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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Antrim => Topic started by: therave on Friday 21 October 16 14:22 BST (UK)
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Lina Mitchel m John Walsh 1834 Randalstown Drummaul, her address Dunsilly, his Milltown, no further info from marriage record.
Lina has been recorded as Lena, Selina, Helena, and Helen, but I believe Selina to be correct.
Mitchell-Walsh known children, all bapd Randalstown Drummaul:
John 1835, Dunsilly, sp John Neeson and Isabel Walsh
Daniel 1838, Antrim, sp Francis Mullaghan and Catherine Walsh
Elizabeth 1841, Steeple, Bernard.McLaverty and Mary Connor
James 1843, Steeple, sp Daniel Walsh and Isabella Walsh, m Margaret Frazer Belfast
Margaret 1846, Steeple, sp James Coyle and Isabella Walsh
Agnes 1849, Antrim, sp Isabella Walsh and Roseanne O'Kane
Isabella 1849, same as above
Michael 1852, Antrim, sp Michael Walsh and Isabella Walsh, m Anne McGrath (err Magurk) Belfast
Margaret 1854, Antrim, sp Catherine Walsh
Selina 1857, sp Martha Coyles
John Mitchell 1861, Barnfield, sp Margaret McQuillan
possibly but doubtful Robert 1840, no mother listed, Muckamore, no sp
Grateful for any leads!
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Griffiths Valuation for 1862 lists a John Walsh on plot 1b in Steeple, Antrim town. It was a house and garden. The revaluation records show him remaining as tenant till 1898 when he was replaced by Robert Heany.
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... Grateful for any leads!
What sort of leads?
Previous topic on Margaret Frazer/James Walsh-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=639823.msg4868289#msg4868289
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Not knowing the area well, I found info about the places you mention. Current Google maps show Kilbegs road running into Milltown road about1 mile nw of Antrim town. Could her address Dunsilly be Dún Cille Bige (see Downkillybegs (Dún Cille Bige) Drummaul. Could his address Milltown, in Killybegs Drummaul , but now might be located in Antrim civil parish.
Around 1834 neither last name is listed in the Tithe Applotment Books for Drummaul civil parish see http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/antrim/tithe-applotments/drummaul-parish.php#
Around 1833 neither last name is listed in the Tithe Applotment Books for Antrim civil parish see http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/antrim/tithe-applotments/drummaul-parish.php#
You mention baptisms at Randalstown the downloadable quide to PRONI church records gives the lists as below., but you will need to look it up to copy their micro film or fiche holdings wjich they also list together with if any records are in local custody{ie the church itself etc} PRONI also has the same sort of information for Antrim civil parish.
DRUMMAUL, CO. ANTRIM
C.I. Drummaul (Connor diocese)
Baptisms, 1823-1989; marriages, 1823-46 and 1862- 1992; burials, 1823-1900; vestry minutes, 1851-70.
Vestry minutes, 1851-; preachers’ books, 1891-.
M. Randalstown
Baptisms, 1829-1987; circuit schedule books, 1860- 94; membership register, 1826-91.
P. Old Randalstown
Baptisms, 1853-1944; marriages, 1845-1922; marriage notices, 1962-2001.
P. 1st Randalstown
Marriages, 1845-1934; marriage notices, 1869-2001.
P. 2nd Randalstown
Baptisms, 1850-1986; marriages, 1845-1936; marriage notice books, 1869-1998; session minutes, 1850-95.
R.C. Drummaul (Randalstown) (Down and Connor diocese) [Includes the civil parishes of Drummaul and Cranfield and up to 1873 the parish of Antrim]
Baptisms, 1825-81; marriages, 1825-84; deaths, 1837- 48.
I cant help further, good luck onwards
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Thanks so much for your help Elwyn and Ballyalti!
Did not know John Walsh (or possibly his son John Mitchell Walsh) remained in Steeple until 1898. Hadn't realized I could view Re-valuation records until I read your (Elwyn) post. Thanks for that.
