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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dumfriesshire => Topic started by: bettyespana on Wednesday 19 October 16 20:19 BST (UK)
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My paternal grandmother Emma Evans was born at Kirk Wynd Langholm Dumfries @ 2.30 on 23.Nov 1879.
Parents were George Evans(painter) & Sarah Elizabeth Evans nee Sinclair.
The problem I have got is there is no number or name of the house in Kirk Wynd .
Can anyone help me with this please.
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Hi
It will probably be difficult if it's not on the birth cert as they family are in Carlisle by 1881.
There's this description of Kirk Wynd on Scotlands Places.
http://www.scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/ordnance-survey-name-books/dumfriesshire-os-name-books-1848-1858/dumfriesshire-volume-35/107#zoom=4&lat=523&lon=2418&layers=B
Gadget
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Hi
It will probably be difficult if it's not on the birth cert as they family are in Carlisle by 1881.
There's this description of Kirk Wynd on Scotlands Places.
http://www.scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/ordnance-survey-name-books/dumfriesshire-os-name-books-1848-1858/dumfriesshire-volume-35/107#zoom=4&lat=523&lon=2418&layers=B
Gadget
Thanks for the above info I think this is as near as I am going to get with this.I did actually bring a satellite picture up on google but pinning down the actual property where Emma was born seems a no go.At least I have a description of the area etc.
Thank you again
Betty
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Sorry I couldn't help more but by the ages and places of birth of the other children on the 1881, they weren't in Langholm for very long :-\
Added - no Evans births or deaths in the narrow time period. I've also looked at the 1875 and 1885 Valuation rolls for Kirk Wynd but no real indication from them either.
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Sorry I couldn't help more but by the ages and places of birth of the other children on the 1881, they weren't in Langholm for very long :-\
Added - no Evans births or deaths in the narrow time period. I've also looked at the 1875 and 1885 Valuation rolls for Kirk Wynd but no real indication from them either.
George Evans - moved the family about with his work as a painter & eventually they settled in Salford,Lancashire.I believe he passed away in 1893 & Sarah his wife re-married 1897.
Emma married John Moss in 1900 (my grandparents).My dad was their 13th child.
Emma died in 1935 in Eccles.
regards
Betty
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Hi bettyespana,
After checking the local newspaper index in Langholm it gives the detail only as: Birth at Kirkwynd Langholm on 29th November 1879 a daughter to wife of George Evans painter. I note that the date differs so this was possibly due to an incorrect date given to the newspaper.
Lucy
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Hi Lucy
Just a thought - not sure if George Evans worked like this but there might be adverts in the newspaper advertising his painting services.
Is there any chance of you looking for any - it would be circa 1878-pre-census 1881. Also there might be something in any local directories. Betty - do you have access to these via Ancestory for e.g.?
Gadget
Added - just found a couple of interesting newspaprer reports in which Geroge Evans, house painter, sugggested that 'the working men of Langholm, contribute for a gift for Mr Gladstone - Oct 1879
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Hi Lucy
Just a thought - not sure if George Evans worked like this but there might be adverts in the newspaper advertising his painting services.
Is there any chance of you looking for any - it would be circa 1878-pre-census 1881. Also there might be something in any local directories. Betty - do you have access to these via Ancestory for e.g.?
Gadget
Added - just found a couple of interesting newspaprer reports in which Geroge Evans, house painter, sugggested that 'the working men of Langholm, contribute for a gilft for Mr Gladstone - Oct 1879
Thank you Lucy & Gadget,
I don't have access to Ancestry as I no longer subscribe to that site.
How interesting to find that my Gt Grandfather George Evans should suggest a contribution to Mr Gladstone in 1879.What would be the reason for that was there something significant had happened?
Betty
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Hi Betty and Gadget,
Sorry I haven't been able to find anything else regarding George Evans or the exact location on Kirkwynd where he lived.
However if I do I shall let you know.
Lucy
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Just realised that I'd not replied publically to Betty's query re George Evans and Gladstone, although I've sent Betty some info.
It was related to Gladstone's Midlothian Campaign. George Evans proposed a collection towards the campaign.
http://www.liberalhistory.org.uk/history/the-midlothian-campaign/
Gadget
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Hi Betty and Gadget,
Sorry I haven't been able to find anything else regarding George Evans or the exact location on Kirkwynd where he lived.
However if I do I shall let you know.
Lucy
Thank you Lucy & also Gadget for trying to help me with this even though I still don't know.What Gadget found showed George Evans character to me to some degree for which I am very grateful.
Betty
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My paternal grandmother Emma Evans was born at Kirk Wynd Langholm Dumfries @ 2.30 on 23.Nov 1879.
Parents were George Evans(painter) & Sarah Elizabeth Evans nee Sinclair.
