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General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: Honor on Wednesday 28 September 16 15:02 BST (UK)
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I've been researching my fourth great grandma, Ann, who was born in 1827 in Sussex.
According to the census records, she and her husband William Tompsett had 13 children together in the space of 33 years. They are as follows,
Martha Tomsett, born 1846
Lucy Tomsett, born 1848
Elizabeth Tomsett, born 1849
William Tomsett, born 1849
John Tompsett, born 1854
George Tomsett, born 1857
Edward Tomsett, born 1860
Caleb Tomsett, born 1861
Esther Tomsett, born 1863
Mary A Tomsett, born 1866
Ann Tomsett, born 1868
Bessie Tompsett, born 1869
Then, ten years later, we have:
Ebenezer Tompsett, born 1879, when Ann would have been around 52 ???
Is this really feasible? I understand that women can and do have children later on in life, but was this common before the days of modern medical science? And why would there be a ten year gap between the births of Bessie and Ebenezer?
I apologise for sounding ignorant, but I feel like something is off somewhere here? ???
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It is absolutely feasible, I have ancestors having babies in their late forties and early fifties.
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It is feasible and the gaps could mean that there were other children.
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Another possibility is that Ebenezer was passed off as the child of William and Ann, but was really their grandson. If so, then based on the list of names you give, I would suggest the most likely mother would be Esther.
Arthur
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Hello
Can't post the details but can I suggest that you look for Ann and William in the 1911 census and see how many years married and how many children they have had and how many are still alive. It may help in your puzzle - they are very easily found.
Nesta
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I agree with Arthur.
I have a couple of examples in my tree. In one case the grandparents had me fooled because they went on to have another natural child to add to the concealment. I only found out the truth when the family were featured on the TV programme "Heir Hunters".
Jebber
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That was my first thought too.
Carol
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i wonder how many of the women who had children in their 50's were actually the grandmothers ....not biologically impossible ...my ex had a sister 20 years younger with a 12 year gap between the next sibling and herself birth mother was aged 48 .
In the historical cases the birth certificate ..or baptism does not prove that the elder mother is the biological mother ..
do let us know if you find anything else out .
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I knew someone who married very late in life and had a babe at 50,sadly she died when the child was a toddler.
Barb
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Hello
Can't post the details but can I suggest that you look for Ann and William in the 1911 census and see how many years married and how many children they have had and how many are still alive. It may help in your puzzle - they are very easily found.
Nesta
I agree with Nesta, look at 1911 if you can. Then start looking into the daughters, ;D
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Do you have Ebenezer's birth certificate [which will give mother] - or baptism?
Josey
ADDED:
Births Sep 1878
TOMSETT Ebenezer William Hailsham 2b 98
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Hello
Can't post the details but can I suggest that you look for Ann and William in the 1911 census and see how many years married and how many children they have had and how many are still alive. It may help in your puzzle - they are very easily found.
Nesta
I agree with Nesta, look at 1911 if you can. Then start looking into the daughters, ;D
1911 England Census removed by moderator
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Do you have Ebenezer's birth certificate [which will give mother] - or baptism?
Josey
ADDED:
Births Sep 1878
TOMSETT Ebenezer William Hailsham 2b 98
Unfortunately I don't, I think I'll buy it though
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Do you have Ebenezer's birth certificate [which will give mother] - or baptism?
Josey
ADDED:
Births Sep 1878
TOMSETT Ebenezer William Hailsham 2b 98
Unfortunately I don't, I think I'll buy it though
Yes I would agree best way to find out ;D
Rosie
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My first thought was Ebenezer was an illegitimate grandchild passed off as their youngest child. Especially if they were 10 years younger than the penultimate child, unless some were born inbetween who died in infancy.
I have an ancestor who had her penultimate child at 43 and her alleged last child at 51 but I feel the last child is a grandchild.
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I agree that buying the certificate is the right next step, but bear in mind that these can also be incorrect. My Great Grandmother had an illegitimate child but his birth certificate shows him to be the child of her father and his 2nd wife.
My Great Grandmother married a few years later and her son then came to live with her, at which point she also had him baptised.
