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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: McGroger on Thursday 22 September 16 10:52 BST (UK)
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My dad’s uncle, Donald M[a]cGregor (1894 Sydney) had a rough life. The youngest of the family, his mother died when he was 6. His father remarried 2 years later to a much younger woman. He was put into reform school just before his 15th birthday for being “uncontrollable”. He went to war overseas and returned in bad health, physically and mentally. He married in Scotland in 1918 while on leave. He was discharged medically unfit in early 1919 but not returned to Australia til 1920.
He appears in the NSW Police Gazette for 16 July 1930, with a warrant being issued for his arrest for Wife Desertion. A follow up note in the Police Gazette for 31 Dec 1930 says that he had been arrested and charged by Wauchope police. (He was a builder in Sydney.)
I can find no record of his death other than this handwritten note on his Service record:
“Died 18th April 1937. Historian 4/5/38”
One story handed down was:
“Aunty Nell [his sister] said he died by suicide in the early 1930s at somewhere in the Riverina; she was notified, as the only identity he had was his army pay book, in which she had been entered as his next of kin. ‘It was during the depression and he had separated from his wife, I think she may have gone back to Scotland.’”
I think the story may be typical verbal history - a mixture of fact and supposition, a bit misunderstood or lost here, a bit added there. (Would he still be carrying his army pay book around 17 years after being discharged? And it was not the early 1930s - although that was when he first deserted his wife.)
Do you think it possible that, after being charged, he immediately disappeared again, remained missing and (on application from his wife) was eventually declared legally dead (the 7 year term possibly backdated to when he first shot through, or granted in anticipation of 7 years elapsing shortly thereafter? Would they use the wording they did in the army record if that was the case? (Possible, if the historian simply worked from a list of deceased ex-servicemen?) Or would it mean that he really died on that day?
Would love to here from people with any experience in such things.
Thanks.
Peter
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Peter, what is his service number, please?
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Is this his divorce ? https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/item/divorce-papers-effie-scott-macgregor-donald-macgregor
I could photograph this for you next time I am at state records if you wish. It should have some clues if the right one.
Ros
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I think Ros has found the likely divorce.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/17092414 31 July 1934 SMH
the cutting has their marriage as Glasgow, August 1917.
Decree Absolute http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/17143346
JM
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You people are amazing!
Jamjar, the service number is 2065; he joined the 5th Reinforcements 3rd Battalion on 4 March 1915.
Ros, yes, it’s definitely the right people. Please don’t go out of your way for me, but if you do get a photo, that would be great. Thank you.
JM, your 1917 date for the marriage is “correcter” than mine. The 1918 date I quoted was the date of an extract of the marriage certificate made for the army. And thank you for those Trove articles.
Thank you again, you wonderful people.
Now, I’m off to bed.
Cheers, Peter
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I know it's a possibly not, but here is death in 1931.
It has correct father's name, as per war record and Tumut is in the Riverina.
7800/1931 Donald MacGregor parents John and Christina TUMUT
Jamjar
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page 41 of 41, snip attached.
In my view, someone has notified the AIF in 1938 that the chap died on that April 1937 date. The record shows the initials of someone (in the records department section of the AIF) entering the information on that page, on that 1938 date. (Initials of that person likely to include B in the surname.... as it is likely to be the last of the initials )
Sadly, I do not know of the 'Historian' but I think, from the wording that it is likely to have been a publication circulated within the AIF perhaps, and I don't think it is referring to a person.
Snip Attached.
Perhaps there's others who may know of the "Historian". Perhaps an email enquiry to the Australian War Museum may bring light to the enquiry.
JM
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Thanks Jamjar, but no, his mother’s name was Mary Bruce (ms), sorry I didn’t give you that info before.
Thanks JM. I had been working on the assumption that the person who wrote the note was some sort of historian working in the department, updating the records. Never thought of a publication. I’ll try to follow up on your idea.
Thanks again very much for your help, folks.
Cheers, Peter
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Here is an obit for the Donald Macgregor who died in Tumut in 1931 and he is 88 years of age.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article123453804
So we can rule him out.
No problem to take a few photos Peter
Ros
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Jamjar, sorry, I should have written Mary BRICKLEY. (Bruce was his father's mother's name).
Ros, thank you.
Cheers, Peter
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Just a thought...
I have seen Daniel used for Donald in some cases, could this be a possibility?
Annie
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Hi Annie,
Good thought. I've certainly seen it in Scotland, but I haven't seen it in Australia in the 20th century when names were more "fixed". But worth keeping in mind. Thanks.
Cheers, Peter
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I see Effie Scott TURNBULL (her maiden name) married in Ryde in 1937.
Perhaps that is what triggered the 1937 death note
Ros
adding : Effie Scott PRICE died in 1972.
Would she be receiving a pension and have to inform them of changed name/address??
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No help with your search but here is Effie Scott Price's death notice.
adding : if she was 81 when she died in 1972, that means she was about 47 when she remarried so could the daughter be Donald's daughter? (or is my arithmetic astray)
adding : well the divorce file will tell us
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if she was 81 when she died in 1972, that means she was about 47 when she remarried so could the daughter be Donald's daughter? (or is my arithmetic astray)
Maybe from her 1st marriage
From reply #3 JM
Effie Scott Macgregor (formerly Munro, nee
Turnbull)
Annie
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Legal declarations for Death ..... (Order of Presumed Death)
Info from a rellie (retired NSW BDM senior officer not sure if it is Order of Death or Order of Presumed Death)
If the death was presumed to have occurred in NSW, what should have been done would be court action taken in the NSW Supreme Court by his wife/widow/divorced wife with outstanding child maintenance orders/etc or others having a claim on his "deceased" estate, Solicitor/Barrister representing the Parties seeking the declaration.,,.
The SMH newspaper would have displayed the Law Lists for any such action. So check TROVE
If such action was successful, then there should be a direction from the Supreme Court to the Registrar General, causing a NSW dc to be raised.
I cannot see any likely NSW BDM dc indexed for 1937/38 .....
JM
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Maybe from her 1st marriage
From reply #3 JM
Effie Scott Macgregor (formerly Munro, nee
Turnbull)
Annie
Yes it could be Annie :) Hopefully the divorce file will tell us. It should definitely tell us if she was Donald's daughter and probably if she was a daughter from previous marriage.
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Just a brief note. Got a late call to babysit a sick granddaughter so might be a while before I can respond properly. Thanks again, everyone!
Peter
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Ros,
Such a pity that SP is down for maintenance i.e. I can't look up a possible Scottish birth for daughter Judith ::)
Annie
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Yes Annie I see it's down until Monday when they launch the new enhanced website :(
And judging by the recent NSW bdm and State Records "new improved" ::) websites it makes me very doubtful :(
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Ros,
Do you mean doubtful of the birth or the "new improved" site ??? ;D
Annie
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Doubtful of the "new improved" site Annie :) The two NSW updates took much longer than predicted and the enhancements aren't obvious - NSW state records still hasn't fixed theirs properly.
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Ros,
I searched Ancestry for a marriage for Judith in England to a "Charles" who was named as "son-in-law" but came up with nothing although I used all 3 surnames, MacGregor, Munro & Turnbull ::)
I just hope there's not a big change to SP as I hate change having been used to it for so long the way it is.......well "was"
Annie
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There was only one person with a given name Donald whose death was registered in NSW on 19 Apr 1937 and it's not your man.
Effie stated she was 23 when she married Donald in 1917. He stated he was 22.
http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/NAAMedia/ShowImage.aspx?B=1961653&S=20&T=P
Cando
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Agree, and the NSW BDM website took ..... years to sort out most of its 'mess' and there's still much that needs to be sorted there.
The NSW State Records seem to have 'abolished' their published Archives in Brief, and their Guides, and substituted much 'shorter' statements and linked these to their online indexes.
So there's a withdrawal from the public domain of quality information that for years was freely available for any member of the general public, and which may well cause 'new' researchers in future years to basically re-invent the wheel, unaware that those published guides (hundreds of pages in each) ever actually existed..
ADD
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/about-us/history-of-the-registry.aspx (this has been restored to the website after much behind the scenes efforts. It is much harder to find on their website now than on previous iterations, BUT at least it is currently there.)
JM
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Hmm...
Marriage gives maiden name Munro but father's surname Turnbull?
Divorce gives Effie Scott Macgregor (formerly Munro, nee
Turnbull)
Just the sort of errors which confuse us at times.
Annie
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You will see her status was Widow when she married Donald so she was correctly described at the time of her divorce as Effie Scott MACGREGOR formerly MUNRO nee TURNBULL.
Cando
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Dau of James TURNBULL, a pastycook on the marriage cert.
Death
6713/1972
PRICE Effie Scott
Father James Mother Katherine
District Sydney
Cando
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Yes, in that era, the practice in Australia was to list the woman's surnames in that order, most recent back to earliest. Cando is spot on.
