RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: ancestorsnoop on Saturday 15 October 16 17:38 BST (UK)
-
I would love to learn what evolving surnames you have in your ancestry. It might help on some brick walls.
In my ancestry I have a few, but it is interesting that people still insist someone's surname is only spelled one way.
When my Bradney family were living in Pontesbury, Shropshire, England, they went by "Bradney" (also spelled Bradeney). In the 1840's they went to Abersychan, Monmouthshire; Shifnal and Wolverhampton, Shropshire; then latter to Norton Canes, Staffordshire and the USA. After they moved their Bradney name evolved to "Bradley." (Then their name was spelled: Bradney, Bradiney, Breadney, Bradley, Bradeley, Braidley, Braidley, Bradeley, Bradley, Bradely,...) I think some other "Bradney" families in the Wolverhampton area also changed to "Bradley."
My ancestor John Gleaves (abt. 1795-1841) usually went by "Gleaves" or "Glaves," but his children usually went by "Greaves" or "Graves." (So far I have found John Gleaves's name spelled 9 times as Gleaves, 7 times as Glaves, 3 times as Glives, 1 time as Gleves, 1 time as Clews, and 3 times as Greaves, during his lifetime.) They lived in Birmingham, Warwickshire.
I also have one or two ancestors, who lived in Somersetshire, with an alias, for example "Booby alias Hearn." My German ancestor Michael Schmidt, who immigrated with his family to the USA in the 1830s, was often recorded as "Smith" in US records and all his children adopted the "Smith" surname.
-
I think that Nursall is one.
It is a very rare surname that has nearly died out now in the UK.
They seem to be concentrated around Milton Keynes area
-
I hadn't thought about that, so that is very helpful. It is sad to see surname die out. :(
My ancestor Sophia Mitchel Jones was born in 1790 in Shrewsbury, Shrophsire. Her father Richard's surname was spelled "Mitchell, Mitchen, Minshall, Minchall, in the poor law records." I have only found him in the poor law records as her father (he was listed as a glazier apprenticed to Franks), so I don't how he was recorded on other records.
-
I have Clibons - Clibbon - Clippens - Clements
and
Gentell - Gentel and Gentle
I guess it was down to the vicars hearing on the day
-
This is very helpful. I am always trying to figure out the various ways surnames can be spelled by record takers (and transcribers). I wouldn't have thought of "Clements" for "Clibons."
-
Likewise - It took me a long time to short that one out :)
-
I guess it was down to the vicars hearing on the day
Literacy was a fairly uncommon accomplishment until the Victorian period, so rural families often knew how their name sounded, but not how it was spelt. They would have attended baptisms, marriages and deaths, when surnames would have been recorded. Ministers often had charge of a parish for decades and would have settled on a 'standard' spelling which many families probably adopted, but if the surname was unfamiliar to him a new variant may have appeared.
I have been transcribing registers for a rural Lancashire parish for 1750 to 1850, and it is interesting to see variants occurring in what are clearly established local families, such as Garside/Garthside, Haworth/Howarth or Haddock/Haydock.
My own tree has a Liversidge strain, originating from the Yorkshire town Liversedge, whose spelling became fixed after the appearance of maps. My ancestors spelt it with the E until they left Yorkshire for Liverpool, when the I variant appeared. And another strain which arrived as Piercy (from Northumberland) evolved into Percy, with Pearcey and Percey in between, not forgetting a lapse into Pearson, presumably due to a hard-of-hearing cleric at a marriage.
-
My Skelceys of Cubbington seem to have started out as Skelcher, which is less euphonious. They were constantly mistranscribed as Kelsey, and one branch ended up adopting this - their father died and their mother remarried, so perhaps they got confused.
-
You should see the name changes in my one-name study.
The earliest records have DUNBABIN, but over the years it is also spelled DUNBAVIN, DUNBAVAND, DONBAVAND, DUNBOBBIN, DUNBEBIN, DUNABIN, DUNDAVAN, DUNBADEN and many others.
One gravestone at Daresbury mentions William Dunbabin, Martha his wife, then John Dunbavand, son of the above.
Anyone who claims that their surname "has always been spelled that way" doesn't know how these things work.
-
I have Collie that became Currie.
