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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: JleeM on Friday 14 October 16 19:53 BST (UK)
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Hi guys, I'm Jlee, f, and 4th generation australian. I'm part Welsh, English, Irish and German... It's the welsh side of the family I'm trying to unravel at the moment.
I've been researching my family history on and off for a couple of years now and although I've dug up some pretty interesting info in some cases, i've been relatively lucky to have found it compared to where I seem to be stuck in time at the moment with my latest case....
The case of John Morgan and Sarah Shaw.
Records I purchased from the New South Wales births deaths and marriages registry regarding the birth of my Grandads father is where I found more questions then answers and where this obsession took it roots, lol.
Henry Thomas Edwin Morgan and his twin brother were born in 1895 to John and Sarah Morgan. Place of residence is Casino, NSW and at the time of birth, Johns age is recorded as 51 and Sarah as 47....
Further searching had me discover John and Sarah were registered as married in the district of Waterloo, NSW in 1876 but this is where my trail starts to go cold as both are quite common a name with little else to go on. The certificate I have lists their other childrens names with ages. It's quite a long list of siblings with conflicting ages, this had me look into colonial re-marriages that took place during the era. A Sarah Shaw had become widowed with children in South Australia. To re-marry under certain circumstances in colonial australia was completely acceptable. Perhaps there is more to John and Sarah then I first anticipated but I really am stuck as to which path to take without ending up on a wild goose chase....Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated:) thanks guys :-*
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Welcome and Croeso ( which is the welsh language word for welcome)
I also have got Irish, Welsh and English in my genes, and currently live in Wales.
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Really? Danke (that's German for thanks)
Cheers mate, that's cool to know:)
I'm not even really sure if the Welsh side is in fact Welsh, they could be from Kent, England but belong to Morgans from Wales. Something to do with some war in the 17th century.. I'm still trying to look into it.
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Hi, and welcome to Rootschat :D.
There are some very knowledgeable, helpful people here on Rootschat who should be able to help with your queries. As your current research is in Australia, the Aussie Rootschatters will have the best knowledge of available records, I'm sure they will offer their help when they come online later.
When you find that link to the UK, there are plenty of us Brits here to help too.
We are a friendly bunch, and don't worry about asking what you may think is a silly question - there is no such thing ;)
Happy hunting.
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Welcome to RootsChat.
Do you mean the Monmouth rebellion, a lot of the losiing side were sentenced to transportation or death by judge Jeffreys. Although it seems that Barbados was the place they were sent to.
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat. Lots of friendly helpful folk here.
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Ok, I'll look into it.
I remember reading that a rebellion or uprising led to something major that saw the beginning of the end for Glamorganshire. Some Morgans went to Kent, some went to America and some stayed in Wales until Trafalgar House was taken over by the trust.
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Just re-read my post - it sounded like I was saying only the Aussies and Brits could help, I didn't mean it to sound that way. There are helpful people from all over the world here with a lot of knowledge.
Sorry 3SD, I didn't mean to exclude you in S.A.
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I was actually pleased with what I felt was a kindhearted diplomatic approach toward a complete newbie nut job that clearly might achieve better results in her local forum before playing with the big boys.
It's funny because it's true...admit it:)
thnx for the advice too :)
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Hi, a warm welcome from me also :) you'll love it here.
Frank.
PS I like the "Nut Job" bit, .................... you're not an exclusive member of that club, there are a few of us on here ;D ;D ;D
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Further searching had me discover John and Sarah were registered as married in the district of Waterloo, NSW in 1876 but this is where my trail starts to go cold as both are quite common a name with little else to go on.
1617/1876
MORGAN, JOHN
SHAW, SARAH
Registration District: WATERLOO
From this marriage cert, what are their parents' names, their ages and place of birth?
....... this had me look into colonial re-marriages that took place during the era. A Sarah Shaw had become widowed with children in South Australia. To re-marry under certain circumstances in colonial australia was completely acceptable.
We have the same marriage laws as anyone else, perhaps you are thinking of the days of transportation which is way outside your timeframe. I don't really understand what you are saying about the Sarah SHAW from SA, widowers and widows can remarry ???
Can you please transcribe the information from the certificates that you have.