JM
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Cando,
I agree but it's the marriage which has the wrong info. (maiden name as Munro)
Annie
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The info on the NAA service file is for an extract from official records held in Glasgow. It may be that the extract is a mis-read of the official records. It would not invalidate the marriage.
JM
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Good thinking about the marriage of daughter Annie :) I looked through NSW marriages for those surnames up until 1965 without success.
I looked through electoral rolls and Effie seems to have been living apart from her new husband after about 1943 1949. Daughter under surname of Price didn't appear at that address. The only death for new husband seems to be in 1974 and I couldn't find a death notice. :(
I'll try to get to records office next week :)
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Yes JM,
I understand that.
I was merely pointing out something which could sometimes confuse people, especially someone new to research ;)
I have just realised Effie's death was in Sydney. I was looking for a marriage for daughter Judith in England as I thought "Paddington" on the death notice was in London, England ::) ;D
Annie
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The AIF form re the marriage in 1917 ....
The AIF form is a pre-printed form, and on the "Bride" side the heading is Maiden surname. The typist entered this as MUNRO ... it would likely be a copy typist and reading from a list. The list likely would show MUNRO as the Bride's surname at the time of her marriage. All that has happened is that the typist preparing the document did not strike out the word 'maiden' ....
JM
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Cando,
I agree but it's the marriage which has the wrong info. (maiden name as Munro)
Annie
I think a bit of commonsense is required when viewing documents such as this. It is not a certificate of marriage but an extract on a AIF document.
Her legal name at the time of marriage was MUNRO no matter what her status ie widow, divorcee or spinster. That is the name in which the married must be recorded.
It is a standard form for all AIF extract of marriages no matter if the bride was previously married or divorced etc.
Cando
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I have just realised Effie's death was in Sydney. I was looking for a marriage for daughter Judith in England as I thought "Paddington" on the death notice was in London, England
Yes, Annie I can relate to that. ;D
Jamjar
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Wonder if it was a case of no body found so no death recorded on BDM?
Jamjar
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JJ,
Not for the 1st time either I must add!
I need to brush up on my geography as there are so many place names in other Countries & me being British, assume the British names without thinking.
I remember someone I know telling me they had lived in a different part of Fife (Scotland) many yrs ago & her hubby was looking for a job within the Fife area. He was offered a job in Newcastle which had them up in arms. There was a Newcastle area in the "New Town" (recently built at the time), Glenrothes, which was not far from where they actually lived but they thought it was Newcastle, England.
Annie
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JJ,
I think the OP said a relative (his sister) had been informed of his suicide as she was down as nok?
Annie
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I'm beginning to wonder if he got someone to inform his sister of his death & did a runner to somewhere but where?
Annie
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I wonder ... (and I mention that my puter's anti-virus software won't let me access NSW State Records at the moment for any bankruptcy files etc .... ::) unsecured site etc warnings errr !, tried again, this time it is that old favourite a 404 error ... I will leave it to other RChatters to see if there's a file for that bankruptcy and if it may advance this quest ... )
18 Feb 1930 Bankruptcy for a chap listed as Donald Macgregor
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/16626752 SMH
19 Feb 1930 Bankruptcy hearing for Donald Macgregor re-examined, and declared concluded.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/28045401 SMH
24 Nov 1933 He was missing for three years or more when this notice appeared
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/17026685 SMH
The index with that Tumut death displays the informant driven given names of the deceased parents.... perhaps it may be the AIF chap.
Official transcription of NSW BDM death registrations should have same info as real deal certificate and arrive as email attachment. Cheaper option, and already transcribed. :)
JM
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JJ,
I think the OP said a relative (his sister) had been informed of his suicide as she was down as nok?
Annie
Yes, but that doesn't mean a body was found. Could have been a note, items left at a certain point.
An ancestor of my was presumed dead when his horse and items were found but no body. No death was recorded on BDM.
Jamjar
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I'm beginning to wonder if he got someone to inform his sister of his death & did a runner to somewhere but where?
Annie
Possible, unless it was police who informed her.
Jamjar
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JJ,
I think the OP said a relative (his sister) had been informed of his suicide as she was down as nok?
Annie
One story handed down was:
“Aunty Nell [his sister] said he died by suicide in the early 1930s at somewhere in the Riverina; she was notified, as the only identity he had was his army pay book, in which she had been entered as his next of kin. ‘It was during the depression and he had separated from his wife, I think she may have gone back to Scotland.’”
JM
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I think the story may be typical verbal history - a mixture of fact and supposition, a bit misunderstood or lost here, a bit added there. (Would he still be carrying his army pay book around 17 years after being discharged? And it was not the early 1930s - although that was when he first deserted his wife.)
I also wonder why Nellie, his sister, was noted as NOK in his expired Army pay book. According to his service file his NOK was initially his father John and then his wife Effie. No mention of a sister.
I have checked a couple of my resources for the Riverina area of NSW. Not a mention of a Donald MACGREGOR.
Cando
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JM/Cando
What would be the reason for the death information in his file long after he'd left the service?
Jamjar
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Yes, I've re-read that now.
You wonder why people tell such blatant lies?
“Aunty Nell [his sister] said he died by suicide in the early 1930s at somewhere in the Riverina; she was notified"
Annie
ADDED
Maybe she was notified as nok by that time as no-one else was available, father deceased? wife & him split?
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My Grandfather's AIF WWI file includes the details of his death in the 1940s. His NSW BDM death cert (not the official transcription but the real deal cert) even includes is AIF service number.
AIF base records clerks were often those clerks who had been working in Admin roles in the states' public services and were medically unfit for enlisting to serve overseas. Many of the NSW BDM clerks of the pre WWI years went to Base Records. :)
I cannot give a definitive answer for you JJ, but those clerks were intent on record keeping.
JM
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Annie, just because it doesn't make sense, it could still be true. Aunt may just be going on what she had been informed of. Maybe someone, even the deceased had written her name in his book.
Jamjar
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My Grandfather's AIF WWI file includes the details of his death in the 1940s. His NSW BDM death cert (not the official transcription but the real deal cert) even includes is AIF service number.
AIF base records clerks were often those clerks who had been working in Admin roles in the states' public services and were medically unfit for enlisting to serve overseas. Many of the NSW BDM clerks of the pre WWI years went to Base Records. :)
I cannot give a definitive answer for you JJ, but those clerks were intent on record keeping.
JM
Thanks JM.
I was wondering how they found out about it, if no death is recorded in BDM.
Could he have died on the Albury/Wodonga boarder and death recorded in VIC?
Jamjar
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Yes, I've re-read that now.
You wonder why people tell such blatant lies?
“Aunty Nell [his sister] said he died by suicide in the early 1930s at somewhere in the Riverina; she was notified"
Annie
Annie, Aunty Nell is not telling blatant lies. She is simply recalling what she can remember. She would be unlikely to have had the opportunity in the 1930s to seek formal confirmation that her brother had died, particularly as she had been informed that it was under such tragic circumstances. The Great Depression was not just an economic failure in Australia, it was also a hugely depriving decade for the entire population. Men tramped thousands of miles looking for work. Their wives were untrained for work outside of the home, and this was an era before the Pill, so there were many children in each household. No income, kicked out of their rental accommodation, and no prospects. Likely, Aunty Nell was more concerned about her living family than in spending any spare shillings on sending telegrams to police stations to ask for the whereabouts of her brother's remains.
JM
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JJ,
I made an addition to my post which you may have missed?
Annie
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JJ,
I made an addition to my post which you may have missed?
Annie
Yes, Annie and they had to have got her name and address from someone. ;)
Jamjar
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Here is memoriam for Effie in 1973
Note that only the last granddaughter is mentioned. Yes I have looked for deaths in NSW for those little girls with those parents' names and haven't found them. Perhaps they are daughters of another child?
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From NSW BDM online index death registrations
UNKNOWN (Male) # 20188/1932
ADULT Age Unknown, death at Narrandera registered at NARRENDERA
UNKNOWN Male # 259/1932
aged 37 Yrs, at Sydney registered SYDNEY
UNKNOWN (Male) #3151/1933
at Tocumwal, registered TOCUMWAL
many other examples, Tocumwal .... that's Riverina.
JM
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http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/194341349 16 June 1933
Father identifies son's trinkets at Tocumwal
JM
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I searched the Vic deaths at the same time as my Riverina Resources.
Is this Donald's parents and his sister's headstone at Woronora Cemetery?
http://austcemindex.com/inscription?id=9093364
http://austcemindex.com/inscription?id=9093366
Would there be an inquest file 'somewhere' for his suicide/death? At NSW records?
Cando
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Managed to have a quick read between child-sitting duties.
Wow! You people are like a dog with a bone. Thank you!