It can be very confusing for someone unfamiliar with the area so your efforts (Ballyalti) at pinpointing their locations are greatly appreciated. Thought I had seen both last names in tithe records for the region, but I'll have to renew my subscription to confirm.
Does anyone know where RCs would have been buried in the mid 1800s if they lived in Steeple townland, Drummaul Parish? Would that place also apply to residents of Milltown (Killybegs)?
Also, can anyone tell me where house 1b Steeple on GV would have been? Wondering whether house numbers followed a logical pattern back then as they do today and if it were closer to Antrim Town or Kells.
Thanks again for taking the time!
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An OS map 6inch to the mile, the 1st edition, 1st revision date~ 1860 , but marked up by 1862s exists, showing the townland of Steeple and with just two readable property numbers 1,2 , 3a,3b,3c, 3d leaving about 6 buildings unmarked The big house is No!1. the printed book of, GV shows Steeple having 13 buildings with the people in them. one 1f is unoccupied. The info for 1 includes the gates Lodges.
The map is reproduced as part of the Griffith valuation database within the askaboutireland website http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/
John is marked 1b as you know. His landlord the living in the big house is George J Clarke
which is part of the Viscount Massereene and Ferrard’s estate so other maps might exist.
Also living in or Antrim town is Hannah Walsh in Paties Lane Townparks map ref 96 14 and Margaret Walsh at Bow Lane townparks map ref 96 72
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I used to live near Steeple. The big house in the estate later became the council offices. Today it’s still there but boarded up. The land around it is a public park, and the round tower and at least 1 gate lodge is still there. There’s a couple of schools on some of the land now too. I don’t think any of the original labourers cottages, such as your ancestor would have occupied, still exist. I can’t recall seeing any.
Steeple is not near Kells at all. It’s part of Antrim town. In the mid 1800s it would have been on the edge of the town but when Antrim was expanded in the 1960s, it became part of the new town.
Someone would only appear in the tithes if they had a bit of land. So farmers would be in but most labourers would not. The cottage in Steeple looks to be a labourer/agricultural worker’s cottage and so I’d be surprised if they were listed in the tithes.
Regarding burial places, at one time Drummaul was one large RC parish which stretched from Randalstown to Antrim town. However as Antrim expanded the parish was split into two (Drummaul and Antrim) around 1873. So today someone living in Steeple would be part of Antrim RC parish, not Drummaul.
There’s an RC graveyard at Drummaul parish church in Randalstown. However there’s also a graveyard at Milltown, there is a very old graveyard at Cranfield which is used by some RC families in the area, there is Drummaul Old graveyard (in the townland of Drummaul), there is a graveyard on the Shane’s Castle estate and Antrim council has a graveyard which is used by all denominations. I am not sure when it opened but it’s nearly full so presumably has been there some time. (Antrim RC church opened about 1873 but doesn’t have a graveyard attached). It was up to the family to decide where to bury someone, and it wasn’t always the same place as they attended church. I would start with Drummaul RC graveyard but you might need to try some of the others I have mentioned.
For someone living in Milltown, I’d start there and then try Drummaul RC.
Be aware that in general the RC church doesn’t keep burial records, and that the majority of people couldn’t afford a gravestone so if your ancestor(s) are in an unmarked grave dating to the 1800s, there’s unlikely to be any record of where they are buried at all.
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Absolutely fabulous information Elwyn! With so few records from that time I think I must start searching cemeteries if I want to get any further. Though John Walsh and Lina Mitchell had a dozen children I can only confirm the lines of two of them, both in Belfast from 1860s, so I'm now looking to see if some may have died youngish or remained in Steeple. Understand there may be no grave markers, but will check to see if any records are held by the burial sites you kindly provided.
The address given for the birth of last child, John Mitchell Walsh, in 1861 was Barnfield. I can see a Barnfield Road in Lisburn but this doesn't jive with any other information I currently hold. Do you know if Barnfield correlates to a location in Antrim Town? My guess at present, since learning he continued tenancy in Steeple until 1898, is that it may have been a specific area on that estate.
There is a John Mitchell in GV living in Leitrim Drummaul. Do you know if that townland has been known by another name?
Thanks again!
