RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Down => Topic started by: HistoryTeam on Sunday 30 October 16 19:56 GMT (UK)
-
For some years I have been trying to reconcile some seemingly irreconcilable family data and would value some help.
Henry, Edgar, Knox, Wilkins, my Grandfather, was born 1882 Dungannon. His father was Henry, Edgar, Knox Wilkins was a Seaman and his mother was Sarah Jane Jeffers from Carlow. Despite extensive research I have been unable to discover a marriage between Henry & Sarah. Henry senior is absent from the 1901 & 1911 Census where Sarah describes herself as a Widow and uses the surname ‘Wilkinson’ (1901) and Wilkins (1911). In records Henry senior’s occupation is variously described as ‘a Seaman’; ‘an Army Colour Sgt; & a Staff Sgt Militia. A primary address for Sarah was 8 Palmerston Road, Belfast.
In Dundonald Cemetery, Belfast there is a family grave for Sarah above d1926, Violet Edith Edwards d1920, her mother Violet Sadie Edwards d1920 (nee Rice – father a Sea Captain) and Annie Wilkins d1916 (nee Matier) my Grandfather’s wife who, along with her family were associated with the Salvation Army, Dee Street, Belfast. A primary address for Wesley Edwards (m1906) and family was 2 Moorgate Street, Belfast.
Family tradition and some memorabilia inform me that the Wilkins & Rice families were related in some way – but how? I have discovered a Sarah Jane Jeffers married to a Thomas Rice 1871 in St Paul’s C of I, Dublin North but haven’t proved a connection with my family. Possibly this was a first marriage for Sarah Jane Jeffers?
-
Not sure why you've put commas in Henry, Edgar, Knox, Wilkins but you've already a few topics for this family :-\
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=252815.msg1402103#msg1402103
"My wife's grandfather Henry Edgar Knox Wilkins..."
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=219662.msg1147525#msg1147525
"my great grandmother Sarah Jane Jeffers ... married Henry Wilkins..."
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=152885.msg705689#msg705689
"my Gt. Grandfather (Henry Wilkins married to Sarah, Jane Wilkins {nee Jeffers}..."
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=152900.msg705772#msg705772
"... 2nd Daughter Annie (my grandmother) born Aug1888 died Feb 1916 married to Henry, Edgar, Knox, Wilkins. ..."
It helps to post links to the information you've already found to save us from having to search for the same information.
If Sarah Jane Jeffers marriage to Henry Wilkins was indeed her 2nd the marriage certificate should list her as widowed or divorced.
-
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01irx/
on the birth of Thomas Stewart Rice 1878 it states father deceased
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1878/02979/2091523.pdf
-
difficult to follow so heres three pointers
1. from www.ancestryireland.com
RICE VIOLET SADIE 1906 father THOMAS Antrim
your Dublin marriage gave Thomas, so do we have Capt Thomas Rice to follow up?
he is not listed in http://www.irishmariners.ie/searchdatabase.php?
on ancestry. co.uk All UK and Ireland, Masters and Mates Certificates, 1850-1927 there are four results for Thomas Rice, you need to be a member to look them up
2. from http://www.belfastcity.gov.uk/community/burialrecords/burialrecords.aspx
Henry Edgar Knox Wilkins b 1882 Dungannon.Co Tyrone C of I ,d buried Dundonald Cemetery 21 june 1949 last residence 6 Lisavon Parade Belfast before hospital his burial plot includes
Thomas Wilkins b ~1913....
Catherine Patton Wilkins b 1914...
3. Henry Edgar Knox Wilkins b~ 1866 his army history and his travels and missing census need clarity the records might be among Findmypast British Army Service Records. Did you end up with his time calendar
good luck onwards
-
I left out that Thomas Wilkins b1913 burial gives his last residence as Lisavon Parade, because I didn’t wish to bring my offering to close to modern times, Its time you looked closely at all the connections living there. (I picked up somewhere a Thomas Wilkins played for Belfast celtic in the 1930s
Today I have spotted you opening the same query on Rootsweb and maryoakes giving you details of 1912 marriage at Belmont Presbyterian church in where there maybe more records. Her transcription says Henry Edgar Junior was a seaman. He should be in the irish mariners website
good luck onwards
-
There are lots of pieces in this puzzle missing/incorrect so it's not easy to make sense of the information that we have so far.
WILKINS
Missing marriage (to Sarah Jane presumably before 1882) & death for Henry Edgar Knox Wilkins
RICE
Death for Thomas Rice c1878- millwright & engineer
Is this his death? Thomas Rice (age 28) died 27 June 1877 – 1 James St. https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/ff05330351210
Birth Violet Sarah Rice c1881 Belfast
Violet Sarah Rice in 1901 census
Death for a Richard Rice, lunatic asylum superintendent
Is this his death? Richard Rice (79) 1890 Dublin South https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/35d82517667932
JEFFERS
Death for William Jeffers travelling agent
Is this his death? William Jeffers (age 53) 1 Synott Place d.12 May 1877 https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/bcac2a0351169
So, History Team, do you have any of the above details already?