I also have a name that I believe changed from something else. I can find no record of the name (McCorgray) before 1850s in Scotland. They were born in Ireland. No idea where or what the name started out as.
-
I did once (during a Scavenger Hunt, I recall) only find a missing relative because I adopted a heavy Norfolk accent and wrote their names as they would have been pronounced..........
So yes, Vicar a bit deaf, an unfamiliar accent, somebody hungover from the night before - the possibilities are endless!
-
Just try researching Spatchett... Various spellings and I often wonder if it transmuted into Patchett or similar!
PS: Any present day Spatchetts in Newcastle are likely to be lost branches of our tree.
Also, have often noticed that a slight mis-spelling of a common surname name indicates "poshness".
Eg: Armitage very common West Yorks, Armytage rather more posh local gentry
Nevile not the common Neville
Thynne
Weste
Etc, etc..
-
I have some Armitages
Spelt variously as Armitage, Armytage, Armintage and Armantage
All from Herts.
-
I have mentioned this before -- but in my mother's tree there is a family with the name Pizer -- so far she has collected over 60 variations on the spelling -- including Spicer and Spica
-
I have some that were consistently spelt Launce but now seem to be spelt Lance. This is probably closer to the pronunciation. Seems to be quite rare in my area now in any event.
I also have Pepper which seems to have originated as Pepyn.
-
My Siggeswyke family became Sigswick (and various spelling alternatives), and thence Sidgwick. For a couple of generations it became Shedwick and Sigsworth, before reverting to Sidgwick; and a mis-spelling in the 1800s led to my maiden name being Sedgwick rather than Sidgwick.
-
The earliest ancestors I have found were Targoose and variations moving through Tearguse until settling for Targus.
-
I have Collie that became Currie.
I also have a name that I believe changed from something else. I can find no record of the name (McCorgray) before 1850s in Scotland. They were born in Ireland. No idea where or what the name started out as.
Pharma, my mother's maiden name was McAughtrie, with various different spellings. She was born in Scotland as were both her parents. It's also believed that the McAughtrie name came out of Ireland several generations further back! The name was pronounced very like your McCorgray ... "McCortree"...
-
Thanks for all the wonderful replies! They are very enlightening. I am really starting to wonder if some of elusive ancestors are hiding behind a surname that has been changed.
When I helped out at a local Family History Center several years back, there was so many beginners that would tell me that couldn't be their person, because their surname was spelled this way. This is a good reminder to me because I find myself sometimes falling for that same trap.
-
I have Collie that became Currie.
I also have a name that I believe changed from something else. I can find no record of the name (McCorgray) before 1850s in Scotland. They were born in Ireland. No idea where or what the name started out as.
Pharma, my mother's maiden name was McAughtrie, with various different spellings. She was born in Scotland as were both her parents. It's also believed that the McAughtrie name came out of Ireland several generations further back! The name was pronounced very like your McCorgray ... "McCortree"...
I had never thought about that jay. Around here we'd pronounce McAughtrie "Mc Auch-tri" or " Mc Awf-tri" but I'll give it a go and see if I can find anyone.
-
Teague, Tague, Tegg, Tagg, Tegg and back to Tagg again - I'm not sure you can call the Grocott name evolving just variable - Groucott, Growcott, Grocot, Grocout - etc .....................
-
I got stuck on my Mellanby ancestors for a short while as, at the time, FindMyPast didn't identify the alternative spellings - Mellenby, Mellonby or Mallenby (often in the same person's records).
My Kinsman ancestors seem to have evolved from Kindsman sometime in the seventeenth century and Burn and Burns seem to have been interchangable (I can't prove a relationship to Robbie but that line is from the same area). Otherwise it just seems to have been alternative spellings, Fraser/Frazer being the most common.
-
Titsell, Titsall to Titshall.
Cackyrmul, Cackamool, Cackamole, Cattermole.
-
I'm fascinated by the way surnames evolve. Two of my ancestors' surnames - Breakwell and Speechley - go through a lot of different spellings along the way, but by the late 1800s most branches of the family have settled on the same spelling.
Two of my other surnames - Moul and Robinett - haven't converged on a single spelling, and there are a few variants of each existing today.
One surname - Glithro - probably came from Clitheroe at some point, but all my known relatives use it with a "G", although they change the ending (ro/ero/row).
