens if Moss etc grows over it ?
Answer ; it become useless for its purpose of telling information
So if it's useless a ,why have Theses stones B, Why not just have a meadow there full of wild flowers that can Mowed Once or Twice a year !! ???
This would cut down on the cost of maintaining the Cem / church yard ect !!
Easy to mow than Dodging all these stone
So may be now we should start a new poll ,
WHY HAVE CEMETERIES WHY NOT JUST A FEILD !! :o :o
Not that i agree on this at all but we Do need to see the Info on theGrave Or get rid of them as there no use then !! ??? ???
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I voted option 2, but I think...no I know, i would be very careful. No scrubbing brushes and so on, just gentle removal of anything that obscures the wording.
We are having a bit of a family debate about graves. I have a week off next week and want to go around the likely graveyards of my family. My husband says it's too peculiar and certainly not suitable for the children. I went once before with them when they were little and he claims that I have caused them irrepairable harm!!
He is only joking...I think. My parents often used to show me interesting graves when I was a child and we are all fi...hm. He might have a point after all!
Seriously, though - graves are so poignant, what IS the point if you can't read the inscription. I certainly want mine to be read when the time comes.
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A . so why do we write information on a stone ?
Answer ;so it can Be read by others passing !!
B. What happens if Moss etc grows over it ?
Answer ; it become useless for its purpose of telling information
So if it's useless a ,why have Theses stones B, Why not just have a meadow there full of wild flowers that can Mowed Once or Twice a year !! ???
This would cut down on the cost of maintaining the Cem / church yard ect !!
Easy to mow than Dodging all these stone
So may be now we should start a new poll ,
WHY HAVE CEMETERIES WHY NOT JUST A FEILD !! :o :o
Not that i agree on this at all but we Do need to see the Info on theGrave Or get rid of them as there no use then !! ??? ???
There are many books and papers written on just that subject.
One of the main reasons for inscriptions on tombstone is as a release of the emotions of the partners or children of the deceased.
One may as well ask why coffin plates are inscribed when no one will see them after the coffin is buried.
The second part of your reply is far more alarming and in fact was how many thought in the 1960s when many graveyards were cleared of the bulk of memorials to allow the mechanical grass cutters room to work.
Others thought it was better to re-arrange the stones in a more ordered fashion and stones were removed from the graves they marked to allow the graveyard to be better aligned with the stones standing in order rather than marking the specific grave.
However on of the strongest reasons for not cleaning a gravestone is in most cases it belongs to someone else and you have no business touching it.
Cheers
Guy
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I have a couple of thoughts on this one:
1. Firstly, I am strongly in favour of cleaning up family graves. Here where I live, we have done two now. The sites looked very shabby and unkempt before, and now they look as though someone cares about their ancestors. Furthermore, the inscriptions give some valuable information about the people which we have incorporated into our research.
2. The cemetery is becoming increasingly popular and a local historian does tours. I know he sometimes stops at one of our graves, since gggrandmother was a prominent citizen. The inscriptions are readable now for interested members of the public, and as above, I like to have the grave looking as though someone cares (which I do!) for other people to look at.
3. When I was in England, I went looking for the only grave I believed I could find. I found it OK, but it just had a wooden style monument which was rotting away, and any inscription had long since disappeared. I was bitterly disappointed. It really IS important that when descendants come looking, they should be able to find and read their ancestors' memorials.
MarieC
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:D MarieC Well said
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I recently found a grave containing/referrring to a few ancestors, but could not read all the text. I gently rubbed the inscription with a large chalk (the sort designed for toddlers) and stood slightly to the side so that the indentations were in shadow. Hey presto! A lovely clear reading was possible. Having taken a digital photograph or two, I then poured a bottle of water over the chalk thus removing it without rubbing. This was far more effective, and less potentially damaging, than cleaning up the stone.