I have found other bits that tie into the family but no point in posting until I know what you might already know
-
Thank you all for your interest and help.
As requested I’ve tried to briefly list some of the details I can be confident of.
I believe I have identified two main areas I need to resolve in my research:
1. Was there actually a marriage between HEK Wilkins (Sen) and SJ Jeffers? When? Where?
2. What is the Wilkins/Rice connection? Family tradition indicates there was a connection.
The only HEK Wilkins (Sen) details are from HEK Wilkins (Jun) birth record as in last post.
1901 Census - 27 Constance Street, Belfast – Sarah Jane Wilkinson (Widow, 50) (Co Carlow) & son Henry Edgar Wilkinson (Dungannon, 19).
1906 - According to her ‘Parchment Registration Certificate’& ‘Benefit Certificate’ from The Shipping Federation Belfast Registry Office on 8 Jan 1906, Violet Rice was 26, a Stewardess, b1880, and living 15 Victoria Gardens, Cave Hill Road, Belfast.
1906 - Marriage Certificate for Violet Sadie Rice & Wesley Edwards indicates her father to be Thomas Rice (Sea Captain). Marriage was from 14 Keatley Street, Belfast.
1907 - Belfast Street Directory indicates Sarah Wilkins as Householder at 14 Keatley Street, Belfast.
1911 Census – 8 Palmerston Road, Belfast – Sarah Jane Wilkins (Widow, 60) (Co Carlow) & son Henry Wilkins (Co Tyrone, 26)
I suspect Violet Sadie Rice was Sarah Jane Jeffer’s daughter to a previous marriage. However, the Thomas Rice/Sarah Jane Jeffers record discoveries I have made (Dublin area), though tantalizing, don’t seem to link reliably to either of my Wilkins or Rice. Details of Sarah Jane Jeffers’ movement from Co Carlow - (Dublin?) - Dungannon - Belfast seem illusive.
-
Any help ?
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01isg/
-
Still very much a work in progress but here's what I've got so far (before looking at links dathai just posted).
RICE
Starting with the marriage certificate, Thomas Rice is listed as millwright and engineer which may not mean he was a seaman as Violet Rice's records indicate (more about her later). His father Richard Rice, Superintendent Lunatic Department of South Dublin Union, is fairly easy to find.
Several newspaper articles mention him as a male attendant there (superintendent is maybe an exaggeration) with the latest one I found being when he was awarded a pension of £50/year after 20 years service there (Freeman's Journal, 8 Nov.1878).
Probable death: Richard Rice (79) 1890 Dublin South https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/35d82517667932
Hopefully will soon be viewable online.
Thomas Rice
possible death: Thomas Rice (age 28) died 27 June 1877 – 1 James St. https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/ff05330351210
(remember this address when I get to Jeffers family)
Thomas Rice and Sarah Jeffers had at least 3 children together-
Marriage https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/1e1f010565311
1. Sarah Jane Rice (May 1874 Dublin)
Birth: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGCK-PZG
2. Thomas Benjamin Rice (Apr.1876 Rathdown-Jan.1877 Rathdown)
Birth: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FPT8-39M
Burial https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/be8a9e0351211
3. Thomas Stuart Rice (Jan.1878 Dublin)- more on him later as he'll need a separate post!
Birth: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FG24-KYD
So, if Thomas Rice died June 1877 (while Sarah Jane was pregnant with Thomas Stuart), then Violet Rice (born c1880) is, if her child, likely illegitimate. I can't find a birth anywhere in Ireland for her under Rice, Jeffers or Wilkins. Violet's marriage says her father was Thomas Rice, captain, but perhaps she thought Thomas Rice was her father and got his occupation confused with that of Henry Wilkins.
continued...
-
Thomas Stuart Rice (1878 Dublin), son of Thomas Rice & Sarah Jane Jeffers, m.(1904) Mary Paulina O’Toole (1881-1972)
Marriage (1904 London) https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:26QG-SV1
1911 census https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW5X-673
1924 arrested Coventry as Patrick Kelly- numerous aliases & previous arrests, occupation hairdresser
1. Dudley Stuart Rice (c1906 Chiswick-9 July 1958) m.(1936) Vera Margery Smith
2. Cathleen Colina Stuart Rice (c1908 Chiswick-aft.1911)
Birth https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2FVK-JK1
Violet Sadie Rice (c1880 Belfast-1920) m.(1906 Belfast Registry Office) Wesley Scott Edwards (d.1947), 2 Moorgate St, Belfast
Marriage- 14 Keatley St Belfast (1907 directory- Sarah Wilkins) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/ae408a7219239
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Pottinger__part_of_/Moorgate_Street/228880
Wesley https://ssl.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=8367.4408
1. Wesley S. Edwards (c1908 Belfast-1970) m. Elizabeth Mccoy (d.1981)
Wesley https://ssl.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=8369.6856
Elizabeth https://ssl.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=8455.4710
2. Violet Edith Edwards (1911-1920)
3. Constance Eileen Elizabeth (1916-1989) m. John Geoffrey Bannatyne (26 Sept.1907 Faversham, Kent, Eng.-7 July 1953 Belfast)- 2 sons, 2 dau
John https://ssl.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=8569.12035
Bannatyne John Geoffrey of 14 Avoniel Parade Belfast assistant foreman plumber died 7 July 1953 at Royal Victoria Hospital Belfast Administration Belfast 23 September to Constance Bannatyne the widow. Effects £773 5s. 6d.