Elsewhere in my family, I've seen German-sounding surnames which are anglicised, and a family called Newnam or Newnham whose descendants mostly changed it to Newman.
I love this topic!
-
I'm fascinated by the way surnames evolve. .... I love this topic!
I don't think I would call it evolution exactly - more the result of often non-literate people trying to make sense of new arrivals in their locality. There was a lot of migration in the early 19th century, especially towards towns, with those who had to write names down - clerics, census-takers - faced with the decision, and possibly a strange accent. For example, is it Horton, Hawton, Wharton, Orton, Houghton, Haughton ? Maybe there is a village somewhere nearby with a similar name, I'll use that.
Some of the furthest evolutions originate in Yorkshire: Woosnam (=Wolstenholme) or Smurfit (=Smirthwaite).
-
I'm fascinated by the way surnames evolve. .... I love this topic!
I don't think I would call it evolution exactly - more the result of often non-literate people trying to make sense of new arrivals in their locality. There was a lot of migration in the early 19th century, especially towards towns, with those who had to write names down - clerics, census-takers - faced with the decision, and possibly a strange accent. For example, is it Horton, Hawton, Wharton, Orton, Houghton, Haughton ? Maybe there is a village somewhere nearby with a similar name, I'll use that.
Some of the furthest evolutions originate in Yorkshire: Woosnam (=Wolstenholme) or Smurfit (=Smirthwaite).
People do that today. I have had my name mangled in so many ways and my name isn't even that difficult.
-
My Bownass family originally came from Westmorland, from near Bowness on Windermere. Other variations are Bonas - Boness - Bounes - Bownus - Bones - Bownyss - Bowniss and many other like sounding names.
The Westmorland/Cumbrian accent was very broad so it is easy to understand how so many variations came about.
-
We started looking everywhere for a guy surnamed AUCKLAND. My 2g-grandfather.
We had him on the 1861 Census, with his wife and 5 children. We found the births of his younger children, and from them, his wife's maiden name.
Thanks to having his wife's maiden name, we found his marriage - as OAKLAND. That found us the births of his older children, as Oakland.
But it took us years to find his birth. And it wasn't until we'd exhausted the entire county, and tried a few other places as well, that we came back to where he said he'd been born, and tried again. We found him, by searching for the right Christian name, with the father's name off his marriage. As OFFLAND.
By the time we'd found his parents' marriage, the name had become HOUGHLAND. Which sounds like "Hoff-land" locally.
His father was not married where he was born, and his son was not born there either. Nor was his son married either where he was born, or where his father came from. So we had several different vicar's interpretations of what they heard!
-
It's only fairly recently that there's been an attempt to standardise spelling of names and keep accurate, traceable records.
My French L'Estrange family eventually became Streing then Strang.
German ancestor Buechele went to America and generation by generation the surname became Buechle, Beeghley, Beeghly, Beighley, Beachley, Beechly, Beekley, Beeckley, Peachley, and many more variations...
Swiss Zuggs were Zaugg, Zug, Zook.
Welsh Rhys evolved to Rice, Roice, Royce.
Dutch van Ditmarsen ('of Ditmars') later Ditmarsen, Ditmars, Ditmarrs.
-
Thanks, to all, for the examples of changing surnames or spellings of the surnames! It is very interesting and appears to be a lot more common that I imagined. In the future I will use this as a reference to find other possible spellings for a surname.
-
It makes it even more fun - you have to use your imagination a little, rather than just typing names into a search box. I've got really good at searching with wildcards, but even my methods wouldn't find some of the examples people have given here. :)
-
Makes you think if you cannot find any record of a rarer surname before say 1750 then it could be a variant of another name.
-
Just came across one this morning while looking at birth registrations- mother's maiden name listed as both McArthur and McCarter on various certificates.
-
Just came across one this morning while looking at birth registrations- mother's maiden name listed as both McArthur and McCarter on various certificates.
Say "McArthur" in an Irish accent, then you'll see how a registrar could have got them mixed up! ;D
-
A couple of experiences I’ve had, involving complete name changes rather than the morphing of names:
When chasing the forebears of ancestor Marjory McFarlane I came across possible parents John McFarlan and Elspet Keaster. John and Elspet had 5 children, with her name variously given as Keaster, Mceaster and Mcester. I was completely stumped as to Elspet’s line until I came across this obscure quote while looking up something quite unrelated in an old book, ‘In Famed Breadalbane’:
“The Hays of Kenmore district are said to have come originally from the parish of Yester, and were therefore called ‘MacYester’, locally.”