Just a quick clarification on the aunty Nell bit:
My source for the story is a book by a second cousin, “From Glenquaich to New South Wales: The Story of John McGregor, his forebears and their descendants”. In it, that part of Donald's story is re-told by a granddaughter of John McGregor (Donald’s father) from what she heard from her aunty Nell (Ellen/Nell M[a]cGregor who never married).
So, by the time it’s reached us, quite a bit could have been varied, as they tend to with things not written down.
Yes, Cando, that’s them.
Sorry, haven’t read everything - and must go. Duty calls again.
Peter
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I wondered about this electoral enrolment. Probably at the grasping at straws level now :o
Ellen MACGREGOR living on Zara [station], Wangenella, north of Deniliquin in 1935 and 1937. Occupation Home duties No other MACGREGOR enrolled to vote at the same address.
Cando
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Would there be an inquest file 'somewhere' for his suicide/death? At NSW records?
Cando
There certainly should be a record of it even if not a file, as was the case with my ancestor.
Narrandera is also Riverina.
Jamjar
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Sands Pastoral Directory 1930
Deniliquin Pastures Protection district
C L FAULKNER, Zara, Wangenella
36 Horses
33 Cattle
15714 Sheep
65817 Acres
Also
FS Faulkner & Sons, Wangenella Estate, Finlay.
34 Horses
89 Cattle
15501 Sheep
37975 Acres
ADD
Falkiner and other alternative spellings :) may be significant.
JM
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Another quick note:
Nell, as far as I'm aware, spent all her adult life in Sydney suburbs so probably no connection with Narrandera.
Don had a brother Robert with service record 3409. His initial next of kin was N. MacGregor, so maybe that's where that part of the story came from. Family may have thought Nell was the nok for both. Bob joined in Brisbane, Don in Sydney - perhaps that's why there were different noks.
Gotta go again. Thanks, again.
Peter
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No help with Donald but this is, perhaps, an obit for another brother, John MCGREGOR who is listed on the grave memorial for their father and mother put up by Cando from Austcemindex.
John died Grafton, 27 March 1952, aged 71 and born in Glasgow if the obit is correct
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/195520224
Judith
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No help with Donald but this is, perhaps, an obit for another brother, John MCGREGOR who is listed on the grave memorial for their father and mother put up by Cando from Austcemindex.
John died Grafton, 27 March 1952, aged 71 and born in Glasgow if the obit is correct
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/195520224
Judith
Yes, that fits with info on Woronora website, Judith.
Jamjar
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Presbyterian Monumental - Section B:
0019 Mary - 5-6-1901 burial
0019 John - 27-3-'52 burial
0019 Ellen - 16-4-'78 burial
0020 John - 8-7-'49 burial
0020 Dorothy - 3-9-'88 ashes
Jamjar
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This isn't about Donald, but does show the existence of 'AIF Historian'.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article122059720
Jamjar
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Hi everyone,
I’ve now had a chance to have a good read and have summarised some of the findings into a timeline:
Donald MacGregor, whose wife had him charged with Desertion in 2nd half 1930, disappears until a note made in 1938 appears in his army service record stating he died April 1937.
Findings include:
Possibly the Donald MacGregor bankrupted in early 1930;
Disappears from known records after arrest for wife desertion in later 1930;
Divorce proceedings underway 1933 with Donald to respond by 21 Feb 1934;
Unknown male deaths registered in 1930s in localities that could fit with verbal story of suicide in Riverina. One, although unknown, given an age of 37 in 1932 which could fit with Donald (born 1894). However this was in Sydney.
Army record noted deceased April 1937;
Wife remarries 1937.
No other record of death.
Speculation, but I’m thinking that he disappeared altogether 1930, became an unnamed body which possibly was suspected but not proven to be his, and was declared legally dead on application from his wife prior to her second marriage, with the army being notified as a part of that application.
I’d like to thank everyone involved for their input - Jamjar, rosball, majam, Rosinish, cando and judb. What a monumental effort! You’re all worth more money... Ahh, umm - sorry, maybe next week.
Thanks again.
Cheers, Peter
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UNKNOWN Male # 259/1932
aged 37 Yrs, at Sydney registered SYDNEY
How can one be unknown with a known age? ???
Jamjar
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Bean was significant chap.
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/AWMOHWW1/
Might be worth an email enquiry re the AIF record's page 41 entry.
https://www.awm.gov.au/research/
JM
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UNKNOWN Male # 259/1932
aged 37 Yrs, at Sydney registered SYDNEY
How can one be unknown with a known age? ???
Jamjar
There would likely be a comment on the record itself that would explain. Likely also there had been in inquest to determine cause of death.
There's pages and pages of "Unknown" registrations. Very very sad.
JM
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Speculation, but I’m thinking that he disappeared altogether 1930, became an unnamed body which possibly was suspected but not proven to be his, and was declared legally dead on application from his wife prior to her second marriage, with the army being notified as a part of that application.
I have not found any indication at Trove newspapers to help advance the thought re declaring him legally dead. I am sure that even in that era the newspapers should have carried adverts looking for him as a missing person to prove to the courts that he had been sought, prior to declaring him dead. I am also sure that the court lists would have mentioned his name and their purpose.
Do you have the marriage cert for that next marriage, if so, what status did the official (clergy/registrar) record for her .... widow/divorcee? And, were there other margin comments?
JM
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I see Effie Scott TURNBULL (her maiden name) married in Ryde in 1937.
Perhaps that is what triggered the 1937 death note
Ros
adding : Effie Scott PRICE died in 1972.
Would she be receiving a pension and have to inform them of changed name/address??
As she had divorced Donald, and had a Decree Absolute (reply #3), there would not have been any reason for her to have received an AIF pension or to keep the AIF informed of her changed name/address.
It would be interesting to know how she was described on the 1937 marriage
JM
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He could have just changed his name and moved on. However, suicide wasn't taked about openly like it is, today. You wouldn't think it was something passed through the family as being something said by an aunt if it wasn't the case.
Jamjar
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I agree JJ, very rarely mentioned, and even rarer to share the mention. Very hushed innuendo type mentions only, and not by single women of any age.
JM
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A few puzzling things.
Aunt was informed i.e. it would be known what the deceased's name was & as JJ said, the informant would have got the aunt's details from somewhere/someone so why no death record in his name?
I am of the belief he possibly "faked" the death/got someone to inform his sister & vanished elsewhere with possibly a change of name too?
However, it would be good to find out different even if only to close that chapter.
Annie
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Would there be an inquest file 'somewhere' for his suicide/death? At NSW records?
Cando
There certainly should be a record of it even if not a file, as was the case with my ancestor.
Narrandera is also Riverina.
Jamjar
An online index of NSW inquests only extends to 1937. I understand not all inquest papers/files survived. In many cases only the registers survived.
One of my OH's ancestors died in NSW and there is no death registration because his body was never found.
Perhaps Ros or JM know more about the inquest files NSW records. I find their new website frustrating. So easy to find things with a simple search on the old one. Perhaps I no longer have the patience to learn to navigate the new one. :-X :-X
Cando
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I agree Cando, the new site is dreadful.
Jamjar
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I am familiar with the State Records Office when it was known as the Archives Office, and was a stand alone institution, having previously been hived off from the NSW State Library. Now it is part of a huge financial department, staff probably have toolbox meetings each morning, and there's likely KPI reviews quarterly (just how does anyone expect staff to find the time to actually help the general public with their archive enquiries .... worse still how do PhD students get along now) .....
If I am not careful I may actually use some foul words to describe how I feel about NSW SR. And as for their current iteration of a website ......... what do we pay taxes for .... someone to redesign webpages to enter into competition with other departments of the same 'corporate' government?
I apologise for becoming irate at near midnight ... is there a full moon?
PS, I also apologise to our OP for making political statements on a thread that is of significant interest. Finding 'Unknowns' and reuniting them with their living relatives can be difficult but has great outcomes.
JM
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You've got a bit of a cunumdrum haven't you. If Australian law was the same as British law then I believe a person could be assumed dead after seven years - hence the wife married seven years after his disappearance.
On the other hand he was discharged from the army as medically unfit and might have been able to apply for an army pension at some point. Thus I think it reasonable that he carried his ID with him. If he wasn't on speaking terms with his parents it's logical that he would have given his sister's name. There's always an address given for the next of kin and that's where official notification is given - at this point we don't know who was living at that address. Would the local police records have any details of the notification process?
The sister stated she'd be "notified" but didn't say whether notified by her parents or an official. Personally, I think the poor chap suffered from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder which got worse as the years passed by (Youtube have some WWI filmed examples of Shell Shock). He'd have had flashbacks, mood swings, his marriage would have broken down and he'd have walked out thinking they'd be better off without him - or the wife could have given him the "Big E" (big elbow = get lost). I believe many sufferers eventually also hear voices in their head talking to them which may be what happened here and he decided to end it all. As it was a sin to commit suicide he won't be buried in any hallowed ground.