Debra :)
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ty Dundee, yes. This record is the one I believe is them. BDM state no record of parents names. I would purchase the cert. if i could guarantee that information be on the cert. Maybe I call NSW BDM first. I'm not prepared to pay for the gamble just yet. I think I'll search the siblings from the birth cert of their son that I purchased a little while ago. There is 8 other siblings listed on my Great Grandfathers birth cert (Henry Thomas Edwin Morgan born 1895). I'd like to research them for clues first....
Sorry, yes I didn't elaborate the story nor provide the source that lead me to consider this possibility. The colonial period dates from 1788 to 1901. In 1901 we became a federation governed by our own people within each individual state independently and not the british monarch. This ended the colonial period. By the 1850's the nation had become to reject the British Monarch in favour of our own decisions. During this time, it is recorded in our history that many husbands and wifes either abused, abandoned, turned up on census sheets in another state, with another wife or had sadly died leaving family to fend for themselves. The settlers were already shacking up with others in the same predicament so the policy under state governments allowed specific cases annulled and remarried legally, sometimes this was done at the registry with little or no fuss. It was unacceptable to leave your husband who provided for you however, domestic abuse in the home became unaccepted and grounds for a wife to leave her husband for another man... This, I'm still learning about and I'm reading this externalfile:drive-0d6f0a343ddb76f399aa3dfd574811e2a85a0880/root/Hart_Susan_2009.pdf, If you google Widowhood and Remarriage in colonial Australia, Susan Hart, Bachelor of Arts (Honours), University of Western Australia you'll read all about it... it's probably more of a long shot then anything but it is interesting as there is a Sarah Shaw recorded with 3 daughters being ill treated by her husband who was the girls father.
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yes, ill scan/upload the cert that I do have in a little bit:)
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ok, hear it is. The attachments option wouldn't let me upload the file (too big, apparently) so I've typed it out.
Henry Thomas Edwin Morgan
Registration number 31402/1895
New South Wales
Births, Deaths and Marriages registration act 1995
Birth Certificate
Date and place of birth of child - 1895, 18th November, South Woodburn
Name and whether present or not - Henry Thomas Edwin Morgan, younger born of twins, not present
Sex - male
Father's name, occupation, age and birthplace - 1. John Morgan 2. Laborer 3. 51 years 4. Kent, England
Date and place of marriage-previous issue - 1. 11th March 1876, Waterloo, Sydney, NSW 2. Living years Alice Priscilla (no age stated), Laura 18, Rebecca 17, James William 15, John 13, Charles 13, Charlotte 3, deceased 4 males, 2 females.
Mother's name and maiden surname, age and birthplace - 1. Sarah Shaw 2. 45years 3. Stockton, Newcastle, NSW
Certified by John Morgan, Father, South Woodburn
Witness- Isabella Horton
December 21st December 1895, Casino.
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Civil registration began in NSW in March 1856 and the bride and groom's parents' names were recorded in the church registers as well as birth places, ages and current marital staus. Sometimes these details were not passed on to the registry but will be in the church register. You need to see the details from registry certificate to find out which church it was. As the marriage was in Sydney there is a good chance the records were reconciled and are complete.
You do not need to buy certificates from the registry, transcriptions are much cheaper.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/family-history.aspx#transcription
Two of John and Sarah's sons enlisted in WW1. John was KIA in 1917 and David came home and also enlisted for home service in WW2 (his two records have been amalgamated):
http://soda.naa.gov.au/record/7986766/1
http://soda.naa.gov.au/record/6178585/1
Sarah was living at South Woodburn. The Vic MORGAN referred to in the letters in John's file was not Sarah's son, he was her grandson Victor Harold, the ex nuptial child of her daughter Rebecca.
Debra :)
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Mother's name and maiden surname, age and birthplace - 1. Sarah Shaw 2. 45years 3. Stockton, Newcastle, NSW
Baptism 1850
SHAW, Sarah
Parents William & Fanny
V18502636 37A
Hoxham, Newcastle
Death 1925
MORGAN, Sarah
Parents William & Nanny
8699/1925
Registration District: Casino
I believe the correct mother's name is Nanny. William and Nanny SHAW arrived in 1848 on the Royal Saxon
William SHAW, 30, Farm Labourer, born Leeds, Yorkshire
Nanny SHAW, 23 born Pudsey, Yorkshire
Hannah SHAW, 2, born Leeds, Yorkshire
Martha B. SHAW, Infant, born Leeds, Yorkshire
Nanny's maiden surname was BALMFORTH and I think her son James (born 1861) was a bit confused with the name and called himself James 'Bonifoit' SHAW.