So Elspet was really a Hay.
Second one, involving given names more than family names. This is a much simplified version of the actual process that took months, but it gives some indication of the mental gymnastics you sometimes get forced into:
Following the Scottish naming pattern, I considered that the father of John McGregor (alias Graeme) was probably called “Patrick”, the same name as John’s first son.
However, it turned out to be “Gregor”.
The biggest clue was the naming of a subsequent son as “James or Peter”. The use of “Peter” meant that “Patrick” had died (they were used interchangeably). But the use of two names was very rare. And for the paternal grandfather’s name to be given second billing in a double-barrelled name... It just wouldn’t happen. There is no way that someone else’s name would have taken first spot if Patrick/Peter was the name of John’s father.
Therefore Patrick/Peter was not the name of John’s father.
So, what was?
Well, this was during the Proscription, when the names (Mc)Gregor were banned.
So John’s father’s name was Gregor. (Patrick Graeme was the name of a local landlord.)
Cheers,
Peter
-
I think that Nursall is one.
Your right SB....
It's a genealogy transcription error of "All are nuts" in reverse :P
Annie
-
Does anyone have any really inventive alternative to use in a search for Briggs?
Biggs, Buggs, Bridge, Prida already found but I wonder if I'm missing some obvious possibilities.
-
I have Tobit becoming Talbot
-
Teager/Teagoe/Teague/Tago in Suffolk. It evolved to become Teager.
-
Bykerlads,
Have you looked at old variations like Brigge, Bryggia, Brycg, and phonetic variations like Bricks and Brix - which may also lead on to Bryce, Brice and Bruce?
Cheers,
Peter
-
I have 13 versions of the surname LUFFMAN, most of which appear to be simple mispellings or mishearings due to dialect misunderstandings with clergy from other parts of the country.
-
I am amazed at all the name variations. Thank you for all your replies. They are a great tool.
-
On OH's side once mob veered madly ( often in the same household and the same generation) around Emott, Emmot, Emmott, Emet, Emmit, Emmet, Emmett ... and I think there were one or two more variations.
-
Thanks, it is interesting how one household's surname could be spelled so many different ways. I heard my husband's grandma's name was Kathryn, but it appears her name was spelled several different ways in her lifetime. So when naming my daughter I chose the way I liked best.
It is nice having the English civil registration indexes online. It took a lot of time rolling on and off the microfilm looking for all the surname variations, because with the second letter in the surname being different it would sometimes end up being on two different microfilms.
-
It is nice having the English civil registration indexes online. It took a lot of time rolling on and off the microfilm looking for all the surname variations, because with the second letter in the surname being different it would sometimes end up being on two different microfilms.
Hurrah for wildcard searches, too!
-
I seem to find less common surnames have more variants so wildcard and Soundex options have to be used more often.
-
That fits my experience with Luffman; possible reason unfamiliarity, both in written and verbal situations.
-
I'm fascinated by the way surnames evolve. .... I love this topic!
I don't think I would call it evolution exactly - more the result of often non-literate people trying to make sense of new arrivals in their locality. There was a lot of migration in the early 19th century, especially towards towns, with those who had to write names down - clerics, census-takers - faced with the decision, and possibly a strange accent. For example, is it Horton, Hawton, Wharton, Orton, Houghton, Haughton ? Maybe there is a village somewhere nearby with a similar name, I'll use that.
I'm sure you are right. The Cattell side of my family have been recorded as Cattle, Kattle, Kettle, Kattel, Cattle. Obviously the same name but recorded as was heard in the local dialect by perhaps one of the few people in the location capable of reading and writing.
-
The surname Cass was recorded as Cas, Cash Casse, Cashin and Cashe.
Its a good thing that my direct ancestors stayed close to where they came from.
-
I rather liked the one where-quite seriously, one of my "Casson"s became a "Caffon" and stayed that way for ages! The "long S" has a lot to answere for when the transcribers aren't familiar with it.
-
My work on Loughborough has unearthed these variants. As if sharing a surname with a town didn't cause emough problems. (Aside: The town arts festival is jokingly called Loogerberooger.)