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Sorry I have never heard of Barnfield. I live locally but it’s not a place name that I have ever come across. You could try the Randalstown Historical Society or the Antrim Historical Society to see if anyone there knows of it. It’s likely to be a smaller part of a townland but must have fallen into disuse. It’ll be in the Antrim/Randalstown area because if it was outside the RC parish of Drummaul, normally the priest would have noted which parish it was in.
Leitrim has always been known by that townland name, as far as I know. It still exists today. John Mitchell in Griffiths had left in 1866, according to the revaluation records. His was an ag. labourer’s cottage.
I had a look at the Drummaul Parish History (“Sweet Drummaul” written by Patrick O’Kane in about 1991). I don’t see any specific mention to either the Walsh or Mitchell families, eg as subscribers to the various works on the church.
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Will check with historical societies as recommended and post any result so as not to keep other readers hanging! Thanks again for your insight and willingness to share.
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I do not seem to have any Mitchel connections in either my Henry or Gawn famillies but both sets of ancestors had adjacent farms in Dunsilly. They were however Presbyterian or Church of Ireland.
On modern maps you should be able to find the Dunsilly Roundabout which I think crosses one of the farms in my family. My impression is that there would not have been many houses in the area.
It was not unusual for a woman to return to her mother's home for the birth of her first child, so it does look as if Selina's parents were living in Dunsilly in 1835.
Cheers
Linda
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Thanks so much Linda! I have been thinking that the Mitchells were not Catholic, but that is really just a feeling. There are no obvious Mitchells listed as sponsors at any of the Walsh childrens' baptisms and I've been unsuccessful linking Mitchell females to the non-Walsh sponsors.
Have seen COI, Presbyterian, Moravian, Methodist, and only a very few RC Mitchells in the Antrim and Ballymena area. Leaning toward Presbyterian at the moment.
Believe Lina Mitchell's father was named John as a son was named John Mitchell Walsh. Have you seen any land records for John Mitchell in Dunsilly, or any Mitchell for that matter? The names Robert and George could also be connected. It may be coincidence but there was a Robert and a George Mitchell seen on two street directories living on the same streets James Walsh, son of Lina Mitchell and John Walsh, had listed on his childrens' birth registrations (Belfast). Just putting it out there!
Have you read the book Living in Dunsilly: A History of the Donnan Family in Antrim? Was wondering if it might be worth the investment.
Again, I really appreciate your response. Will keep the Henrys and Gawns in mind while I search. :)
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I am not an expert on RC marriage law but my understanding is that whilst civil law in Ireland allowed mixed marriages from 1792 in the Church of Ireland, under RC Canon Law priests weren’t allowed to conduct them until some time in the 1830s. I’d expect both parties to the 1834 marriage to have been RC.
Regarding land records, you need to know what profession the Mitchells and Walshs each had. If they were farmers, they’d be leasing from the O’Neill estate, and their records for 1829 and 1831 are in PRONI (T1024/1 & 2) . However I don’t see either surname in the 1834 tithe applotment records (which would list most farmers). See: http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/antrim/tithe-applotments/drummaul-parish.php#.WEX6ThR2ug0
So I’d reckon that the families were labourers or servants, in which case they’d just be leasing from a local farmer, or lodging with someone. In either event there aren’t likely to be any paper records for that sort of arrangement. (What occupations are shown for the Dunsilly and Milltown residents, on any relevant marriage or death certificates?)
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I have been looking through my notes from Revaluations etc for Dunsilly but I don't actually have a complete list of the farmers, just the names that interested me.
My 4x gt grandfather Thomas Gawn appears to have moved to Dunsilly from Donegore upon his marriage c1795 to 2nd wife Martha Maxwell. The inference is that the farm belonged to her family. Thomas' daughter from his first marriage, Elizabeth (Betty) Gawn born c1794 married another Dunsilly farmer, William Millar. Their son Thomas Millar married another local, Ann Jane Sterrit.
Martha nee Maxwell may have married another local farmer Andrew Fletcher, after Thomas died in 1822. The marriage was at Mill Row (?) Presbyterian Church in Antrim.