The first daughter named Martha died in 1848 and they reused the name for a daughter born in 1864. She married John JAMES in 1884 and died in 1904 while visiting Sarah.
Another death occurred here early on Sunday morning last, when Mrs. James (sister of Mrs. Morgan, of South Woodburn), who was spending a holiday in town, died rather suddenly, after a few days' acute illness. The deceased was not quite 40 years of age, and leaves a husband and nine
children.......
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/127711134
JAMES, Martha B.
12778/1904
Parents: William & Nannie
Registration District: Casino
Debra :)
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ok wow! My Great Grandad, Grandad and his brother all enlisted in ww2 as well.
So Rebecca had a son? Vic Harold Morgan...how very interesting! Thank you for the time you volunteered to help me with that.
It's Very greatly appreciated Debra ;D
I read a while ago that during the early days churches registered the marriages ..The marriage is in 1876 so the records of the marriage might be held with the state rather than the church but birth certs, deaths or marriage records are held with the churches.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/about-us/history-of-the-registry.aspx
From 1788 to 1856 the only birth, death or marriage records kept in NSW were the registers maintained by the established churches. The Registry holds transcriptions of these early church records. Any surviving original registers are located in the NSW Archives.
Unfortunately, the extant records for this period are not comprehensive. Some ministers, missionaries and other authorised administrators kept records but not all were in a position to be this diligent. In addition many of the records contain inaccuracies and bad spelling. Distances to town centres, distrust of authority and lack of participation in formal church services contributed to the church registration system's inability to record adequately the details of all births, deaths and marriages that occurred in NSW.
So I might see what I can find with the archives and marriage registries/churches in Waterloo, NSW in the 1870's and see what else I can find out about Rebeccas son...tnks again:)
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WOW! My Morgan family originate from Casino and I wasn't sure where South Woodburn came into all of that but it's only 50.1kms from Casino looking at the map. There's a direct root straight from Casino to Woodburn. Maybe Woodburn was the closest town with the nearest registry/church in those days, I'll look into what's available in Woodburn.
So it could be William and Fanny! LOL! I've got their records stashed away in the maybe pile. I'm amazed you've found a connection to her name like that.
Love your work Debra! I've got heaps to sort out and keep me moving along the tree, cheers!
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John MORGAN probaby died in 1903.
MORGAN - On August 1st, at his residence, South Woodburn, J. MORGAN, aged 59 years.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/127880495
SOUTH WOODBURN
Death - On Saturday morning Mr. Morgan, who has been ailing for nearly 12 months, passed peacefully over to the great majority. The Rev. F. B. Newton read the Anglican burial service on Sunday afternoon, when the remains were interred in the presence of a large concourse of people. We tender our sympathy to the bereaved.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/127880514
MORGAN, John
9681/1903
Parents: James & Charlotte
Registration District: Casino
As his wife was still living the information on his death cert may be accurate and will record the number of years he had been in Australia. It always helps to know if the family thought he arrived as a child or as an adult.
You really need the marriage cert to find accurate names for his parents and his mother's maiden surname.
Debra :)
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You definitely need to see the 1876 marriage certificate to trace the origins of John MORGAN.
At 1895 -
previous issue - 1. 11th March 1876, Waterloo, Sydney, NSW 2. Living years Alice Priscilla (no age stated), Laura 18, Rebecca 17, James William 15, John 13, Charles 13, Charlotte 3, deceased 4 males, 2 females.
BDM NSW births
15569 / 1871 SHAW Alice Pricilla parents - / Sarah @ Parramatta
17416 / 1875 SHAW Sarah A parents - / Sarah @ Parramatta
death
9132 / 1876 SHAW Sarah A parents - / Sarah @ Parramatta
BDM NSW marriage
4868 / 1891 MORGAN Alice P(ricilla?) S(haw?) m. ELSTOL Charles @ Lismore (ELSTOBB?)
