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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: Kimberley on Sunday 24 July 05 07:00 BST (UK)
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Searching for Australian born James Henry ROBERTS born 7th December 1880,Perth,Western Australia.
His parents emigrated to Australia in 1877 from Lancashire,England.
James (Jim) Henry ROBERTS married in NSW Australia in 1906 to Rebecca NUGENT. Rebecca may have been recorded as his next of kin !
Possess pose photograph of James H. Roberts in British Army uniform circa 1916 'Somewhere in France'.
Wish to establish how he came to join British Forces and how to go about finding records with above information.(picture now attached to later post and appears to be a Brit uniform tunic)
Both his parents were deceased by 1916.
Enlistment records may give his age and date/place of birth !!!
Maybe there is some record of his enlistment in England and his nok !
He returned to Australia after WW1 and may have then joined 'Home Guard' in UK during WW2 in England circa 1940. Suspect info ! He was there but ....!
Assume he would have received a Pension from Brit Army after he returned to OZ post WW1.
Any assistance,I would be most grateful.
I realise there must be many people by this "popular" name but few with place of birth (Australia) and nok !
Help please !
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kimberley can you post the photo,mack
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Hi Kimberely,
You can search the records at the Australian Veterans Affairs on line for a start and if no joy there then I would phone their FOI section.The help I got from them was fantastic.
Good luck.
Steve
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Hi Kimberely,
You can search the records at the Australian Veterans Affairs on line for a start and if no joy there then I would phone their FOI section.The help I got from them was fantastic.
Good luck.
Steve
Thanks for advice Steve
I presume it's Vets Affairs in Canberra or state he returned to.??
Bearing in mind he was born in Aust 1880 and for some unexplained reason must have travelled to England prior to or during WW1 and joined a Brit Regiment. Weird but his parents emigrated to Aust in the 1870's so may have had some connections in UK.
I have been advised that his Brit war entitlements or pensions would have been handled from Australia which I don't understand.
Mind you, Australian's were all British Subjects until the 1950/60's however the situation may have been slightly different post WW1 with regards to those who served with Brit.Forces as opposed to those serving with Aust Imperial Forces (AIF)
I'll get onto Vet Affairs.
Good luck to you.
Kimberley
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Possess pose photograph of James H. Roberts in British Army uniform circa 1916 'Somewhere in France'.
i'd be interested to see the photo, what indicates it is a british army uniform?
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Possess pose photograph of James H. Roberts in British Army uniform circa 1916 'Somewhere in France'.
i'd be interested to see the photo, what indicates it is a british army uniform?
James Henry ROBERTS is seated.
I understand Ancestry.com.au is making more than 16 million names available in nine military collections from Australia,Britain,Canada & US.
Material including the newly releasaed Brit CWG registers (1914 - 1918) are available FREE until midnight on April 30th.
Aparently the Brit data inc names of approx 90 per cent of the soldiers who fought in the British Arny (WW1) including many from Australia.
With the information previously posted eg.Name date/place of birth and possible nok I have had no luck establishing the British Army Regiment J H Roberts was in.
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Hi Kimberley
Can you do a hi res scan of JH s Cap badge?
Thanks
Ady
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Hi Kimberley
Can you do a hi res scan of JH s Cap badge?
Thanks
Ady
Being a mat finished postcard/picture that's 93 years old this is best I can do !
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Blimey!
Not much to go on there I'm afraid....
Well...It's small-ish is surmounted by a crown of some sorts, and has some sort of circular laurel leaf arrangement...
The 6th and 8th bn Hampshires have some resemblance...But realistically could be any of a number...
Where did his family come from? Not a real indicator, but maybe a small pointer...
Have you tried scanning the whole thing around 300-600dpi...? RC will take a large file such as that...I cant even make out the Diggers Div sign!! ;) Any probs, look for the hints and tips on the photo restoration board! ;D
You could then crop down to the badge or it may become more patent anyway...I have a small pic from WW1 that I posted Sunday under the title "Sky pilot for Liverpool Annie" that turned out quite OK ;D
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Blimey!
Not much to go on there I'm afraid....
Well...It's small-ish is surmounted by a crown of some sorts, and has some sort of circular laurel leaf arrangement...
The 6th and 8th bn Hampshires have some resemblance...But realistically could be any of a number...
Where did his family come from? Not a real indicator, but maybe a small pointer...
Have you tried scanning the whole thing around 300-600dpi...? RC will take a large file such as that...I cant even make out the Diggers Div sign!! ;) Any probs, look for the hints and tips on the photo restoration board! ;D
You could then crop down to the badge or it may become more patent anyway...I have a small pic from WW1 that I posted Sunday under the title "Sky pilot for Liverpool Annie" that turned out quite OK ;D
That's the best I can do scrimet with badge..it just becomes very blurred !
Thanks...see original post ! Now modified.