William Booth (1829-1912) who founded the Salvation Army was prompted to help homeless men when he kept seeing them trying to take their own lives by jumping off London Bridge.
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Rena, you've made quite a few assumptions here.
I suggest you look up his war record and the first thing you'll discover is that his father was listed as next of kin. That suggests to me that he may have been on speaking terms with him.
You certainly can't know what he was suffering from, again read the record for clues. Nor, can you possibly know his moods, reason for separation etc.
I have no doubt that burial is very likely to take place in our cemeteries regardless of how one has died.
Jamjar
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Rena, you've made quite a few assumptions here.
I suggest you look up his war record and the first thing you'll discover is that his father was listed as next of kin. That suggests to me that he may have been on speaking terms with him.
You certainly can't know what he was suffering from, again read the record for clues. Nor, can you possibly know his moods, reason for separation etc.
I have no doubt that burial is very likely to take place in our cemeteries regardless of how one has died.
Jamjar
Hi Jamjar,
I agree that I didn't physically look through any of his records, I read the thread.
I did see that his father was stated as next of kin and I tried to make my wording clear that when his sister used the word "notified" I stated that we did not know who had notified her - it could have been her father or somebody else. I then suggested that perhaps there might be a historic record in the police files (in case they had been tasked to pass on the information concerning the deceased).
As regards to cemeteries - I specifically mentioned "Hallowed ground" which refers to church cemeteries. I'm pretty sure in the time span that the church considered it a sin to commit suicide - hence my comment. I don't know if his family were buried in a church cemetery or an alternative cemetery, I was just giving an example of where/why he might not have been found with the family.
Your point about my not knowing the mental state of the veteran. You're quite right, I don't know the mental state of the man. As I made plain in my post; I was offering another opinion based on the original question which said:-
<My dad’s uncle, Donald M[a]cGregor (1894 Sydney) had a rough life. ... He went to war overseas and returned in bad health, physically and mentally.>
You seem rather het up that I offered the alternative of PTSD to the supposition of a man who changed his name in order not to be found. When I read that Doanld had been in combat, then after a few years had lost his job, lost his family and then walked away, it exactly mirrored that of my friend's son. (This is why I know about sufferers' mood swings, flashbacks, voices, etc., etc and I managed to get help for them, which was sorely needed, as at the time it wasn't common knowledge).
Regards Rena (my real name)
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Yes Rena it was good to be reminded of how much the poor man was probably suffering and why.
Sometimes we get so locked into searching for records and feeling frustrated when we can't find them that we lose sight of the person behind the quest.
Ros
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A few responses to NSW Record Office queries :
- the bankruptcy index is from 1888-1928 and the only man of approx that name is
Donald Macintyre Gower McGREGOR who in 1927 was a stock and station agent in Glen Innes.
(adding : I assume we can rule him out)
- there is no inquest index - I'll ask about inquests when I am there.
- the keyname search covers most of the indexes http://indexes.records.nsw.gov.au/keyname.aspx
I plan to go to Records Office on Tuesday. Hopefully the divorce records will include some hints of where he may have gone or at least details of his children.
Whoops better prebook some records - so much harder now with the improved system ;D.
But the staff are wonderful and so very helpful under such trying conditions.
Ros
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As I made plain in my post; I was offering another opinion based on the original question
Yes you did and none of it was based on actual fact. You made sweeping over generalisations when impling that you knew his physical health, mental state and family relationship statuses.
The definition of 'het up' as per Merriam Webster dictionary is very excited or upset. I can't see that I was either of those. Nor am I now, while sitting in the sun on the back veranda sipping tea.
I would love to debate all that was wrong with your post, but that would only degrade all the hard work that had gone into this thread, prior to it.
Jamjar (real pet name given to me by a very special aunt)
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Yes Rena it was good to be reminded of how much the poor man was probably suffering and why.
Sometimes we get so locked into searching for records and feeling frustrated when we can't find them that we lose sight of the person behind the quest.
Ros
Ros, I have to disagree with you here.
I don't believe we do lose sight and I certainly don't think you do. We often comment on how sad something is, as JM has done in this thread. We read a lot of articles on Trove and I know that I am often saddened by them. You know the ones that we link to and make very little comment on, other to say how sad it is.
Jamjar
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- there is no inquest index - I'll ask about inquests when I am there.
Ros....does this help. I would think the first source mentioned may be helpful.
An online subscription website has compiled a database but only to 1937 from the following sources. No help for 1937 records.... but the resource extends to 1942.
New South Wales Government. Registers of Coroners’ Inquests and Magisterial Inquiries, 1834–1942 (microfilm, NRS 343, rolls 2921–2925, 2225, 2763–2769). State Records Authority of New South Wales, Kingswood, New South Wales, Australia.
New South Wales Government. Sydney City Coroner: Registers of Inquests and Inquiries, 1862–1926 (microfilm, NRS 1783, rolls 1391–1396). State Records Authority of New South Wales, Kingswood, New South Wales, Australia.
New South Wales Government. Reports of Inquests, 1796–1824 (microfilm, NRS 2232, rolls 2232, 2233). State Records Authority of New South Wales, Kingswood, New South Wales, Australia.
Cheers
Cando
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Thanks Cando :)
( You know how much I love microfilm ;D )
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You've got a bit of a cunumdrum haven't you. If Australian law was the same as British law then I believe a person could be assumed dead after seven years - hence the wife married seven years after his disappearance.
Hi there Rena,
We need to remember that 'the wife' had been granted a Decree Absolute by the New South Wales Supreme Court in 1935. Decree Absolute followed from the Decree Nisi, which was the outcome of her application for the Dissolution of her August 1917 Marriage. She divorced him, her status on her next marriage ought to be "Divorcee - Petitioner" . So, errr... she was no longer 'the wife' of Donald Macgregor when she next married.
"Australian Law" .... errrr .... until the mid 1970s (when Federal 'no fault' divorce laws were introduced), Divorces were not dealt with under any "Commonwealth of Australia" courts, but were dealt with under the legislative Acts of the Parliaments of the six foundation states. So New South Wales law governed how to proceed with Divorce where one of the applicants was resident in New South Wales. (and each state operated similarly). NSW Divorces were handled via the NSW Supreme Court.
I see Effie Scott TURNBULL (her maiden name) married in Ryde in 1937.
Perhaps that is what triggered the 1937 death note
Ros
adding : Effie Scott PRICE died in 1972.
Would she be receiving a pension and have to inform them of changed name/address??
As she had divorced Donald, and had a Decree Absolute (reply #3), there would not have been any reason for her to have received an AIF pension or to keep the AIF informed of her changed name/address.
It would be interesting to know how she was described on the 1937 marriage
JM
JM
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As I made plain in my post; I was offering another opinion based on the original question
Yes you did and none of it was based on actual fact. You made sweeping over generalisations when impling that you knew his physical health, mental state and family relationship statuses.
The definition of 'het up' as per Merriam Webster dictionary is very excited or upset. I can't see that I was either of those. Nor am I now, while sitting in the sun on the back veranda sipping tea.
I would love to debate all that was wrong with your post, but that would only degrade all the hard work that had gone into this thread, prior to it.
Jamjar (real pet name given to me by a very special aunt)
I'm sorry that you're taking my postings in a way that I never intended. There were nine pages showing all the stirling research done by people - the main thing missing that I could see was actual proof of a burial, which might mean Donald had maybe changed his name for some reason, or could mean that his name had been mistranscribed on a vital record.
As you will notice - I don't live in Australia and don't know my way around all the records so I ummed and ahhed quite a while before posting my suggestion that maybe the local police records could verify the family had been notified.
Please don't degrade my honest opinion of what COULD have happened to this ancestor. An ancestor who had served his country to the best of his ability in awful circumstances and had been discharged as quoted. Facts are important but so are emotions and our ancestors experienced emotions the same as we do. Here's a fact about conditions our ancestors experienced; <At the Battle of the Somme in 1916, almost 1.8 million shells were fired on German lines in the space of a week> (alphahistory.com/worldwar1/weapons).
My husband was a regular in H.M. Forces and I still have my contacts. Veterans are extremely proud people and even today find it difficult to admit they need help, which is the reason one of my friends (a paratrouper) attended three funerals within the space of a year to bury healthy active service men in their thirties who couldn't cope with the mental turmoil.
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You've got a bit of a cunumdrum haven't you. If Australian law was the same as British law then I believe a person could be assumed dead after seven years - hence the wife married seven years after his disappearance.
Hi there Rena,
We need to remember that 'the wife' had been granted a Decree Absolute by the New South Wales Supreme Court in 1935. Decree Absolute followed from the Decree Nisi, which was the outcome of her application for the Dissolution of her August 1917 Marriage. She divorced him, her status on her next marriage ought to be "Divorcee - Petitioner" . So, errr... she was no longer 'the wife' of Donald Macgregor when she next married.