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My family were serial offenders regarding passing off illegitimate children as their own, and allowing the daughter to go off and marry elsewhere, leaving child to be brought up by the grandparents. Interestingly though, the child was often reunited with the mother when older. Obviously all the local people would know who the birth mother was, so the chances are that the lie was purely for the census to preserve the family's 'honour', or to protect against official snooping.
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I'd put money on the concealed grandchild theory too. In my researches the flow seems to dry up in the early forties. Much later births are not unusual these days, but obstetrics are a completely different activity now. In Victorian times the grandchild probability increases steadily from about 45 onwards.
My grandmother had three sisters, widely spaced, and I found out recently that the gaps were filled by brothers who all died young. Her mother died aged 43 trying for number nine, who didn't survive either.
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As has been suggested, look at the 1911 census.
You will be interested in the entry.
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i was interested in this story ;tried looking for ebenezer in 1911 census
didnt find him
found Caleb in Chiddingly ....what are the sisters married names ?
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Ebenezer married Caroline Boniface in 1900, so try looking for this couple in 1911.
Marriages Sep 1900
Boniface Caroline Eastbourne 2b 177
Tompsett Ebenezer William Eastbourne 2b 177
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To find William and Ann in 1911 you may have to insert an "h" :) but not for Ebenezer.
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i was interested in this story ;tried looking for ebenezer in 1911 census
didnt find him
found Caleb in Chiddingly ....what are the sisters married names ?
Hi everyone,
Thanks for the responses.
I've looked at the 1911 census. I guess that some of those children were, indeed, grandchildren.
Someone asked for the married names of the sisters,
Martha married John Roser in 1865,
I'm yet to find a husband for Lucy,
Elizabeth married Job Guy in 1868,
Esther married in in 1896 but am unsure which man is her husband,
I'm yet to find a husband for Ann,
I'm yet to find a husband for Mary,
and Bessie married Frederick Rayner in 1889.
Ebenezer can be found living with his wife Caroline Boniface on the 1911 census.
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Thanks ....
How many of the children on that list were grand children ?there was a 23 year gap between them not counting Ebenezer !
the 1911 census doesn't solve the mystery of who his mother was yet
A bit more searching required ? Good luck !
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it was not unheard of, but it was thought to be more dangerous for mother and child butnot impossible women were having children from the age of 15yrs to 50yrs. because overall our diets were better and there was not much in contraception around except no. women entered menopause later than now. we now choose to have children in our early 40s' but you are then closer to having your menopause about the same time an standing the chance of having a child with downs rather than one without the condition. and of course we now have contraception choices which until reasonably recently were not available then, and our diets are improving having gone through a not so good period around the 60s' we are more aware of what we should be eating to keep us healthy and enabling us to enjoy life without all of the allergies of say even 10yrs ago. even couples who have problems of conceiving are finding it easier to have a family although expensive due to all the tests etc that have to be paid for and only upto a certain age can you obtain this help on the nhs, otherwise its very costly to go private.
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I am a man so what do I know about the menopause ;D but I did read that just before the menopause, women did have a spurt in fertility. It probably shows that my hobby of genealogy has made me study human life more as well as religious topics even though I am not religious myself. It is rare but not unknown for a woman to have a baby at 50. One private genealogist I once knew said a woman could have a baby at 60. Without IVF that is very unlikely.
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After reading through this thread I am inclined to agree with the grandchild theory. I have uncovered several in my research into the family, the most glaring with a 26 year gap between the last two kids, with the prime suspect for mother the 16 year old daughter at the time...
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One private genealogist I once knew said a woman could have a baby at 60. Without IVF that is very unlikely.
I think the Guinness Book of records has the oldest mother for a naturally conceived child as 55.
I remember passing that age and breathing a sigh of relief - no more children or if there were, I would be a celebrity!!!!!!!
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One private genealogist I once knew said a woman could have a baby at 60. Without IVF that is very unlikely.
I think the Guinness Book of records has the oldest mother for a naturally conceived child as 55.
I remember passing that age and breathing a sigh of relief - no more children or if there were, I would be a celebrity!!!!!!!
I hope you got safely past 59 then, which is the current record.