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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Joan Benson on Sunday 25 September 16 18:52 BST (UK)
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Hello
I have hit a real brick wall with a member of my family and hope someone can help.
My aunt, Lillian, also known as Lily, Jones was born in 1943 to parents Richard Jones (b 29 Mar 1902, d unknown but possibly between 1943 and 1948) and Louisa May nee Worthington (b 14 May 1920 d 1943). At the time of the 1939 register, the family were living in Liverpool. There are two other children, Irene May Birmingham nee Jones (b 25 Apr 1938 d 12 Aug 1996) and Margaret Jones (b 1939 d 1941).
I have a vague hint that Lillian's husband may have been named Robert and she possibly had a child Sandra but that's it, I just can't find anything else relating to her birth, death or marriage.
Any help would be very much appreciated.
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Greetings, Joan, and a warm welcome to Rootschat
I had a look on FreeBMD to find any deaths in Lancashire for a Lily/Lilian/Lillian of the right age and found only two between 18 and 25. One of them could be your aunt:
Dec qtr 1964 Lilian E REEVES age 21, Liverpool S vol 10D p461
There was a marriage: Mar qtr 1960 Lilian E JONES to William REEVES, Liverpool S vol 10d p1131
FreeBMD also has three baptisms in Liverpool South for children named Reeves with the mother's maiden name Jones. It is the policy of Rootschat not to post the names of people who may be livinng, so I cannot list their names, but one will definitely be of interest!
You would need to get the marriage certificate (or find a church register) to see if Lilian E Jones was the daughter of Richard, but this looks promising.
All the best
Philip
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Greetings, Joan, and a warm welcome to Rootschat
I had a look on FreeBMD to find any deaths in Lancashire for a Lily/Lilian/Lillian of the right age and found only two between 18 and 25. One of them could be your aunt:
Dec qtr 1964 Lilian E REEVES age 21, Liverpool S vol 10D p461
There was a marriage: Mar qtr 1960 Lilian E JONES to William REEVES, Liverpool S vol 10d p1131
FreeBMD also has three baptisms in Liverpool South for children named Reeves with the mother's maiden name Jones. It is the policy of Rootschat not to post the names of people who may be livinng, so I cannot list their names, but one will definitely be of interest!
You would need to get the marriage certificate (or find a church register) to see if Lilian E Jones was the daughter of Richard, but this looks promising.
All the best
Philip
Hello Philip
Thank you so much for your help. I'm not sure yet if this is my Lilian but will be paying a visit to the records office to find the certificates and will let you know when I have some answers.
Very best wishes
Joan
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I'm not sure yet if this is my Lilian but will be paying a visit to the records office to find the certificates and will let you know when I have some answers.
Very best wishes
Joan
You won't find certificates at the Record Office, but you will find Parish Registers.
Certificates have to ordered through the Register Office. Note that you cannot look at certificated before you purchase them! ::)
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You won't find certificates at the Record Office, but you will find Parish Registers.
Certificates have to ordered through the Register Office. Note that you cannot look at certificated before you purchase them! ::)
Sorry I used the wrong term, I meant view and copy the register. I'm a newbie, forgive me :)
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In order to visit the Record Office to view the church register by appointment if they have it we need to first find out what was the church. Nothing is coming up on Lancs BMD the site doesn't have complete records and more recent records are less likely to appear.
You may need to order the certificate from the GRO without index details putting in Lilian's name and her father's name so you only get the certificate sent to you if the father is called Richard Jones.
Blue
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What part of Liverpool were they from? If you are familiar with the local churches you could give it a try at the Record Office. Message them and ask if you can view 1960 registers for say three local churches. If they married at the register office then you would only be able to view the record by getting the certificate.
https://liverpool.gov.uk/contact-us/service-area/liverpool-record-office/
Blue
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Joan, what was their address in 1939 please?
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What part of Liverpool were they from? If you are familiar with the local churches you could give it a try at the Record Office. Message them and ask if you can view 1960 registers for say three local churches. If they married at the register office then you would only be able to view the record by getting the certificate.
https://liverpool.gov.uk/contact-us/service-area/liverpool-record-office/
Blue
Thanks very much Blue. I'm guessing at this from the 1939 register when the family were in Wavertree but that's 4 years before Lilian/Lillian/Lily was born.
I have the free BMD reference but I've checked the Lancashire BMD and the marriage is not recorded there, so can't get any further details on the location. I think I'm just going to have to order the marriage certificate and hope it's the right one.
Best wishes
Joan
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Joan, what was their address in 1939 please?
Lilian wasn't born in 1939 but the family address then for Richard, Louisa May and their first child was:
24 Sandown Lane, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Thanks very much for your help
Best wishes
Joan
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Don't order using the index details for that marriage. Order from GRO. Say no to index details. Give year as 1960 and father as Richard Jones. Were they C of E?