"Australian Law" .... errrr .... until the mid 1970s (when Federal 'no fault' divorce laws were introduced), Divorces were not dealt with under any "Commonwealth of Australia" courts, but were dealt with under the legislative Acts of the Parliaments of the six foundation states. So New South Wales law governed how to proceed with Divorce where one of the applicants was resident in New South Wales. (and each state operated similarly). NSW Divorces were handled via the NSW Supreme Court.
I see Effie Scott TURNBULL (her maiden name) married in Ryde in 1937.
Perhaps that is what triggered the 1937 death note
Ros
adding : Effie Scott PRICE died in 1972.
Would she be receiving a pension and have to inform them of changed name/address??
As she had divorced Donald, and had a Decree Absolute (reply #3), there would not have been any reason for her to have received an AIF pension or to keep the AIF informed of her changed name/address.
It would be interesting to know how she was described on the 1937 marriage
JM
JM
Hi JM,
Please don't tell my offspring that I missed a point (they think I know it all).
Thanks for pointing it out - I went back to see why I missed that fact. I didn't miss seeing it - what I did was go though the initial query which included the seven year point and answered that portion. There was so much information found that when I glanced through the pages to check - I didn't do a very good job of checking all the postings again. :-\
Apologies all round.
Rena
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I’ve written an email to the Australian War Memorial. See what sort of response comes back. Jamjar, thanks for the tip about Charles Bean.
Majm, no, sorry I don’t have a certificate. Unfortunately money doesn’t permit all I’d like - or, perhaps more honestly, fear of SWMBO restricts my spending.
Rena, welcome to the party!
He certainly did have a troubled life, right from the start. I mentioned some details earlier. Two additional things: on his admittance to reform school his character was described as “bad”, he had “bad companions” and he was “uncontrollable”, and he had a scar on one foot from a wagon running over him! And Donald and Effie appear to have had no children, which perhaps was also the result of his war injuries. Some of the symptoms described on his record suggest the possibility of him having been gassed, and apparently mustard gas can cause sexual dysfunction on top of everything else it did to people’s bodies. It’s no wonder he could have been suicidal.
Ros, thanks again for your kind offer of checking out those records. Yeah, you can rule out the Glen Innes Donald. But here’s a really weird coincidence for you. Forgive this off topic ramble, please: Our house, in Inverell - only 65 kays from Glen Innes - was built in 1903 by Duncan Alan McIntyre and Jesse Eglantine Jane McGregor - no relation (not in the last 400 years anyway). So the Glen Innes Donald Macintire Gower McGregor could be somehow related to the people who built our house!
See what happens next week. Thanks again, everyone. Have a good weekend.
Cheers, Peter
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Just a quick note in the form of an apology in advance if I’m a bit slow in responding to any further posts from you great folks on this topic this week. My sister-in-law is turning 70 next weekend and at the main venue - our place - it's starting to build and there’s going to be a cast of thousands - well, to a wee wallflower it seems like it.
Cheers, Peter
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Received an email form letter from Australian War Memorial Research Centre:
"Our target response date is: 11/10/2016 11:00 AM"
Peter
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Hi Peter,
If it wasn't an automated response, I'd say they will be putting in an effort for you which is encouraging.
Annie
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Hi Peter,
Have pm'd link to Effie's divorce. At a quick skim there were no issue of marriage and no-one had seen Donald since Inverell.
The autopsy files are on ancestry who have created a searchable database and none found for Donald. Ancestry have included image of microfilm of all NSW Inquests Index up to 1938? Can search this to check - about 800 pages mostly in chronological order with clumps of names starting with same letter but also lots of exceptions - eg little clump 1929 Mc's after 1933 etc etc.
No I haven't :)
cheers,
Ros
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Hi Ros,
When you mention Inverell, and last seen, is there a date actually mentioned?
JM
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Probably JM :) Vaguely recall that he was arrested there. I don't get time to read them properly - just skim and click - trying to get through as many as possible.
Still trying to organise and upload several other files.
I'll send you a link :)
Ros
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Ros, thanks again for your kind offer of checking out those records. Yeah, you can rule out the Glen Innes Donald. But here’s a really weird coincidence for you. Forgive this off topic ramble, please: Our house, in Inverell - only 65 kays from Glen Innes - was built in 1903 by Duncan Alan McIntyre and Jesse Eglantine Jane McGregor - no relation (not in the last 400 years anyway). So the Glen Innes Donald Macintire Gower McGregor could be somehow related to the people who built our house!
Cheers, Peter
Hi Ros,
When you mention Inverell, and last seen, is there a date actually mentioned?
JM
Have just filtered the thread for "Inverell", but see only this mention quoted above from Peter.
What have I missed? :D
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Reply #94 Sue. :)
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The "Divorce" papers originally delivered to Donald's father's last known address (a suburb of Sydney) but returned 'unclaimed' to Effie's solicitor. (so Donald's father was believed to be alive and a Sydney resident in 1934, and Effie had NO current address for Donald at that time).
ADD
There's mention much earlier in the thread about one or two listings in NSW Police Gazette re wife desertion, arrest up around Wauchope ....
JM
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So, last sighted in person July 1930 at Inverell, when arrested and appeared in court and ordered to make monthly payments for support of his wife..
Paid once and not heard of again.
Sue
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That's it Sue .... nothing since an arrest in 1930, one payment, and then ziltch until the AIF file has a DD for April 1937, entered on the file in 1938.
The AWM are usually very thorough in their replies, particularly for the files for WWI AIF men and women.
ADD
Donald was known as "Don" to family members.... perhaps that may help with any database searchings.
I have not looked for Gregory MacDonald, but I wonder if he may have reversed his names? If so, that would become a needle in a haystack....
JM
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Great thought JM but would be a hard task not only finding him but proving it was him.
Annie
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I think the judge also said that he was confident that Donald was a resident of NSW. (was he privy to some other info or was there anything in there to inspire that confidence?)
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The test for the Judge to hear the case would be that he was satisfied that the petitioner was NSW resident and that the petitioner (or her legal representatives) had sought to locate the respondent. The respondent (Donald McGregor) did not need to be resident in NSW, but it is obvious from correspondence lodged with the Supreme Court and retained in the file, that Effie knew how to contact Donald's father and siblings who were NSW residents, and that there was not any hostility in their friendships.
Effie's statement shows her lack of financial means. The maximum the solicitor was permitted to charge was agreed to as £7. I have seen other NSW divorce files in that era where the Court registrar influenced these low fees. I note that Effie was not drawing a pension from the AIF when she sought a divorce.
JM
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Thank you very much, Ros. You’re a Legend!
Just to briefly pull together some relevant facts from the court case:
According to Effie, Donald deserted her in March 1930. She received letters from him that showed he was in Inverell. The last letter was in about May, she said.
She believed he was brought before the Children’s Court in Inverell with maintenance of 1 pound 10 shillings per week to be paid. She received one payment. [But see response to Sparrett below.]
The last date in the court case is 5 March 1935 when the Decree Nisi was dated and stamped requesting confirmation from the court. [Presumably that is the date when the decree becomes absolute?]
Looking back at his army record, when he first joined in 1915, in response to the question regarding previous service it says: “Australian Rifles 2 years resigned left for Inverell”.
So he had had some sort previous relationship with the Inverell area.
The date recorded on his service file, “Died 18 April 1937” looks suspiciously like he was declared dead as of that date, it being almost exactly 7 years since he first deserted Effie.
Given his background - losing his mother early, getting run over by a wagon, being sent to reform school, army health history, probably been gassed, possible inability to have children, job problems (mentioned in one letter in the court case) - the probability of him being one of those many unidentified bodies mentioned in an earlier post by JM is high.
It’s a real mystery, all right. A couple of curious, (perhaps) related things: JM earlier mentioned an unidentified body in NSW BDM that was given an age (37) in 1932 - which could have been Donald’s age (born 1894) - but the district was Sydney. And I mentioned a family story handed down, a small part of which being that he was 36 when he died (but this could have just meant he was that age when he disappeared),
Will be interesting to see what the Australian War Memorial sends back. (They sent a form letter saying their “target response date” was 11 October.)
A couple of responses to individual posts:
Sue, curiously, the Police Gazette cites Wauchope as the place he was arrested. It may have been Effie’s memory or perhaps he was taken to Inverell for trial, although that’s quite a long way.
JM, yes Don’s father was still alive. He lived at the same address until about 1946 when his property was resumed for a school; then lived with a son in Mortdale until the son died (1947); then with a son in Grafton until he (the father) died (1949).
And, if anyone was wondering, no, there is definitely no connection with the fact I live in Inverell - I was first transferred here by a bank. (Unless they were in on this mystery too!)
Thanks again to everyone for your continuing interest and help in this story.
Cheers, Peter
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Pleasure to help Peter - wish there had been more info.
Here is a little description of him (not sure if posted before)
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Sands Sydney Directory 1930
MacGREGOR Don., Blaxland Rd, Ryde.