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Don't worry about the cut down of the cap badge....There may be some shoulder titles to see!!
Do you know as to whom the other chap may be??
He may have been visiting home when war was declared and like many of the "Dominions Across The Seas" joined up to see the Mother Country defended before it was all over...Quite a number of antipodeans joined British Regts...
Have you searched for his medal card and any surviving records on Anpestry yet?
I'm perplexed that he may have popped back for WW2 as well and served in the HG. Did he repatriate himself again?? These records are still held by MOD and will cost you to have them, and must be applied for by nearest surviving NOK...
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Don't worry about the cut down of the cap badge....There may be some shoulder titles to see!!
Do you know as to whom the other chap may be??
He may have been visiting home when war was declared and like many of the "Dominions Across The Seas" joined up to see the Mother Country defended before it was all over...Quite a number of antipodeans joined British Regts...
Have you searched for his medal card and any surviving records on Anpestry yet?
I'm perplexed that he may have popped back for WW2 as well and served in the HG. Did he repatriate himself again?? These records are still held by MOD and will cost you to have them, and must be applied for by nearest surviving NOK...
The picture/postcard was sent by James Henry ROBERTS to his brother who served with AIF and at that time was in Somme area.eg note on reverse.. To bro "Somewhere in France" from bro Jim "Somewhere in France"
Aussie soldier I am not able to identify,however probably known to the sender and recipient.
Another bro John Arthur ROBERTS - EA 1629 served in RNR and drowned on duty in January 1917 despite also being born in Australia in Dec 1888 (CWGC Faslane Cemetery)....just why they served for Brit Forces is unknown.
All other siblings served with Aust. forces in WW1.
I have looked at Medal Cards but they give no info as to birth place/date...and as I do not know which Brit Force JHR served in, it is of no use. You can imagine that there are numerous people with that common name ! I have reversed names and looked outside square eg.Jim,Henry James, etc etc.
He may have used another name...wouldn't surprise !!! Black Sheep !
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That could even be a RAMC cap badge, but I can't see any trade badge on the uniform...
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Hi Kimberley,
there are two James Henry ROBERTS listed in the WW1 Embarkation Rolls on the AWM site.
Numbers; 985 37 Infantry Battalion (June 1916)
and 6624 27 Infantry Battalion - 19 and 20 Reinforcements (January-October 1917)
I didn't look at the Nominal Rolls, they might have N.I.K.
I had a couple of G.G. uncles who joined up in Australia and were transfered to British forces.
AWM site; http://www.awm.gov.au/index.asp
click on [Quick Links]
Leonie.
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That could even be a RAMC cap badge, but I can't see any trade badge on the uniform...
Scimnet
I would like to solve the matter rather than raising all sorts of possibilities....I had hoped there may be some RC that had encountered this eg...Aussie joins Brit Force scenario !
I'd hoped someone has been down this path B4 and could solve...with info provided.ie date/place of birth,nok. Medal Cards an absolute waste of time..unless one knows serv # or regiment...and then it says nothing really !
I doubt many Australian born men joined Brit forces....?
Aussie records are 100%, however they didn't lose records in WW2 due to German bombing....!
James Henry Roberts did not enlist with AIF !
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I am not tying to raise "all sorts of possibilities" I am simply trying to help you with your search. ;D ;D ;D
The identifying of the cap badge is the fastest and simplest way forward with your chap. I have narrowed down the most likely candidates and with a little footwork from your goodself in...
a) Looking at the MICs to find named matches and then
b) Matching those names with the Regts / Corps mentioned or
c) Putting up the names if no matches...
...will help you in finding what you require. We have on RC managed to find the right chap with just as little int previously! ;)
Again, a better scan of 300-600dpi would help...There may even be shoulder titles or something else on there... ;)
The Regt/Corps is the key, and with that you can then look at the surviving records and perhaps the pension records. This is why we are trying very hard in ID'ing the Regt for you, so you can go thence to the MICs. Then they are not a "waste of time" as you put it. ::) 8) 8)
As for Australian Forces being "far superior" this is a matter of personal conjecture and not "fact". :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
All Empire, Dominion and Commonwealth forces fought with equal courage and determination. Indeed they were all trained the same, and I feel that although your Australian Pride is commendable, the statement is somewhat disingenuous. :P
As I have mentioned in my earlier post, many Australians DID travel to the Mother Country to enlist...Perhaps this Australian yr 12 school lesson will help you sort "fact" from personal conjecture? ..."96% of Australians in the 1911 census were of British stock". There was not the republican zeal in 1914 as is found today, apart from the Fenians! ;) ::)
https://internal.shenton.wa.edu.au/society/12History/WW1(1).pdf
It is indeed fortunate that the Australian Military Records are so complete...The British ones are not. This is a fact, and one we cannot change. It would of course be much more simple had our ancestors labeled EVERY pic with name rank and number...and place and date, but of course much of this would not have passed the censor. If one is fortunate enough to have the medals in the family, then this is of course a great help, as all int is available on the rims/reverse! ;D ;D
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That could even be a RAMC cap badge, but I can't see any trade badge on the uniform...