Dimps
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Nick as you probably know i did/do M.I's (now in the Armed forces)I have tried to encourage people do M.I of Merchant seamen in there local cemetery.No one has taken me up on it yet.It took me three summers to get What i have, I was rewarded last week when a lady in Australia Joined Rootchat especially to contact me by P.M. To let me know that i had found her G.Grandfathers Grave. It was broken when it fell long ago,luckily she had a photo.She has other members in the same cemetery I now hope to find these graves,in fact i may have already seen them.This person is the first one to contact me in regard to the Merchant seaman M.I .I have thought many times i am wasting my time.No one will ever claim one.This person made my day ;D The only reason i started was because both my grandfathers were Merchant sea men.One a Commander in The R.N.R.So you see it is rewarding in the end and i do enjoy doing it, even though i sometimes wish i had the training of a trapeze artist ;D
Celia
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Hi Celia - just noticed your reply. What a wonderful story.
One other point that suddenly occurred to me and that I feel I should share. Whilst it may look tempting to clear vegetation from graves and memorials, be very careful, especially where you are not just dealing with a simple headstone. The root system of a weed or plant will start to push a memorial apart and the simple act of removing it can cause serious damage. The correct treatment (if any is absilutely needed) is to apply weedkiller to the appropriate vegetation. If this succeeds in killing the target, then the memorial can recover gradually. Ivy can sometimes come away with the outer surface of the headstone, removing the inscription forever.
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Hi Nick
we dont have many churchyards in Wirral so dont have a poblem with weeds and trees :D I dont think churches are under any obligation to look after graves or the stones.That as said previously by another, is up to the relatives.Sadly there may not be anyone left to look after it or they dont know it there.If they do they may not be interested in thier past.It IS UP TO THE CHURCH to keep the churchyard in good order by doing the gardening ;D
I dont have a problem because the cem i use is council.
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Hi Celia
Modern graveyards are generally municipally owned and tended by the local authority as you say. However, many older MIs are in churchyards and will generally have their grass cut by the local council, who will also visit once or twice a year to prune trees. Individual tombs can get neglected. As both a churchwarden and family history researcher, I try to consider the possibility of people wanting to view a grave or MI and have a go at excessive vegetation on a regular basis. Unfortunately not everybody has been so attentive in the past and several tombs have been damaged by the growth of sycamore roots. Prevention being better than cure, I just wanted to share the point about the impact of root systems and over zealous weeding with others.
Am off to see my grandfather's grave for the first time in two weeks or so. I hope it is such nice surroundings as the one in your picture.
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For advice on cleaning and reading gravestones from an expert see the two articles by Brian J. Cantwell for the RSAI and the Bray Historical Record. These are reprinted in the Memorials of the Dead CD and freely available on www.iancantwell.com
Yours
Ian Cantwell
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I have had quite a lot to do with cemeteries and headstones and I do agree that they, in the main, should be left alone if at all possible. If it HAS to be cleaned to read, soap and water is all that is required, and a soft brush. Remember that lichen is actually protected, so to remove is technically illegal.
When you consider the age of some of our cemeteries, do we really want them looking pristine and new? I think not. An ancient cemetery should look ancient, and not new.
Billysgran
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I found the grave of my g. g. g. grandmother recently. There were the remains of a wooden cross lying face down on it. A more recent stone memorial had been placed there by her son-in-law. When I lifted the cross up, I found that it contained the names of some of her children who had been buried with her. I had been unable to find their whereabouts until I checked the cross. I used the only thing I had available to clean off the mud - a tissue. When I had finished, I replaced the cross in exactly the same place. Hopefully, I've caused no damage and the soil will protect it for another few decades.
I do clean the headstones of family members and have done ever since I took my aunt to her grandmother's grave. She was so upset by the state of it that I promised to keep it clear for others to be able to read it and as a mark of respect to her. I also clean my grandparent's grave at least once per year. I think the state of many of our cemeteries leaves a lot to be desired. European cemeteries put ours to shame as they're so well tended.
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I don't think you can compare European cemeteries with English ones, because you simply do not know where the funding for this comes from. There are a lot of things to consider. Just over seven years ago I set up a Friends group to save an ancient cemetery, one of the earliest in England. since then I have not only read a lot, I have had considerable conversation with the Council in question, and therefore I know many things that others do not.