The problem I have got is there is no number or name of the house in Kirk Wynd .
Can anyone help me with this please.
Hi bettyespana. Like you I've had some ancestors live at Kirk Wynd and without knowing the numbers, I took these photos of the street on my visit last year. Langholm's a gorgeous place.
https://imgur.com/a/ngwmK
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Hi Betty,
You may be able to narrow down the abode by looking at previous (1871) & next census (1881) records.
If you find all the families in 1st census you can check who's still there in next census & who's a newcomer?
May help a little?
You can use freecen to give you an idea initially.
Annie
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Hi Betty,
You may be able to narrow down the abode by looking at previous (1871) & next census (1881) records.
If you find all the families in 1st census you can check who's still there in next census & who's a newcomer?
May help a little?
You can use freecen to give you an idea initially.
Annie
Thank you for your input but I have already done this.In 1871c they were in Salford & 1881c they were in Carlisle.George Evans (Emma's father) was a journeyman painter & moved about with his family.I have no idea how long the family lived in Langholm.
Betty
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My paternal grandmother Emma Evans was born at Kirk Wynd Langholm Dumfries @ 2.30 on 23.Nov 1879.
Parents were George Evans(painter) & Sarah Elizabeth Evans nee Sinclair.
The problem I have got is there is no number or name of the house in Kirk Wynd .
Can anyone help me with this please.
Hi bettyespana. Like you I've had some ancestors live at Kirk Wynd and without knowing the numbers, I took these photos of the street on my visit last year. Langholm's a gorgeous place.
https://imgur.com/a/ngwmK
Thank you for sending the pictures of KirkWynd. I would really have loved to visit myself but being out here in Spain & looking after my poorly hubby it looks as though I will not get the chance.
Betty
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Hi Betty,
You may be able to narrow down the abode by looking at previous (1871) & next census (1881) records.
If you find all the families in 1st census you can check who's still there in next census & who's a newcomer?
May help a little?
You can use freecen to give you an idea initially.
Thank you for your input but I have already done this.In 1871c they were in Salford & 1881c they were in Carlisle.George Evans (Emma's father) was a journeyman painter & moved about with his family.I have no idea how long the family lived in Langholm.
Betty,
Sorry for the confusion, I was meaning the Langholm residents in Kirk Wynd who may have been there for the whole duration 1871 & 1881 & any changes in people could narrow which house(s) your family may have lived in?
Annie
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I checked the valuation rolls of the before and after period last week and there is no real info. It looks as if there was more housing added in the period.
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Gadget,
Maybe a look at maps for both years would confirm more houses (I'm no good with maps), Sorry :-[
Annie
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It's highly unlikely that there will be two detailed maps within the 10 years for a small town. Also, I don't think it would have an arrow saying where George Evans lived ;D
Maybe there are some local records that aren't online that might give info about developments or what houses/buildings George Evans might have been painting. I suggested to Lucy that there might be some adverts or reports in the local papers but so far nothing has been found other than the birth notice that Lucy found and my find about Gladstone.
I passed through there a couple of weeks ago. It's a nice wee town :)
Gadget
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It's highly unlikely that there will be two detailed maps within the 10 years for a small town. Also, I don't think it would have an arrow saying where George Evans lived ;D
Maybe there are some local records that aren't online that might give info about developments or what houses/buildings George Evans might have been painting. I suggested to Lucy that there might be some adverts or reports in the local papers but so far nothing has been found other than the birth notice that Lucy found and my find about Gladstone.
I passed through there a couple of weeks ago. It's a nice wee town :)
Gadget
You are so right Gadget even if there were maps they wouldn't have arrows pointing to where George lived or where he was painting.
Unbelievably my brother was at a wedding in Gretna last week & he could have popped round to Langholm to see what he could find if anything. Looks as though finding the real address is not to be.I am ever so grateful to those of you who have been trying so hard for me.
Betty
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I checked the valuation rolls of the before and after period last week and there is no real info. It looks as if there was more housing added in the period.
Gadget,
Maybe a look at maps for both years would confirm more houses (I'm no good with maps), Sorry :-[
It's highly unlikely that there will be two detailed maps within the 10 years for a small town. Also, I don't think it would have an arrow saying where George Evans lived ;D
Sorry my wording may not have been correct but I was only suggesting that if no new houses were built it may be possible to identify with the census' I mentioned who was still there & who was not, to eliminate which houses they didn't live in i.e. possibly leaving a few to consider.
Annie
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Comparing maps, Kirk Wynd looks exactly the same in 1857 as it does in 1898. I don't think you'll find the exact location which is normal for a smaller street at the time. Numbers for Langholm start appearing more often by 1890 so I don't think there was much need for numbers before this - the postman just knew everybody.