Blue
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Hi
Welcome to rootschat :)
Did Lily/Lilian have a middle name, Sorry but I can't see her birth registration on freebmd with MMN Worthington to check for myself
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Don't order using the index details for that marriage. Order from GRO. Say no to index details. Give year as 1960 and father as Richard Jones. Were they C of E?
Blue
No idea to religion. Thanks very much for suggestion on ordering from GRO :)
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Hi
Welcome to rootschat :)
Did Lily/Lilian have a middle name, Sorry but I can't see her birth registration on freebmd with MMN Worthington to check for myself
Hi Rosie and thank you :)
I haven't been able to find a birth certificate anywhere. I suspect her mother died either at the time of her birth or very shortly afterwards, both her and the father had TB.
The other children in the family did have middle names and I have been given this information to follow up on as a possibility:
Greetings, Joan, and a warm welcome to Rootschat
I had a look on FreeBMD to find any deaths in Lancashire for a Lily/Lilian/Lillian of the right age and found only two between 18 and 25. One of them could be your aunt:
Dec qtr 1964 Lilian E REEVES age 21, Liverpool S vol 10D p461
There was a marriage: Mar qtr 1960 Lilian E JONES to William REEVES, Liverpool S vol 10d p1131
FreeBMD also has three baptisms in Liverpool South for children named Reeves with the mother's maiden name Jones. It is the policy of Rootschat not to post the names of people who may be livinng, so I cannot list their names, but one will definitely be of interest!
You would need to get the marriage certificate (or find a church register) to see if Lilian E Jones was the daughter of Richard, but this looks promising.
All the best
Philip
Thank you for any help you can offer
Best wishes
Joan
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Possibly her mothers death, she married as just May Worthington
Deaths Jun qtr 1942
May Jones
age 23
Liverpool N. 8b 329
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Possibly her mothers death, she married as just May Worthington
Deaths Jun qtr 1942
May Jones
age 23
Liverpool N. 8b 329
Thank you so much Rosie :)
I have searched and searched for this but May used both false birth dates and addresses on various official documents and I must have missed this. That now gives me the birth for Lilian/Lillian/Lily in the first half of 1943.
Best wishes
Joan
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What makes you think that she died in 1964?
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Possibly her mothers death, she married as just May Worthington
Deaths Jun qtr 1942
May Jones
age 23
Liverpool N. 8b 329
Thank you so much Rosie :)
I have searched and searched for this but May used both false birth dates and addresses on various official documents and I must have missed this. That now gives me the birth for Lilian/Lillian/Lily in the first half of 1943.
Best wishes
Joan
Sorry I have just realised this is in 1942, I am sure she died in 1943 :(
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What makes you think that she died in 1964?
I don't have this as a certainty but family all seem to suggest this is correct.
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I would try to search for her burial then. Trawl through cemetery records.
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Richard Jones and May Worthington were married at St Bridget's Church Wavertree. It's very likely if they remained in that area that their children were baptised there so it would be worth looking at the baptism registers for that church and keep your fingers crossed that the birth date as well as the baptism date were recorded. Then armed with the birth date you could apply for a birth certificate.
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I would try to search for her burial then. Trawl through cemetery records.
I will do that but I need a confirmed married name first. I'm going to start with the possible marriage to William Reeves, even though this contradicts information that her husband's name was Robert, it's currently all I have to go on.
Thanks again for your help :)
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Richard Jones and May Worthington were married at St Bridget's Church Wavertree. It's very likely if they remained in that area that their children were baptised there so it would be worth looking at the baptism registers for that church and keep your fingers crossed that the birth date as well as the baptism date were recorded. Then armed with the birth date you could apply for a birth certificate.
Yes I have got my grandparent's marriage record in front of me and the given address was Ash Grove which is close to St Bridget's. Knowing they were at Sandown Lane in 1939, they could have used the same church but I can't find bapstismal records for the two older children so I'm not overly optimistic about this.
Thanks very much for your help
Joan
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The registers for St Bridget's church are held at Liverpool Record Office, they are not online for the time you want.
Do you have Richard's death certificate? I was just thinking that perhaps he was buried with his wife that might lead to when she died.
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Just another thought, if both parent's died what happened to the children did they have to go into a children's home or did other family members take them? If they went into care there may be records which would help find Lilian's birth date. Or did their father remarry?
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The registers for St Bridget's church are held at Liverpool Record Office, they are not online for the time you want.
Do you have Richard's death certificate? I was just thinking that perhaps he was buried with his wife that might lead to when she died.
Yes of course you are correct, I got the marriage record from the search room at Central Library but I needed a reference to get this, can't remember exactly what this was but I can remember needing to give them some information to find the volume they needed.
No I can't find a record of Richard's death either, I think it was within a year or two of May's but I don't have firm information on this.
Thanks very much for your help
Joan
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I got the marriage record from the search room at Central Library but I needed a reference to get this, can't remember exactly what this was but I can remember needing to give them some information to find the volume they needed.