JM
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Hi, just read through this interesting thread and one thing strikes me as an anomaly for what its worth.
The OP says that Effie believed he was brought before the Children's Court in Inverell re maintenance. Don't know anything about the Australian legal system but would a Children's Court deal with wife maintenance? Elsewhere it is suggested that there were no children.
Pheno
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Hi, just read through this interesting thread and one thing strikes me as an anomaly for what its worth.
The OP says that Effie believed he was brought before the Children's Court in Inverell re maintenance. Don't know anything about the Australian legal system but would a Children's Court deal with wife maintenance? Elsewhere it is suggested that there were no children.
Pheno
Yes, at that time in the New South Wales judicial system, when a wife sought maintenance from her husband, the hearing was conducted within what was commonly referred to as the 'Children's Court' system, as usually the hearing would also be considering the figure to set in orders to cover each child. That same system also heard judicial separations, even when there were no children of the marriage. The Child Welfare Act dates from 1939. The application Effie sought for wife maintenance was much earlier in that same decade.
JM
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G’day Pheno, welcome to the puzzle!
There was a (NSW) Deserted Wives and Children Act 1901-1964, and the Children’s Court (of NSW) was established in 1905 with courts set up in Sydney, Newcastle, Parramatta, Burwood and Broken Hill.
An educated guess: Perhaps, although there were no children involved in Effie and Donald’s case, it came under the jurisdiction of the 1901 Act, so was tried in the Children’s Court. I doubt there would have been a dedicated court set up in Inverell, but perhaps there was a travelling Special Magistrate and the next convenient sitting was to be in Inverell. (In those days I think Inverell as a country centre loomed much larger than it does today.)
Thanks, Pheno.
JM, sorry to duplicate some of your advice. You learn so many things you never thought you’d be interested in, stimulated by the thrill of the chase!
To other Rootschatters following this case, Pheno also PM’d me some personal details of a relative of theirs, regarding army paybooks and why they could be carrying one around many years after leaving the army (identity proof/medical record etc). Thanks again, Pheno.
I think the verbal history in this case is a two-edged sword. You don’t know what parts of remembered detail are facts and what parts are red herrings. An example is the reference to the Riverina. All documentary evidence suggests he moved around the north-west of NSW (Wauchope/Inverell).
My current thoughts/speculation (!) are, considering all the evidence that’s come to light so far:
Donald either accidentally or suicidally drowned in a river near Inverell.
That a badly deteriorated body was found.
That an army pay book was found either in clothes on the body or nearby.
That the body was officially not identified but the family were informed that they’d also found Donald’s pay book pay book and that it could be him.
That someone in the family, unfamiliar with Inverell, heard the words “river near Inverell” but reinterpreted this as “in the Riverina”.
Cheers, Peter
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Yes, Circuit Magistrates operated within the "Children's Court" system in the rural districts for many years, right up until the 1970s when the Federal legislation came in re Family Courts.
The hearings were often held 'in camera' (so a closed court session) in the court rooms of the "District Court". Just 'googled' photos of NSW Inverell Court House and yes, Inverell's court house would definitely have been 'around' in the 1930s. :)
When a body is found, the police become involved. That was also the procedure back in the 1930s. An inquest is held, or at least a coroner determines the cause of death. But both those administrative functions, back in the 1930s, could occur AFTER the coroner issues an authority for the body to be buried. In any of the rural districts of NSW in that era, the local newspapers would have reported on the discovery, and appealed to the general public. Many of those rural newspapers are still being digitised and then will be uploaded to Trove. Trove has funding issues at present.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/search?adv=y
and
http://trove.nla.gov.au/gazette/search?adv=y
JM
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Here's an obit for Donald McIntyre Gower McGregor - just in case we were desperate enough to reconsider the man who was bankrupt in Inverell http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article139876376
Definitely not him.
I think we need to move the search to Inverell - physically - and chat among the locals. I hear there is a big bash on this weekend and luckily Peter has told us where he lives and welcomed us to the party ;D
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This is certainly the kind of search which lends itself to speculation.
So here are my speculative thoughts. ;D
It is sad to think that the only identification for the deceased was an army pay book. The 1930s were tough times and it is possible the item could fall into the wrong hands and, in fact not be connected to the deceased man. In other words, the man was not Donald, though the pay book was his.
On the other hand ;D if the deceased was him, ??? I think it is entirely plausible that he had promptly left the Inverell district after the order was issued for payments, and may well have drifted to the Riverina, as stated in the family story.
He was a carpenter and, as an itinerant, may have picked up work wherever he found himself.
Sue
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Thanks JM, Ros and Sue - all good ideas welcome.
Ros, just let me know any special dietary requirements. I’ll put the cat to work removing any meat from the snags and excess water from the beer.
Cheers, Peter
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I think we need to move the search to Inverell - physically - and chat among the locals. I hear there is a big bash on this weekend and luckily Peter has told us where he lives and welcomed us to the party ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I'm on a strictly champers-only diet Peter. And I like to open the bottles myself (no offence to the cat ). Good luck with the function :).
By the way I have been slowly browsing through the image of the microfilm provided by ancestry of
the coroner's inquests and am well past the indexes and onto the actual chronological inquest records. (Not that I mistrust ancestry but there is scope for scribbled notes in margin or remarks etc)
However after a few hours I am only on page 247 of 906 (July 1935) :( If anyone wants to start from the other end ....? Or the middle ...?
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Ros,
In that case, you have no time for being on here....get back to work & we will hear from you on Tuesday with all your possibilities ;D
Annie
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:) :D
Here's a long shot Annie. An unknown man about 35-45 found near Lithgow with strychnine poisoning and the coroners remarks really clarify it.
adding : aha they are dates when the body is moved somewhere (I thought the coroner needed more work on his fractions)
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I am having trouble deciphering most of it.
But they are all dates of August 1935 and into Sept. 1935 I think.
Sue
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Ros,
Like Sue, I'm struggling too in deciphering it & just realised the date is not in the topic heading to refer back to & as I'm now in "reply" it will take too long to go back for the date declared dead.
However, I think I see the word Police, does the date next to that match with date of death declared?
Annie
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Sadly, in the 1930s, many NSW families (some would say the vast majority across all the states) were impoverished by the Great Depression. We need to remember that Australia in the 1930s was reliant on the overseas trade in wool and wheat, and a continuing inflow of foreign capital. But between 1929 and 1932 the world price for wool fell by around 50% and for wheat by around 60%, while the prices for manufactured goods did not fall to any significant extent. Unemployment rose to 30% of our working population by 1931. It took until late 1939 (ie the outbreak of WWII) for the sustained recovery.
30% of the workforce ….. in the 1930s …. Mainly males….. tramping from town to town looking for work or a ration of food.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/162524417 Mudgee Guardian 1 August 1935.
Human Remains found April 1935.
Mystery Skelton
Identification Problem
A Magisterial inquiry, regarding the finding of human remains at the foot of Hassan’s Walls on April 11, was held at Lithgow this week. The deputy coroner (Mr G Coates) found that there was no possibility of establishing the identity of the deceased. Evidence pointed to the fact that death had been caused by strychnine, whether self administered or not being unknown.
Poisoned Meat was routinely used in baits purposedly set to kill wild animals. The preferred poison was strychnine.
JM
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So this chap maybe
UNKNOWN Male
16461/1935
55/6O Yrs Byron Bay
Lithgow
UNKNOWN Male
15456/1935
Byron Bay
Sue
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And Lithgow Ambulance sought to keep the skeleton
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/17196881 SMH 2 August 1935.
There are many UNKNOWN males listed for 1935 at NSW BDM, but unless the coroner directed the burial of the remains of the chap found at Hassans Wall, then there would not be a funeral director to seek out a pro temp death registration to lead to a burial order to then complete a death registration. So it is likely that there would not be an entry at NSW BDM. :( for the Magistrate's Inquiry mentioned in the cuttings I have posted.
JM
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Byron Bay is hundreds of miles from Lithgow. Hassans Wall is natural cliffs at Lithgow. :)
JM
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JM,
Do you think he may have eaten contaminated food by accident then, if this were to have been him?
Annie
Added;
Then animals may the have devoured his body as it was a "Skeleton"?
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Whether that sighting was Donald or some other male who had fallen on hard times, and was tramping, it is certainly possible that they may have eaten contaminated foods.
I have living relatives who vividly recall the Great Depression, and their Dad/Uncle and their Mum/Aunty striving to keep the families together. I also still have several living relatives who were young adults in the 1930s. None of them has ever spoken any 'good' about those times, and I am a child of the 1940s.
Very sad.
ADD
Added;
Then animals may the have devoured his body as it was a "Skeleton"?
The Coroner has the DD as April 1935. The remains were not left out at Hassan's Wall in the exposed bush.