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Thanks fab3,
Yes, no's were scarce/non existent in many places.
Where some of my ancestors lived, they had Croft No's but if they moved, the no. went with them, how confusing is that ??? ::) ;D
Annie
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Thanks fab3,
Yes, no's were scarce/non existent in many places.
Where some of my ancestors lived, they had Croft No's but if they moved, the no. went with them, how confusing is that ??? ::) ;D
Annie
That's very odd!
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Comparing maps, Kirk Wynd looks exactly the same in 1857 as it does in 1898. I don't think you'll find the exact location which is normal for a smaller street at the time. Numbers for Langholm start appearing more often by 1890 so I don't think there was much need for numbers before this - the postman just knew everybody.
Curious as I get about 18 houses in 1855 and about 31 in 1885, allowing for some multiples, it seems a big jump. Where they the same scale maps and did they show the boundaries between the houses?
Also intrigued by croft numbers, Annie, as they seemed to be fairly static in the Wester Ross community that I looked at - only changes were when neighburing crofts were acquired and then they would be given as a range - say 123- 128, etc.
Gadget
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Curious as I get about 18 houses in 1855 and about 31 in 1885, allowing for some multiples, it seems a big jump. Where they the same scale maps and did they show the boundaries between the houses?
Gadget
I just went by the 25 inch maps on NLS. 1857 on the left and 1898 on the right. Haven't been able to uncover any maps for Langholm online that show it any better than these. Perhaps second stories were added during these times?
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Very odd. In the overlay that I've done below, the only diffs seem to be buildings behind on either side (uncoloured - shaded).
The 1861 census is the only free online census that have house numbers (Free cen) 1841 doesn't have numbers. 1861 shows 1-17 Kirk Wynd.
Still doesn't help Betty though :-\
Gadget
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Very odd. In the overlay that I've done below, the only diffs seem to be buildings behind on either side (uncoloured - shaded).
The 1861 census is the only free online census that have house numbers (Free cen) 1841 doesn't have numbers. 1861 shows 1-17 Kirk Wynd.
Still doesn't help Betty though :-\
Gadget
I'll guess the enumerator was just numbering the houses as he got to them. I had a 4th great grandmother die here in 1890 and still no numbers for her death certificate.
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I've found the only obvious painter in Kirkwynd in the period that the Evanses were there. It could be that there is a link.
A David Reid, painter, was the occupier of a house on West side of KW in 1876,1877 and 1878, between George Scott and John Keddie.
In 1871, he was a boarder at Towkers Close and b, Hawick.
He's on the 1881 census at 3 Kirkwynd, married with 4 children (aged 1-8). Occ - painter (journeyman).
By 1891, he'd moved around the corner to Back Drove Road.
Gadget
added - George Evans doesn't appear in any of the available valuation Rolls 1876, 1877, 1878. Nothing for 1879, so could be he was sub-letting and/or his occupier status was not declared.
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I've found the only obvious painter in Kirkwynd in the period that the Evanses were there. It could be that there is a link.
A David Reid, painter, was the occupier of a house on West side of KW in 1876,1877 and 1878, between George Scott and John Keddie.
In 1871, he was a boarder at Towkers Close and b, Hawick.
He's on the 1881 census at 3 Kirkwynd, married with 4 children (aged 1-8). Occ - painter (journeyman).
By 1891, he'd moved around the corner to Back Drove Road.
Gadget
That is interesting,George Evans would also have had 4 children similar ages when Emma was born in 1879.I wonder if he was living in No.3 prior to David Reid.
I do know that the family was at Rayston Court St Cuthberts Without,Carlisle in 1881c
RG11/5155 f.36,p.13
By 1891c they were back in Lancashire @ Ellesmere Street Hulme.George died 1893 Salford.
Betty
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Got a few more search ideas, Betty, but have to be out this afternoon.
David's son John was born at KW in January 1978 and your Emma was Nov 1879. What a pity there's no Valuation Roll for there in 1879 :-\
Gadget
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Got a few more search ideas, Betty, but have to be out this afternoon.
David's son John was born at KW in January 1978 and your Emma was Nov 1879. What a pity there's no Valuation Roll for there in 1879 :-\
Gadget
Ok Gadget,I will watch this space.I have noted a little error in Johns birth I am sure it wasn't 1978!
yes I know we can all make little mistakes ha! ha!
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;D
Too many 1s and 8s and 7s and 9s. My usual mistakes are with letters rather than numbers. I touch type but my left hand is stonger than my right and on my little laptop, I tend to get the left hand letters of the keyboard first!
So far I've only found a couple of newspaper refs to David Reid - one in the early 1870s when he was in Hawick. I paraphrase - David Reid, a painter from Langholm was pulled from the Teviot, face down, in a state of inebriation. And later in mid 1880s, again a wee bit drunk!.