Lickbara
Lickbarrow
Loftbarrow
Loveburrow
Loufbrough
Lufbrough
Loufborough
Loufbrough
Lownsbrough
Loughboro'
Lownsbrough
Lonsbrough
Martin
-
One other example from the Lancashire parish I am transcribing - a family appeared in the early 1800s named Melladieu. That name repeated unchanged for quite a while (I guess they may have told the recorder how to spell it, or possibly the cleric was well-versed) but a few decades later it was appearing as Mellody, much more English-looking. Maybe the next generation felt less devoted to their roots.
-
Andrew, 'mel' in various forms (French, Latin, Greek) means 'honey'. I wonder if the name is derived from 'Honey of God'. I should add that Mildew has a similar origin, though.
Martin
-
I have often thought that as knowledge and education and communication increase, these confusions might end, but I am sure even modern computer spell-checkers will have new and amusing ways of mangling surnames.
-
Have you found it as "Molyneaux", as well?
-
There is a web site where you can enter the name of something you are seeking on eBay and it will do lots of auto-searches for likely wrong spellings of that item. We could do with a genealogy version!
-
Going off at a tangent this thread has reminded me of having to deal with a Palestinian customer several decades ago. The name on her passport had been transliterated from Arabic to Hebrew and then into Roman script. The result bore very little relation to how she wrote her hame in phonetic English.
-
Going off at a tangent this thread has reminded me of having to deal with a Palestinian customer several decades ago. The name on her passport had been transliterated from Arabic to Hebrew and then into Roman script. The result bore very little relation to how she wrote her hame in phonetic English.
I cam imagine when i was a personel officer at Birmingham New St in the early 1990s one of our drivers(Sikh)had one signature (native script) which he used to sign everything from cheques to timesheets and reports. Said it was easiest way. His English was perfect.
-
Does anyone have any really inventive alternative to use in a search for Briggs?
Biggs, Buggs, Bridge, Prida already found but I wonder if I'm missing some obvious possibilities.
We should all search for pluralized versions of names ........... even the experts make mistakes.
Using a reputable organization many years ago I was searching for a marriage of a namesake to someone and was advised that the name was BRIGG and I lived with that for years until,through my own efforts,I discovered that the actual and correct name was BRIDGES ........... I was very annoyed and told them so.
I did get an apology but it did not make up for the wasted time.
Joe
-
I was banging my head against a wall trying to find records for my 3x great grandfather Richard Eadie, I eventually found him under Richard Addis and his father is listed as William Addes!
-
recently I came across reference to a historic GRO report on surname variation by the Irish Register General 1901 so googled & downloaded the pdf see the attached image of one page. He tabulated surnames & their variations on subsequent pages, may be one by an English Register general too somewhere as part of their annual reports but not come across it. https://archive.org/details/varietiessynony00math On a previous page to the image he writes: The name “Whittaker” appears to have come from Whiteacre, with which form it has been found to be used interchangeably. Thus—
Whiteacre.
Whiteaker
Whitegar.
Whittegar.
Whittacre.
Whitaker.
Whittaker.
This is supposedly for Surnames in Ireland but no reason why can't throw any name in to see what it comes up with for curiosity https://www.johngrenham.com/surnames/
-
and of course for added fun placenames evolve too and swop back and forth even in the Parish Registers so Honyngham and Hunningham, Warwickshire are used by different ministers for births in 1860-80's and Hampstead Noreys & Hampstead Norris, Berkshire being recent off the top of my head. Just the phonetic variation then have the villages like Bugsworth, Derbyshire where the parish council decided should be Buxworth as they didn't like Bugs.
But to get back on topic Wetherall, Weatherall, Wetheral, Wetherel, Wetherill etc sometimes with the officiating minister writing it one way and the bride or groom signing another on the GRO/Parish entry.
What I find harder to understand is how Rymell became Ryman and then back to Rymill
Rymell / Rymel / Rymele / Rymill / Rymal / Rymall / Rimell. Ryman / Rymen / Riman.
-
... The name “Whittaker” appears to have come from Whiteacre, with which form it has been found to be used interchangeably. Thus—
Whiteacre.
Whiteaker
Whitegar.
Whittegar.