JM
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Byron Bay is hundreds of miles from Lithgow. Hassans Wall is natural cliffs at Lithgow. :)
JM
mmm...need geography refresher course ???
Sue
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Thinking I'm getting light-headed - and luckily ancestry has reported hitting a snag with the viewer so I can take a guilt-free break. :)
-
;D
NSW geography can be confuddling at times... there's many a place name that is repeated at various locations across the state, ;D ;D
don't ever ask me about Vic geography because I have vivid memories of being lost at the vehicular ferry terminal to go across to Tasmania... Lost I tell you, the rest of the family were there to walk onboard, and I was to drive the car on, and then meet back up. OH was responsible for keeping the oldies 'in line'.... so, I dropped them off, and had the 'easy' task .... get the car onboard .... and/BUT then ALL BY MYSELF I managed to get into 'wrong' queue and went around block and around and around and around. Over an hour before I was able to get back into boarding queue....
JM.
-
Here is a detailed cutting re the body at Hassan's Wall, Lithgow. This cutting appeared in the Lithgow local press.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/220690026 29 July 1935 Lithgow Mercury.
The attempts to determine the identity are detailed in that report. To me, these are typical of the efforts undertaken in NSW in that era.
JM
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Might not be on air for a couple of days - with this do we’ve got on - but just wanted to mention, for what it’s worth:
My grandfather, Peter Brown McGregor - Don’s brother - was in the electoral roll for Lithgow (Wallerawang) in 1933 and part 1934, then went to St Marys. He was a letter carrier (postie).
And: Donald was in reform school 4 Nov 1909 to 12 June 1911 (image on ancestry.com). On entry he was 5 ft one and three quarters. On release he was 5ft 2 and a quarter at age 16 and half years. Could fit with JM's newspaper cutting. (Thanks JM)
Thanks everyone again. You’re all Legends! You especially, Ros, even if you don’t drink beer.
Sorry, have to go.
Cheers, Peter
-
Well I have reached 7/6/1937 page 554 without any success. :(
What I was hoping to find was ... and there were a few entries like this ...
Unknown male body found at blah near whatsit with scribbled underneath
(believed to be XYZ)
or
Fred Smith with scribbled underneath
(also known as XYZ)
And I was hoping that XYZ would be Donald MacGregor and that ancestry had failed to index it :) But no luck.
I did find another 8 or 9 unknown males of age 35-55 who I may look at further but I think we all previously searched trove for inquests or bodies found and MacGregor so probably won't be able to get any further with these men. Or would you like me to list them? Tomorrow?
Ros
You're excused Peter - have fun :)
-
I suddenly have to dash off for a few days so I will list these now.
p415 30-12-36 Unknown man Manly poisoning age 36
p349 23-5-36 Unknown man 5 ft 6 1/2 medium build, brown hair, blue (!) eyes, Lysol poisoning,
age 35 or 55
p345 12-5-36 Unknown man found in Waters of Murray River near Albury drowning age about 56
p279 31-10-35 Unknown man railway line near Burwood age 45-50
p253 29-7-30 (Lithgow man)
p247 4-7-35 12-7-35 Unknown man at Campbell Hill near Maitland by a motor car unknown age
Adding : and a few curiosities like Hector MacGregor did he exist
-
12-5-'36 Albury inquest - http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article112707879
J.
-
Thanks again, Ros. Back on air, I'll get into a bit of the Inquest searching you were doing.
And thanks, Jamjar. So sad; too often we forget how lucky we are today compared with a lot of people in those days.
Peter
-
Disappointing response from AWM:
“Thank you for your request for information on the death of your father’s uncle.
“All the information that we have on individual soldiers is located in their personal service record. Any additional post-war information would be held by the relevant state registry of Births Deaths and Marriages.
“They should able to assist your family research.”
I’ve sent an email to NSW BDM. I wonder if I’ll get a similar lazy response.
Cheers, Peter
-
I am very disappointed to read that response. I have had much better responses from them, but several years ago now. It seems a part of the 'Australian Ethos' has gone missing. I do not expect you will receive a positive email from NSW BDM. Weasel words and gobbledygook seems to be their current offerings.
I will pull thinking cap down harder.
JM
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Peter,
It translates as: Bugger, I have no idea where to look, so will pass him on to someone else. ;D
Jamjar
-
;D ;D
Your right JJ. "Pass the buck"!!!
Annie
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That's a shame Peter.
I wonder if it's worth e-mailing NSW state records info@records.nsw.gov.au The staff there are always so helpful and any e-mails I have sent have received a very quick informative response.
Of course this may not be something which they can help with but maybe worth a try.
Ros
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Thanks JM, Jamjar, Annie and Ros.
Ros, thanks for the tip. Just sent them an email, too.
Cheers, Peter
-
I'm wondering if there are records of applications to have someone declared dead. Clutching at straws a bit here but I note that in reply #105 Peter says
The date recorded on his service file, “Died 18 April 1937” looks suspiciously like he was declared dead as of that date, it being almost exactly 7 years since he first deserted Effie.
This appears to be the current position but it seems to address administration of estates.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declared_death_in_absentia
To address the possibility that a missing person may in fact be deceased, the Probate and Administration Act (NSW) 1898 allows the Supreme Court of New South Wales to apply a presumption of death subject to certain evidence being provided. As a general rule, if a person has not been seen or heard from for a period of 7 years by people who would normally be in contact with the missing person, the Court may apply a presumption of death and grant the executor authority to administer the estate. Certain situations may give rise to a presumption of death due to the manner of disappearance, and if the circumstances warrant it, the Court may find it unnecessary to require the full 7 year period to pass.
Would there have been any estate in this case to require probate?
I'm not sure that the AWM holds any individual service records so I think their reply is probably 'true'.
Judith
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Yes Judith :) .
I suggested the AWM as CW Bean was offered as a possible for 'Historian' and the actual AIF file shows that the 'Historian' was the person giving the DD to the clerk who added the info to page 41 of 41 of the AIF file. My experiences with the AWM are similar to the experiences Ros mentions with the NSW State Records. I had always found that the AWM staff were prepared to follow up particularly when it came to WWI service records. I will assume that the current poor response is simply because of the passage of time .... ie the person who would have 'known' the correct answer has retired or no longer is a volunteer there.
Yes too Judith re presumed deaths in NSW, definitely any declaration re any presumed NSW death would have been via NSW Supreme Court. I have searched TROVE for such for Donald and I have had no success.
He is hiding.
Peter,
did you ask the direct question "Can you please advise me as to who is the 'Historian' as mentioned at page 41 of 41 of the AIF service file at the following live link ..............., " That directness can sometimes be the 'carrot' to entice the researcher into deep and meaningful researching.
Legal declarations for Death ..... (Order of Presumed Death)
Info from a rellie (retired NSW BDM senior officer not sure if it is Order of Death or Order of Presumed Death)
If the death was presumed to have occurred in NSW, what should have been done would be court action taken in the NSW Supreme Court by his wife/widow/divorced wife with outstanding child maintenance orders/etc or others having a claim on his "deceased" estate, Solicitor/Barrister representing the Parties seeking the declaration.,,.
The SMH newspaper would have displayed the Law Lists for any such action. So check TROVE
If such action was successful, then there should be a direction from the Supreme Court to the Registrar General, causing a NSW dc to be raised.
I cannot see any likely NSW BDM dc indexed for 1937/38 .....
JM
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Thanks Judith. I guess JM has answered your suggestion - although I still wonder about that aspect but don’t know where else to look.
Thanks JM. I think maybe I let them off the hook a bit by trying to be too polite. This is what I wrote:
“Intriguing Note on Relative’s Service Record: Donald M[a]cGregor No. 2065 AIF 1915-1919 Missing from 1930 onwards Note on Service File Died April 1937
“Hello. I hope I’m sending this enquiry to the correct place.
“I’m trying to find out how my father’s uncle died. He was discharged medically unfit in 1919. In 1930 he was arrested for wife desertion and divorce proceedings were going on in 1933 but he was still missing at that time. The only other record of him is a handwritten note on his service record: “Died 18 Apr 1937 Historian 4/5/38” with an initial that looks like it ends in a B (so probably Charles Bean). And his wife remarried the same year (1937).
“I can’t find any other record of his death anywhere. There is a family story handed down that he committed suicide while missing but this may be supposition.
“My question is, would the note on his file indicate an actual death or could it mean that he was declared legally dead so that his wife could remarry?
“Hoping you can help or perhaps point me in the right direction.”
But I don't think they tried too hard.
Peter
-
http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=4028768
CEW Bean's signature on several different pages of his own AIF records.
JM
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It gets worse. Here is a response I just received from NSW BDM:
“Thanks for your enquiry.
“Have you tried looking on our birth and death index's on our website?
“You can look through them and if you find a relevant record, you can purchase it there and then.
“Maybe you should start there.”
And my response to their response:
“Thanks for your response.