Scimnet
It could be Girl Guides for all I know !!!
I would like to solve the matter rather than raising all sorts of possibilities....I had hoped there may be some RC that had encountered this eg...Aussie joins Brit Force scenario !
I'd hoped someone has been down this path B4 and could solve...with info provided.ie date/place of birth,nok. Medal Cards an absolute waste of time..unless one knows serv # or regiment...and then it says nothing really !
I doubt many Australian born men joined Brit forces....Australian Forces were superior by far !!! Come in spinner ?
I know that is fact !!
Aussie records are 100%, however they didn't lose records in WW2 due to German bombing....meticulous records they are to !
James Henry Roberts did not enlist with AIF !
How rude.
Leonie.
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I am not tying to raise "all sorts of possibilities" I am simply trying to help you with your search. ;D ;D ;D
The identifying of the cap badge is the fastest and simplest way forward with your chap. I have narrowed down the most likely candidates and with a little footwork from your goodself in...
a) Looking at the MICs to find named matches and then
b) Matching those names with the Regts / Corps mentioned or
c) Putting up the names if no matches...
...will help you in finding what you require. We have on RC managed to find the right chap with just as little int previously! ;)
Again, a better scan of 300-600dpi would help...There may even be shoulder titles or something else on there... ;)
The Regt/Corps is the key, and with that you can then look at the surviving records and perhaps the pension records. This is why we are trying very hard in ID'ing the Regt for you, so you can go thence to the MICs. Then they are not a "waste of time" as you put it. ::) 8) 8)
As for Australian Forces being "far superior" this is a matter of personal conjecture and not "fact". :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
All Empire, Dominion and Commonwealth forces fought with equal courage and determination. Indeed they were all trained the same, and I feel that although your Australian Pride is commendable, the statement is somewhat disingenuous. :P
As I have mentioned in my earlier post, many Australians DID travel to the Mother Country to enlist...Perhaps this Australian yr 12 school lesson will help you sort "fact" from personal conjecture? ..."96% of Australians in the 1911 census were of British stock". There was not the republican zeal in 1914 as is found today, apart from the Fenians! ;) ::)
https://internal.shenton.wa.edu.au/society/12History/WW1(1).pdf
It is indeed fortunate that the Australian Military Records are so complete...The British ones are not. This is a fact, and one we cannot change. It would of course be much more simple had our ancestors labeled EVERY pic with name rank and number...and place and date, but of course much of this would not have passed the censor. If one is fortunate enough to have the medals in the family, then this is of course a great help, as all int is available on the rims/reverse! ;D ;D
I'll try this attach Scrimnet...my mail says max attach size allowed is 500KB.
Badge becomes distorted when zoomed !
Date on postcard is July 1916.
James H Roberts was possibly serving in Brit Forces in 1915 as a postcard was sent to him in October 1915 from his 7 yr old son. Ofcourse James may not have enlisted in 1915 however it's quite possible he was in England.
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It could be Girl Guides for all I know !!!
spinner ?
I know that is fact !!
What a dopey statement .......... you obviously did not know that Australia was a very young country in WW1 and a very large component of the Australian forces were migrants fromUK and Ireland
Joe
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http://mappingouranzacs.naa.gov.au/
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A darned good site spof ...... thank you indeed.
It does need some attention though with all the different spellings for what is obviously the same place ... probably the usual mistranscription problem that we see in family history.
ie Folkstone .. Folkistone ... Folkestone etc.
Never mind it confirms the matter,
Thanks,
Joe
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Scrimnet
Cap badge is size of match head (on original postcard) and can not be enhanced...it becomes distorted !!!( I took to professional photographer)
I understand Attestation Papers for WW1 British servicemen are in two (2) sections/areas at National Archives.
WO 363 (the burnt records) and WO 364 (the unburnt series) which are presumably the Pension Records and the WO 363 series are only completed for alpha surnames A - N...ie incomplete !
You can imagine the number of men who enlisted with the "popular" name of James Henry ROBERTS....however, if I am able to find "Attestation Papers" of the James Henry ROBERTS who gave his place of birth as Australia,dob (maybe nok) etc...maybe I would strike luck !...He may have said his name was Jim !
I am amazed there are so many experts on RC with such a wealth of information about AIF (Australian Imperial Force) and its involvement in Great War. Very grateful for info.
I did happen to note a James Henry ROBERTS - Royal Field Artillery - Driver - Regiment Number 87885....could you check this man please ?
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Hello again Kimberley! ;D
Well, one thing is quite certain...This chap is not an artilleryman! Even at this resolution a RA cap badge would be more than patent...