Northern Star 21 Jan 1936 p9
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/94504227?searchTerm=%
...obit for Rebecca HENDERSON, 57 yrs..
brothers (MORGAN).....James (Woodburn).....Harry (Casino).....Dave (Bonalbo)......Charles (Roseberry).......Jack (killed in Great War)
sisters....Mrs W DAY (Woodburn)....Mrs McKINNON(Wardell)....Mrs NEWMAN (East Maitland)
Northern Star 20 Mar 1951 p5
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/96556160?searchTerm=%
death of James William MORGAN ...70yrs...of Woodburn...
brothers Harry (Casino) Dave (Tabulum)...
sisters Mrs W DAY (Woodburn)....Mrs T NEWMAN (Sydney)...Mrs C COOPER (Wyrallah)
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Alice Priscilla (no age stated), Laura 18, Rebecca 17, James William 15, John 13, Charles 13, Charlotte 3, deceased 4 males, 2 females.
This should be Louisa
Birth
18373/1877
MORGAN, Louisa
Parents: John & Sarah
Registration District: Parramatta
Marriage
1054/1906
DAY, William
MORGAN, Louisa
Registration District: Casino
Debra :)
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WOW! My Morgan family originate from Casino and I wasn't sure where South Woodburn came into all of that but it's only 50.1kms from Casino looking at the map. There's a direct root straight from Casino to Woodburn. Maybe Woodburn was the closest town with the nearest registry/church in those days, I'll look into what's available in Woodburn.
The MORGAN family didn't live in Casino, they lived at South Woodburn which was in the registration district of Casino.
Debra :)
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Here is a thread re the elusive blanks on NSW BDM marriage certs. They are not brickwalls. :)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=546609.0
JM
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BDM NSW births
15569 / 1871 SHAW Alice Pricilla parents - / Sarah @ Parramatta
17416 / 1875 SHAW Sarah A parents - / Sarah @ Parramatta
Baptisms at St John's, Parramatta
Alice SHAW, 27 April 1873. Mother Sarah was a servant of George Street.
Sarah Ann Helen(?) SHAW, 13 July 1875. Mother Sarah was of George Street.
Louisa MORGAN and Rebecca MORGAN, 20 Feb 1879. Father John was a Fireman, residence George Street.
Perhaps John worked on a ship?
Debra :)
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Son David Richard buried Casino cemetery:
http://austcemindex.com/inscription?id=8467139
Possible for Louisa and William Day. Evans head just a short way from Woodburn:
http://austcemindex.com/inscription?id=9833668#images
Charlotte A marriage:
11207/1914 Edward Newman to Charlotte A Morgan CASINO
Death:
200687/1982 Charlotte Annie parents John and Sarah
NEWMAN Charlotte Annie (Lottie) Death notice 14-3-1982 Death 89 late of Wombarra, formerly of Granville Daily Telegraph (Sydney) 16-3-1982
Son of Charlotte and Edward:
34078/1915 Edward F NEWMAN CASINO
Deaths of her husband:
NEWMAN Edward Francis Death notice 9-10-1963 Death 73 late of Granville Sydney Morning Herald 10-10-1963
Death of a son:
7306/1978 Henry Allington NEWMAN
NEWMAN Henry Allington Death notice 28-3-1978 Death 54 late of Heckenberg Sydney Morning Herald 30-3-1978
Charlotte and Edward are buried together at Rookwood:
EDWARD NEWMAN
Name EDWARD NEWMAN
Age 73
Date Of Death
Date Of Interment 10.10.1963
Area Zone E
Section 19
Grave Number 3931
CHARLOTTE A NEWMAN 89 14/03/1982 17/03/1982
Headstone inscription: My Husb, our father; B 1892. At peace with Dad
Marriage of son:
22744/1944 Henry Allington NEWMAN to Olive Evelyn GRANVILLE
Death of Olive:
NEWMAN Olive Evelyn Death notice 21-9-2006 Death 83 late of Liverpool, formerly of Canberra Daily Telegraph (Sydney)
Possible marriage for son born in 1915:
16109/1941 Edward Francis John Newman to Dorothy May Rivett GRANVILLE
Both sons have WW2 records.