Other names I have noted in the revaluations are Ferguson , Whiteside and Greene.
Cheers
Linda
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Hi, there is an old grave yard in Milltown itself. A lot of the headstones are gone completely and the remaining ones can just about be made out. I have photos of Drumal as I work for the local Council and we maintain these cemeteries.
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Can the graveyard opposite Milltown church in the middle of Antrim be accessed. I am related to the Stirrett family from Dunsilly. I know there are Stirrett graves in Milltown Churchyard but I'd like to take a look at the the graveyard opposite but it seems to be locked and securely fenced.
Mo
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I think it might be Millrow church - not Milltown. Sorry!
Mo
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Hi, yes just jump over the wall. None of the cemeteries have caretakers, its the Council grass cutting teams that have keys or the very rare time there will be a funeral. If it is the old cemetery that you are talking about in the centre of the town, you can climb over or else ring the Council and arrange to have a look around. They should be ok about it.
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Thanks. I might try ringing the council as I don't think I could climb over that fence!!
Mo
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Thanks. I might try ringing the council as I don't think I could climb over that fence!!
Mo
I have been in the old Unitarian churchyard in Antrim. I rang the council offices and collected the key at reception (and later returned it to them). They were very helpful.
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I have the surname Walsh (Antrim) in my tree but may be to late for your research as it's quite recent?
John McAdam Walsh b c 1895 (unsure where)
Married in St. Donnards, Knockbreda, Belfast
https://securesites.belfastcity.gov.uk/pls/live/f?p=102:5:373325506418434::NO::P5_RECORD_ID:8489.7170
Parents James & Ellen (no surname)
Addresses lived at were;
Cheviot Avenue, Victoria Belfast
Ravenscroft Street, Bloomfield, Belfast
If interested please PM me.
Annie
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I work in Antrim & Belmont cemetery so let me know if you need any help. The oldest graves in there would be 1900 onwards.
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Marriage (1920) John McAdam Walsh gives his father as James-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1920/09265/5354504.pdf
Family in 1901 & 1911-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Cromac/McClure_Street/970156
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Pottinger__part_of_/Ravenscroft_Street/229204
John McAdam Walsh born 1895 (mother Ellen Anderson)-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1895/02231/1841065.pdf
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Rosinish:. Thanks so much for taking the time to provide information on your Walsh, but as yet I've not come across this gentleman in my search. Will get back to you if he does pop up.
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Hi therave,
John McAdam Walsh married my g/father's sister i.e. no blood relation to me, just thought I would add it as a possible for your research & of course if you were to find a connection I can give you further info.
Marriage (1920) John McAdam Walsh gives his father as James-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1920/09265/5354504.pdf
Family in 1901 & 1911-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Cromac/McClure_Street/970156
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Pottinger__part_of_/Ravenscroft_Street/229204
John McAdam Walsh born 1895 (mother Ellen Anderson)-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1895/02231/1841065.pdf
aghadowey....
My sincere apologies to you as I never picked up on your reply above & thank you very much as I now have the birth date for John McAdam Walsh & surname for mother (Ellen)...i.e. a very loose end tied up which I never expected! :D
I must have originally found her forename Ellen from the census' but checking my tree I haven't put the source in but it's the only likely place.
I also have the marriage cert. which I purchased back in 2007 which is where I found out his father was James.
John McAdam Walsh & wife Wilhelmina Jude had a son Harold Jeffrey b c1922 & died 2008 but I've yet to find where the 'Jeffrey' derives from although curious but...it's from his maternal line as I've seen it more than once & both of his mother's parents were Scottish ???
Annie
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Hi,
Not sure if you are still on this site but these people you write about John Walsh and Lena Mitchell are my relatives
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Hello Mary,
Welcome to RootsChat :)
I am just looking for the topic that you wished to reply to.
Regards
Sarah
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Hello Mary, I have now attached your reply so that the other folk will be notified of your reply.
Regards
Sarah
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not sure if anyone has mentioned but the National Library of Ireland has RC Parish Records on microfilm viewable online if you know the parish
https://registers.nli.ie/