It might be worth 'phoning the library and asking them what information they need (reference numbers, dates or whatever) then Rootschatters may be able to find it for you.
All the best
Philip
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You could message them to clarify:-
https://liverpool.gov.uk/contact-us/service-area/liverpool-record-office/
Blue
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Just another thought, if both parent's died what happened to the children did they have to go into a children's home or did other family members take them? If they went into care there may be records which would help find Lilian's birth date. Or did their father remarry?
The children went to another part of the family but the guardians have died so I can't ask them, I have recently tried asking their children but there were a good few nasty skeletons in the cupboard in my family and it's a possibility the children were protected from this.
Thanks for your help
Joan
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I got the marriage record from the search room at Central Library but I needed a reference to get this, can't remember exactly what this was but I can remember needing to give them some information to find the volume they needed.
It might be worth 'phoning the library and asking them what information they need (reference numbers, dates or whatever) then Rootschatters may be able to find it for you.
All the best
Philip
Have just realised I saved the index links after my last visit:
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Liverpool/Wavertree/stbridget/
http://archive.liverpool.gov.uk/calmview/TreeBrowse.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&field=RefNo&key=283+BDT%2f2
Thanks very much for your help again Philip :)
Joan
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You could message them to clarify:-
https://liverpool.gov.uk/contact-us/service-area/liverpool-record-office/
Blue
Have got the links now, so can print out exactly what I am looking for.
Thanks again for your help :)
Joan
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If you need to look at physical registers you'll need to make an appointment in advance. If the record is on microfiche you should be able to view without appointment. Looking at the catalogue marriages from 1960 not included perhaps they have physical register for 1960? Need to check that. Gibel may be able to clarify this.
Blue
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If you need to look at physical registers you'll need to make an appointment in advance. If the record is on microfiche you should be able to view without appointment. Looking at the catalogue marriages from 1960 not included perhaps they have physical register for 1960? Need to check that. Gibel may be able to clarify this.
Blue
For the marriage, I needed to look at the physical record in the search room, they were very kind and only made me wait about 20 minutes to access this but I'll stray on the safe side and make an appointment if the baptism records are physical records too.
Thank you for the very helpful advice :)
Joan
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It might be worth looking for a burial for the 1942 May Smith as it could give clues to her location at the time.
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Beyond knowing that the reference would start with 283 I don't know the rest however I know someone who will so have emailed them.
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It might be worth looking for a burial for the 1942 May Smith as it could give clues to her location at the time.
I still think May Jones died in 1943 but if I've got Lilian's date of birth wrong and she was born in 1942, I'll go back to that one. Am going to try searching for baptisms for any/all of the children and see where I go from there.
Thanks very much for your help :)
Joan
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Beyond knowing that the reference would start with 283 I don't know the rest however I know someone who will so have emailed them.
I remembered I had that reference from last time I searched St Bridget's records for Richard and May's wedding, it's here:
http://archive.liverpool.gov.uk/calmview/TreeBrowse.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&field=RefNo&key=283+BDT%2f2
Thanks very much for your help :)
Joan
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Gibel has asked me to check in the LRO - St Bridget's Wavertree has the baptisms in original form so you would need to make an appointment to view them, emailing is the easiest way
https://liverpool.gov.uk/contact-us/service-area/liverpool-record-office/ .
However, marriages are since 1902, original form go up to 1945.
If the church is still in existence I would ask them if they hold the recent registers there.
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Gibel has asked me to check in the LRO - St Bridget's Wavertree has the baptisms in original form so you would need to make an appointment to view them, emailing is the easiest way
https://liverpool.gov.uk/contact-us/service-area/liverpool-record-office/ .
However, marriages are since 1902, original form go up to 1945.
If the church is still in existence I would ask them if they hold the recent registers there.
Thank you very much for your help MaryA :)
I have previously reviewed original form marriage records for this church, so will request access to the baptism records in the same way. Obviously there is no guarantee that the children were baptised there but it's worth a try.
I can't see any reason to believe that Lilian's possible marriage took place in the same church as she was living in a totally different area of Liverpool by then, I think I'm just going to apply for a copy of the marriage certificate and hope it's the right person.
Best wishes
Joan
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Thank you MaryA.
Joan Benson if you go to the Liverpool Library and Achives on a Tuesday afternoon there is a Family History help desk on Floor 3 run by the Liverpool & S W Lancashire FHS. They may be able to come up with more ideas for your search.
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Thank you MaryA.
Joan Benson if you go to the Liverpool Library and Achives on a Tuesday afternoon there is a Family History help desk on Floor 3 run by the Liverpool & S W Lancashire FHS. They may be able to come up with more ideas for your search.
Thanks very much Gibel :)
I would love to do this but I work full time in Manchester, I will definitely plan to take a day off and do this some time in the future.
Best wishes
Joan