Whittacre.
Whitaker.
Whittaker.
Whittaker has begun to appear in my Lancashire parish, apparently developed from Wadaker or Waddicor, which had been fairly common in 1700s, but less so later. So maybe your net has to be even wider?
-
I like the idea of auto-searches for wrong spellings in a genealogy version for names, places, etc. (words in probates would also be nice, but I have found Google helpful to fill in the next word). That would be wonderful. In the meantime I agree wildcards and soundexes are lovely.
I am afraid I will have to ask all of you for name version suggestions after I have run out of ideas and used this post to come up with more. I am amazed at what you have come up with so far. Thanks to all for sharing!
-
One family line of mine have been, through all the censuses, Crouther, Crowther, Crowthers, Crouthers and finally Carruthers, which they remain to this date.
-
I know a person whose surname is Crouter; clearly from the same route, and probably a spelling mistake led to this.
-
One family line of mine have been, through all the censuses, Crouther, Crowther, Crowthers, Crouthers and finally Carruthers, which they remain to this date.
I have just come across that tonight when researching my husbands ancestors. I had an Isabella Carruthers, her marriage cert listed her dad as James Crothers but her birth certificate has him as James Struthers!
-
The following are the family of my great grandparents, their actual names, JOHN GIBBONS MATHEWS and MARY JANE MATHEWS, living in Sheffield at the time of the 1861 Census. This was sent to me by a kind volunteer person from the Sheffield Indexers - it was indexed under MASTERS! :)
Piece 3496 Fol 49 Page 17 Brightside Bierlow Yorkshire
Rock St
John G Markus 43 manger of Manchester Sheffield Rly.born Ireland
Mary J Martews 43 born Ireland
Henry M D" 16 born Hounslow Middlesex
Mary G" 12 born Hounslow
John R A" 10 born Manchester Lancashire
Robert W" 5 born London
+ 2 visitors and 1 servant, (John G's occupation is the volunteers interpretation of the census info! That was correct too, as I later found his employment records!
-
Don't forget "Crudder" for "Crowther" - yes, what a lovely image.
-
Try taking a look at my website clwydsurnames.org.uk
Not sure about 'evolving' but certainly plenty of variations. I've always
found Kirkham a fascinating one.
jillrose
-
Thank you jillrose for the link to your website. I found some more ideas of how to spell my Bradney/Bradley name from it.
jaybelnz thanks for sharing, that reminds me, my father found our ancestor John Bradney/Bradley listed on the 1851 census Abersychan, Trevethin, Monmouthshire, Wales, as "John Maddy."
On the 1880 US census my Danish ancestor Hans Peter Hansen was listed as "P. Hans Petersen." I saw something similar to that while I was looking for a friend's Scandinavian ancestor on a US census in another state. Luckily I was able to find his by just searching for the first names of all the family members, until one brought the family up.
Thanks to all for the surname examples.
-
Hi all, I'm wondering if anyone has discovered a surname evolution where part of the name has been dropped.
In my family history I have two brothers with the surname Thorp(e) living in Stow Bardolph, Norfolk. They were from the parish of Northwold. In the Northwold register there are baptisms which match their forenames and age difference, but the surname is Thimblethorp(e).
Has anyone seen anything like this?
-
I have just come across that tonight when researching my husbands ancestors. I had an Isabella Carruthers, her marriage cert listed her dad as James Crothers but her birth certificate has him as James Struthers!
I have recently come across a few Carrodus, which I guess is another variant?
-
Ubiquitous in Shetland where once you're back into the 18th century Laurence Jamieson's father becomes James Williamson, the son of William Robertson etc' in the Norse style.
Skoosh.
-
McLean who went to live in Lancashire mid 19thC has been transcribed as Lean. It was written variously by other people as Mack Lean, Maccleane, McLane. Macklin. He used one spelling consistently; it was others who altered it.
Croocoe, Crookaw, (from 16thC), Crookal, Crookall, Crookhall (no Lancastrian would pronounce h so that was not what they would have called themselves, unless one adopted it to make himself sound posher), Crookell, Krokel, Crookhorn ( imagining a shepherd's crook?). I have 4 wills from 18thC & 3 from 19th; the name was Crookall in each. Most of the testators were literate; one wrote his own will.
Southworth/Southart.