You have about a 1 in 3 chance of finding your chap, but it is worth a dig...I looked for x4 family members and found x3 of them...
Whom else / how many chaps of that name did you find??
We MAY still yet be able to marry up a likely candidate!
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Hello again Kimberley! ;D
Well, one thing is quite certain...This chap is not an artilleryman! Even at this resolution a RA cap badge would be more than patent...
You have about a 1 in 3 chance of finding your chap, but it is worth a dig...I looked for x4 family members and found x3 of them...
Whom else / how many chaps of that name did you find??
James Henry ROBERTS found as follows:
Private # 68752 - Royal Army Medical Corps
Private # M2/019564 - Army Service Corps
Private # 089273 - Royal Army Service Corps
Private # 204639 - King's Liverpool Regiment......could be Joseph Henry ROBERTS ??
Driver # 87885 - Royal Field Artillery
We MAY still yet be able to marry up a likely candidate!
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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The most likely candidate there going by the list and cap badge shape, size etc, is the RAMC chap....
Actually I mentioned them before you went onto the GG thing :P
As also mentioned he has no trade badges, but that is not too much of a problem...
Have a dig on him...You never know! ;D ;D ;D
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The most likely candidate there going by the list and cap badge shape, size etc, is the RAMC chap....
Actually I mentioned them before you went onto the GG thing :P
As also mentioned he has no trade badges, but that is not too much of a problem...
Have a dig on him...You never know! ;D ;D ;D
Try here http://ramc-ww1.com/
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Here is another Australian who enlisted and served with a British unit (a Welsh battalion in this case).
http://swanseabattalion.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=422&Itemid=60
I wonder if he had come over - maybe as a seaman - and had enlisted as a patriotic member of the British Empire?
Bernard
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Still hunting for British WW1 record of James Henry ROBERTS born 7 December 1880,Perth,Western Australia.(Australian born)
Does any RC have access to Ancestry or National Archives data that gives a mans date & place of birth ? Also possibly his next of kin.
I believe Ancestry or National Archives now have Pension records of men who served in France with British Army !
It's likely James Henry ROBERTS' nok was his wife Rebecca.
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Still hunting for British WW1 record of James Henry ROBERTS born 7 December 1880,Perth,Western Australia.(Australian born)
Does any RC have access to Ancestry or National Archives data that gives a mans date & place of birth ? Also possibly his next of kin or marital status ? ROBERTS was discharged and returned to Australia after serving in France.
I believe Ancestry or National Archives now have Pension records of men who served in France with British Army known as Burnt Documents (WO 363)
It's likely James Henry ROBERTS' nok was his wife Rebecca.Perhaps he did not include this information !
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Hi Kimberley
A few corrections…men enlisting ‘for the duration’ did not receive a pension. If however they were disabled during the war, then their disability was accessed and they might have received a temporary pension. The pension files on Ancestry were sent to the War Office to replace service records lost in the 1940 fire. These were obviously records no longer needed in the 1940s. However these have been on Ancestry for some time. They were originally WO364 when they were on microfilm in the National Archives. The same files contain lots of rejected claims.
There are only two medal cards for the full name - http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_fn=james+henry&_ln=roberts&_no=&_crp=&_ttl=&_cr1=WO+372&_dt=M&_col=200&_hb=tna&image1.x=48&image1.y=11
The Liverpools man seems to have a post 1917 number. Ancestry is free at present so you should check to see if either record Is available.
If you search just for James Roberts there are 566 medal cards - http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_fn=james&_ln=roberts&_no=&_crp=&_ttl=&_cr1=WO+372&_dt=M&_col=200&_hb=tna&image1.x=15&image1.y=21 – if you click on export results you can save a csv spreadsheet file and delete the men with a different middle name. Again as Ancestry is free you can start to go through the service and pension files on Ancestry. But I am sure you know that there is only about a one in three chance that a record survives.
If you know where his parents were from you can start looking at their local regiments first. Apart from that they have started to publish Home Guard records from WW2. I do not know the timelines for them going online. If the Home Guard story is true his record should give details of any previous service.
Ken
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Hi there,
According to the Western Australia bdm online index, a James Henry ROBERTS birth was registered in Perth WA in 1880. The index has his dad as George, and his mum as Sarah Ann (Henry).
http://www.bdm.dotag.wa.gov.au/_apps/pioneersindex/default.aspx
I am not sure what information would be on that birth certificate, but they were based in Western Australia in 1880, and likely were still there in 1882 and 1889 and 1891, 1892 for the births of siblings Francis Charles, Arthur, Cecil Ernest, Ethel Maude (sadly she survived only 2 months as per the index)
http://www.jaunay.com/bdm.html If you know where his parents were from you can start looking at their local regiments first.
Cheers, JM