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NSW Electoral Roll 1878 CENTRAL CUMBERLAND, in Parramatta Police District (an extensive PD, including for example, Carlingford, Pennant Hills etc)
John MORGAN, freehold, Terry's Bush.
NB the electoral roll 1878 for PARRAMATTA does NOT list anyone with the surname MORGAN. ???
JM
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4868/1891 Charles ELSTOL to Alice P S MORGAN LISMORE - as previously posted by Wivenhoe.
Birth of son:
4952/1892 William J ELSTOBB BALLINA
Death of son:
2321/1892 William J ELSTOB BALLINA
Alice death:
7429/1944 Alice Pricilla MCKINNON mother Sarah BALLINA
McKINNON Alice Funeral notice 20-5-1944 Funeral late of Ballina Northern Star (Lismore) 20-5-1944
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article96414470
Obit for 2nd husband Dougall:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article96417308
Looks like the marriage to Dougall:
17007/1932 MACKINHON DOUGALL JOHNSON ALICE P LISMORE
I can't find divorce or death of Charles.
Jamjar
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Death notice Edward Francis NEWMAN (SMH 10 Oct 1963)
Ros
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Death notice Henry Allington NEWMAN
Ros
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Memoriam notice for Alice McKINNON from her sister Louisa and husband William
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article99007053
Ros
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Obit for Olive Evelyn Newman buried at Rookwood:
http://www.obits.com.au/notice/Olive-Evelyn-Newman
Name OLIVE EVELYN NEWMAN
Age 83
Date Of Death 21.09.2006
Date Of Interment 28.09.2006
Area Zone H
Section Remembrance Lawn 1
Grave Number 757
Name HENRY A NEWMAN
Age 54
Date Of Death 28.03.1978
Date Of Interment 3.04.1978
Area Zone H
Section Remembrance Lawn 1
Grave Number 757
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Hi guys! Sorry it's been so long since I last updated.
I've ordered and received John and Sarahs marriage certificate from NSW BDM.
I'd upload it for you all to look at but my chromebook is telling me the cert file is too large. I'll look into it and get the cert up asap if able :)
Registration ~ 1617/1876
11 March 1876, Waterloo. John Morgan; batchelor, birth place; Gravesend, England. Sarah Shaw; spinster, birth place; Newcastle, NSW.
Married in the Church of St Silas, Waterloo, Sydney.
According to the found of the Church of England
John; Laborer. 31 (age). Place of residence; Parramatta. Parents; James Morgan (laborer) and Charlotte flood.
Sarah; 25 (age). Place of residence; Parramatta. Parents; William Shaw and it looks like Nanny Bomforth. Nanny could be Fanny? Fanny? Don't suppose anyone knows where that name originates from?
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I hope I've converted/uploaded this cert properly. Please let me know guys if anyone has any issues trying to open the file.
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Son David Richard buried Casino cemetery:
Charlotte A marriage:
11207/1914 Edward Newman to Charlotte A Morgan CASINO
Death:
200687/1982 Charlotte Annie parents John and Sarah
When Henry Thomas Edwin and his twin were born in 1895. Their mother and father (John and Sarah, nee Shaw) had already registered 7 births.
Charlotte is listed as age 3.
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.......it looks like Nanny Bomforth. Nanny could be Fanny? Fanny? Don't suppose anyone knows where that name originates from?
Her name was Nanny, not Fanny. Her death:
6244/1873
SHAW, NANNY
Parents WILLIAM & MARTHA
Registration District: PARRAMATTA
This is probably her baptism in Yorkshire:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NR3G-JFJ
Searching the civil reg birth indexes from 1837 to 1900 finds 3799 children named Nanny. It was possibly originally derived from Ann/Nancy/Hannah and similar names.
Debra :)
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hi my great grand mother is Isabella Horton from sth woodburn her husband Thomas William Horton. they also lived in casino he owned a brick making place,maybe john worked for him or could be related. I worked in casino with a ruby morgan she is now living in Ballina nsw.
regards dianne
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Hi. There was a John Morgan aged 12 in 1840 who was transported to Australia for the crime of larceny. I am working on a person who went to court with him by the name of John Gavin. John Morgan was sent to Pankhurst first before Australia.