Constance https://ssl.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=8497.7852
continued...
-
JEFFERS
Both 1901 and 1911 census give Sarah Jane as born Co. Carlow and Church of Ireland-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Pottinger/Constance_Street/1216565
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Victoria__part_of_/Palmerstown_Road/231433
If you search the census for Jeffers as surname and put in Carlow as place of birth they all seem to be Church of Ireland.
Sarah Jane's marriage to Thomas Rice lists her father as William Jeffers, travelling agent, which may explain how she got from Carlow to Dublin.
Possible death- William Jeffers (age 53) 1 Synott Place d.12 May 1877
https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/bcac2a0351169
could this be him earlier?
1862- James’ St- 99 Jeffers, Mr. William, 18l.
http://www.libraryireland.com/Dublin-Street-Directory-1862/739.php
continued...
-
WILKINS
Henry Edgar Knox Wilkins is probably the most elusive one here as the only mention of him is in regard to his son with the same name. I wondered if Sarah Jane made up the name when she registered son Henry's birth and his surname was Knox but had no lunk finding anyone named Henry Edgar Knox either.
However, "staff sergeant militia" and the Dungannon location in 1882 for Sarah Jane and her son Henry could tie in with such an occupation and explain how she got from Dublin to Dungannon and presumably from there to Belfast.
1880- militia mentioned here in regard to accommodation-
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1880/jun/25/army-auxiliary-forces-the-mid-ulster
Henry Edgar Knox Wilkins (17 June 1882 Dungannon-1949) m.(1912) Annie Matier/Mateer (1888-1916)
Birth Railway Terrace, Dungannon https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/3884e61715336
Marriage https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/cd7b3c7074431
Death (Annie) https://ssl.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=7953.4302
1. Henry Edgar Knox Wilkins (22 Nov.1912 Belfast-aft.1949)
Birth https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/f537993716865
2. Thomas Wilkins (1913-1993)
3. Stillborn dau. (1916)
https://ssl.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=7647.31481
continued...
-
So, possible timeline-
c1853 Sarah Jane Jeffers born Co. Carlow
? c1862 William Jeffers living in Dublin
1871 Sarah Jane Jeffers married Thomas Rice in Dublin
May 1874 sarah Jane Rice born Dublin
Apr.1876 Thomas Benjamin Rice born Dublin
Jan.1877 Thomas Benjamin Rice died Dublin
? May 1877 William Jeffers died Dublin
? June 1877 Thomas Rice died Dublin
Jan.1878 Thomas Stuart Rice born Dublin
c1880 Violet Rice born Belfast?
June 1882 HEK Wilkins born Dungannon
?1890 Richard Rice died Dublin
Still lots of gaps and unanswered questions (when rest of certificates are viewable online some things might be cleared up or eliminated).
Where was Thomas Stuart Rice from 1878 until his marriage in 1904? In Dublin with relatives or with mother Sarah Jane in Dungannon & Belfast?
Didn't find a death or marriage for his older sister Sarah yet so not sure what happened to her.
-
Just found another little tidbit-
Belfast Newsletter, 18 Jan.1894: ASSAULTS constable Quinn placed in the dock Charles Maginnis on the charge of having committed an aggravated assault on Sarah Jane Wilkins by striking her on the head with a tumbler. The case having been proved, the accused was sent to the house of correction for two calendar months. (the court case was heard the 17th Jan.).
-
Many thanks aghadowey for all this very interesting information.
I have Annie Wilkin's death certificate but it didn't mention anything about a child birth related illness - so this was an excellent discovery as we never knew anything about a baby. The baby died on 8 Feb 1916 and was buried (City Cemetery) on 10 February. Annie herself died on 10 Feb 1916 and was buried 12 Feb 1916 in Dundonald Cemetery.
You mention that new records are coming on line. I was wondering what these records are and when are they likely to become available?
That last entry re the court case is a very interesting one!!!
-
The rest of the births, marriages and deaths (images) are supposed to eventually come on line and some of the possible events I mentioned earlier will then be there.