In Europe, the families look after their own headstone. In England, for some odd reason, families believe the headstone is the Council's responsibility, which it is not. In Europe, there is huge respect for the elderly of the family - you cannot say the same about England generally. In Europe on 1 November, which is All Souls Day, the families all go to the cemetery, this does not happen in England. For years, no-one has really bothered about this problem (save a few of us) and it is only since the advent of family history that people have decided to visit graves of our forebears. For this reason alone, you cannot compare England with Europe. The Council I have had lots of contact with are very sympathetic to the cause, however, Bereavement Services get a meagre amount of funding out of the Council Budget - it is the same for all councils. They have to put the bulk of their money into new and frequently used cemeteries, not closed ones. This is perfectly understandable, if regrettable. The general public's idea of restoring an ancient cemetery is to have it all looking like a war cemetry - all clean and pristine, which is out of touch with what they really should look like. There is no good having a cemetery which opened in 1836 looking brand new - it is simply not right. There are rules in cemetery, unwritten, but they are there because of conservation. Too much cleaning of headstones is not what is desirable. In Bristol, at Arnos Vale which is a wonderful cemetery, Conservation will not allow them to remove ivy from certain headstones - pourely because the ivy prevents the headstone from being seen, and at the same time, prevents the headstone from becoming the target of vandals. I am not saying I agree with this, but I can understand it, having been involved so heavily with 'my' cemetery. There are many issues and I could be here all night writing about it, which I do't intend to be. All I would say is that in cleaning of headstones, please bear in mind the age of the cemetery, only use products (if necessary) that are environmentally friendly, and if in any doubt, ask either the local Council or Conservation.
Billysgran
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Hello. This is to billysgran. How do you clean the headstone? With soap and water ? I am trying to read my great great great grandfather who was laid to rest in 1895 . I have very little time and need a very quick and effective method. Can you or anyone eles help? The first few post seem much too involved. Thank you in advance
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Hello. This is to billysgran. How do you clean the headstone? With soap and water ? I am trying to read my great great great grandfather who was laid to rest in 1895 . I have very little time and need a very quick and effective method. Can you or anyone eles help? The first few post seem much too involved. Thank you in advance
If you have little time leave it alone.
You if you are in a hurry you will probably do damage to the stone, you could even completely remove the inscription if the stone has frost damage.
Cheers
Guy
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Hello. This is to billysgran. How do you clean the headstone? With soap and water ? I am trying to read my great great great grandfather who was laid to rest in 1895 . I have very little time and need a very quick and effective method. Can you or anyone eles help? The first few post seem much too involved. Thank you in advance
There are certain products on the market which are environmentally friendly, but they are very expensive. Soap and water and a soft brush is the best thing. it will not be perfect if it is very dirty, but should enable you to read the inscription. You may find that if the grave is in a cemetery, a local society may have recorded the inscription anyway, that is always worth a try. A lot depends on what the stone is made of. If it's granite, you will be very lucky, but I suspect it will not be. Just take it carefully and don't scrub the stone away - some delaminate very easily. Best of luck, I know how much this kind of thing means, I am a genealogist myself.
Billysgran
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If you take a powerful torch with you, and shine the light across the surface of the stone, any indentations will be clearer. I normally take at least two high-resolution digital photos of a stone taken from different angles, preferably with light shining across the face of the stone (don't use flash !). Then when I get back, I can use a Photoshop type program to try to enhance the images I've obtained. I would not advise cleaning any stone unless it is so covered that it is totally unreadable but what I would ALWAYS do is to clear Ivy and other creeping plants completely away, because Ivy will cause more damage to a stone than Lichen or Moss ever will.
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Thank you to all who took the time to answer. I will be quite careful,for I believe those who came before us has the right to be heard. Thank you again
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Safety is the first thing as sinking over grown graves and unstable vertical headstones. If you break a leg on the unsafe council land like pot hole in a path you would claim so think about it. You need to ask what you can do or not with the church/chapel or council first.
Chalk or wet the stone clear clean water ! photo at different times of the day and angles or a rub with wet moss or remove wet moss on graves AND RUB THE STONE with someone else with you INCASE OF ACCIDENT and GET permission FIRST.