George Scott and John Keddie seem to have stayed in KW only briefly, as far as I can make out.
Gadget
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Also intrigued by croft numbers, Annie, as they seemed to be fairly static in the Wester Ross community that I looked at - only changes were when neighburing crofts were acquired and then they would be given as a range - say 123- 128, etc.
Yes it's confusing as normally it would be Rent Roll no's which went with them when they moved ::)
Sometimes people moved to crofts already inhabited i.e shared so croft 253 would be split to either 254 (which is strange as you would think they would run in a row with the no's) or it would become 253a.
There are other divisions where croft no. 353 is part of croft no. 331 & croft no. 354 is part of croft 338 becoming croft no. 338/354
EDIT Person in the above division originally lived at croft 354 i.e. an e.g. of croft no. going with them ::)
This is taken from the area of Boisdale, South Uist, Inverness-shire.
Annie
Added, Just to confirm what I was initially referring to.
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;D
Too many 1s and 8s and 7s and 9s. My usual mistakes are with letters rather than numbers. I touch type but my left hand is stonger than my right and on my little laptop, I tend to get the left hand letters of the keyboard first!
So far I've only found a couple of newspaper refs to David Reid - one in the early 1870s when he was in Hawick. I paraphrase - David Reid, a painter from Langholm was pulled from the Teviot, face down, in a state of inebriation. And later in mid 1880s, again a wee bit drunk!.
George Scott and John Keddie seem to have stayed in KW only briefly, as far as I can make out.
Gadget
Sounds like quite a character does David Reid.
I also used to have the same trouble when I had my small laptop however it recently died & has been replaced with an ideapad which is slightly bigger.29cm I love it.
Betty
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Also intrigued by croft numbers, Annie, as they seemed to be fairly static in the Wester Ross community that I looked at - only changes were when neighburing crofts were acquired and then they would be given as a range - say 123- 128, etc.
Yes it's confusing as normally it would be Rent Roll no's which went with them when they moved ::)
Sometimes people moved to crofts already inhabited i.e shared so croft 253 would be split to either 254 (which is strange as you would think they would run in a row with the no's) or it would become 253a.
There are other divisions where croft no. 353 is part of croft no. 331 & croft no. 354 is part of croft 338 becoming croft no. 338/354
EDIT Person in the above division originally lived at croft 354 i.e. an e.g. of croft no. going with them ::)
This is taken from the area of Boisdale, South Uist, Inverness-shire.
Annie
Added, Just to confirm what I was initially referring to.
My goodness whatever were they thinking about.All looks double dutch.
Betty
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Hi Betty,
Yes it would look "double dutch" to someone who was not familiar with it.
I have lived there, know the areas & understand the layout/format on the page I posted.
It's a Croft History book which I use frequently & I can relate to it without any problem, it's my "Bible" ;D. I have a few of them, great for references & know the gaelic & english names of places.
Annie
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Hi Betty,
Yes it would look "double dutch" to someone who was not familiar with it.
I have lived there, know the areas & understand the layout/format on the page I posted.
It's a Croft History book which I use frequently & I can relate to it without any problem, it's my "Bible" ;D. I have a few of them, great for references & know the gaelic & english names of places.
Annie
I believe that Emma Evans maternal grandfather Kennedy Sinclair(my 2xG.Grandfather) farmed at Sarclet,Wick according to the 1841c. That is a line that connects me to the Earls of Caithness.
I have got some pictures of the Sarclet area with ruins of crofts & it looks very bleak.It must have been an extremely hard life.
Betty
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You're right Betty but Wick is a lot different from the area I posted about.
South Uist was/is a remote island in the Outer Hebrides & many moons ago there was little in the way of grocery stores or home furnishings etc.
Our families lived off the land, cattle, sheep, hens, wild birds, fish, crustaceans etc.
No such thing as coal for fires, they used peat.
I love looking at old pics & reading about my ancestors lives as it was so different to city or town life.
Annie
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You're right Betty but Wick is a lot different from the area I posted about.
South Uist was/is a remote island in the Outer Hebrides & many moons ago there was little in the way of grocery stores or home furnishings etc.
Our families lived off the land, cattle, sheep, hens, wild birds, fish, crustaceans etc.
No such thing as coal for fires, they used peat.
I love looking at old pics & reading about my ancestors lives as it was so different to city or town life.
Annie
Yes,I too like to look at the old pics & reading about my ancestors.Dads side were the one's from Scotland & way back came from the Orkneys.Mum's side were originally French,then Norfolk & Lancashire.All hard workers but none of them city dwellers,mainly country & town,including myself.
Betty