“Adam, I’m being assisted by a team of experienced researchers through an online genealogical website.
“I wrote to the Australian War Memorial Research Centre and then you because we have been unable to find any clues in the usual places. We have exhausted the resources in those usual places: NSW BDM indexes, Trove, Ancestry.com (including NSW coroners inquest registers for the period) and all the rest. The full file of his divorce proceedings has been photographed and examined for any clues. Nothing we have found, apart from the army service record, gives any indication of what happened to him after 1930.
“But there must have been some reason for the army historian to note Donald’s file that he died on a certain date.
“Perhaps you have a colleague with experience in a situation like this who could offer some help.
“Cheers, Peter”
Cheers, Peter
-
I did say weasel words and gobbledygook.
I am so very sorry, not just for Peter, but for my own living ancestors (edit to add 'and who frequently read threads that I contribute to, and then phone me and comment') who spent careers in the NSW Registrar General's Office (Land and BDM) and in the Mitchell Library and State Library (when NSW Archives Office was part of their functioning) and then as Archivists at NSWAO at Kingswood, and seconded to NLA Canberra, and family members, deceased but well remembered who sought to go 'to the front' but were in Reserve occupations, or were otherwise unable .... medically unfit .... so quit NSW BDM to go to AIF Base Records and then in their old age were always at the ready to share their acquired knowledge of protocols/practices/ back in the pre-puter era.
I am very disappointed to read that response. I have had much better responses from them, but several years ago now. It seems a part of the 'Australian Ethos' has gone missing. I do not expect you will receive a positive email from NSW BDM. Weasel words and gobbledygook seems to be their current offerings.
I will pull thinking cap down harder.
JM
Collective thinking cap is being brain-stormed by my living older relatives. They promise TO TRY to overcome the Catch - 22. I will report back after they have indulged in their own ways in 'happy hour' .... STD calls on 'proper phones' .... there will be some rude words, which means I am not allowed to be privy, despite being (in my view) 'old enough' (born 194X) and a 'married woman' (since the 1970s !)
-
Thanks JM. Appreciate your help and advice very much.
Peter
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Another response from NSW BDM:
“Does he have a middle name?”
(No header/greeting/or signing off this time - you can almost see the gritted teeth. Perhaps like many work places today they don’t have the staff/time to be able to engage in anything deep and meaningful. Retirement is great!)
My reply:
“His birth was registered as simply Donald McGregor (1894) in Hurstville. He later spelt his name MacGregor. (I think that when he went to school the spelling was 'corrected' with the addition of the 'a'). In all records we have found (birth, reform school, marriage - in Scotland during the war - army record, Police Gazette, divorce papers) there is no mention of a middle name.
“In some online trees a Donald 'Alexander' MacGregor (in others even an 'Alexander Donald' MacGregor) is put in his place but this is incorrect. Both of these 'wrong' ones have WWI service records but they are completely unrelated to 'our' Donald. His grandfather's name was Alexander and this may be the reason some immature research picked up an entirely different Donald. There appears to no evidence that Donald himself ever used that name. In case you need them, his parents' names are given in the heading of my first email.
“So, no, as far as we can see, he neither had nor used any middle name.
“Thank you for having another look at this.
“Cheers, Peter.”
Cheers, Peter
-
Hi Peter.
My comment here is of no assistance to you, but...
I do wonder if either the AWM or NSW bmd would be interested to note that this thread was first posted on 22nd September and it is now 7th October and about 2,350 people have read it.
That could possibly be seen as a wide exposure to unfavourable publicity in regard to their services ::)
Sue
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outcome from the Happy hour discussions :)
1. unlikely that anyone at the NSW BDM call centre (who also handle initial email enquiries) will have any knowledge about how the system worked well back in the 1990s, much less back in the era before the internet. So request they pass your enquiry to Senior Executive Team.
2. try contacting NAA and ask them for advice as to which experienced WWI expert to contact re who would have had the authority in 1938 to make such an entry on the file, and also, (more importantly) what supporting documentation would have been required (there's none on the file) and advise them of the weasel word emails from both NSW BDM and the AWM (quote the file and the page no. 41 of 41 with the entry on it, and if poss attach a live link for them too ... spoon feed, give them no option to fail to give quality response)
3. Contact the AWM director by email and ask the same type of questions.
4. You need to be specific and don't give them any leeway or opt out options.
And, I have just read Sue's post YES, unfavourable publicity.... :-X
JM
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Thanks again, Sue and JM,
I’ve written to NSW BDM again, the AWM Director, and to NAA, trying to strike a good balance of polite assertiveness - I think I’m getting out of my depth!
NAA automated a response: “We expect to respond by: 18/11/2016 04:00 PM”
The other two would be long gone to the pub.
JM, whether we get a good result or not, my debt to you (and your Happy Hour crew) is growing - hope they’re not big drinkers!
I might be missing in action for a day or so. Daughter-in-law’s 30th and other son and daughter-in-law’s wedding anniversary tomorrow in Armidale.
See you next week to report of any other responses. Have a good weekend.
Cheers, Peter
-
Received another reply from NSW BDM. I had to look twice to make sure it was sent today. Reading between the lines I would guess the “Client Service Consultant” consulted his immediate superior and was told to stonewall.
“Thank you for your email enquiry.
“The Registry offers a service where up to 10 registration numbers can be checked for a fee of $44. If you wish to check more than 10 records, a further $40 fee will apply.
“The records must be family history records and fall within the unrestricted period.
“The unrestricted period for records is:
“Births from 1788 – 1913
“Deaths from 1788 – 1983
“Marriages from 1788- 1963
“Any events that occur after these dates need to be accompanied with ID from the applicant, ID from the subject on the certificate and a written letter of permission from the next of kin.
“The search can only be conducted for one name.
“Please include a letter with your application listing all records and registration numbers you would like checked. Please also provide any additional information that can assist us in identifying the correct record, for example parent’s surnames, district information etc.”
Reminds me of an encounter at a MacDonalds years ago. I asked for 12 chicken nuggets for the kids. I was told I could only have 6 or 9. I had to ask for 2 six-packs before the lights came on. In other words, if it doesn’t fit the template, it doesn’t go through.
Robots.
There are still my emails to NAA and AWM (Director’s Office) out there, with replies not guaranteed for a few weeks.
Cheers, Peter
-
MacDonalds years ago. I asked for 12 chicken nuggets for the kids. I was told I could only have 6 or 9. I had to ask for 2 six-packs before the lights came on. In other words, if it doesn’t fit the template, it doesn’t go through.
Cheers, Peter
Similar to a return flight to Ireland a few yrs ago.
They had a "Template" Cage/Contraption to put your case into?
If the case was bigger than the "Template" it didn't go through without an extra charge, nothing to do with weight but volume?
Annie
-
....
“The records must be family history records and fall within the unrestricted period.
“The unrestricted period for records is:
“Births from 1788 – 1913
“Deaths from 1788 – 1983
“Marriages from 1788- 1963
“Any events that occur after these dates need to be accompanied with ID from the applicant, ID from the subject on the certificate and a written letter of permission from the next of kin.
.......
Any events AFTER these dates ID from applicant, ID from subject and written letter of permission from next of kin..... dERRRRRRRRRR.....
Births restricted for first 100 years, deaths 30 years, and marriages 30 years. So as today's date is 11 Oct 2016, I can see ONLINE and if I wanted to I could purchase WITHOUT such ID for births to 10 October 1916, and deaths to 10 October 1986 and marriages to 10 October 1966.......
I can just imagine trying to get ID from subject when subject is a deceased person ..... THEY HAVE LOST THE PLOT. They don't even understand what YEAR it is.
I am so sorry Peter. I need a cuppa tea BEFORE my phone starts.
PS As an aside, I am thinking of asking for a gross of anything next time I am at the deli. I think that may really confuddle the staff there. They know what I think of their eggs sold by the ten when I ask for a dozen eggs..... and they now know that 20 is a score. But I haven't ever mentioned a Gross before. :)
JM
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JM,
It looks to me like a "Standard" reply with no thought process on the actual enquiry?
It's obvious these things can be searched by the OP but the enquiry is that there is nothing concrete & can they help, basically.
They don't care as it's all about the incoming "£'s".
Annie
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Yes, I agree. The funding issue drives much of the NSW Administrative functions.
JM
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Do we want fancy certs? or do we want quality information....
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/news/2016/australian-classics.aspx
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/apply-for-certificates/nrl-commemorative-birth-certificates.aspx#NRLCommemorativecertificaterange
NOTE
Commemorative birth certificates do not contain security features and organisations may not accept them as a proof of identity document. Your Standard Birth certificate (included in each package) can be used for official purposes.
JM
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“Gross.” Good one, JM. They’ll probably open a few cartons looking for ugly eggs.
Cheers, Peter
-
Hmm, Well,
I could jazz up my own or anyone else's B/M/D cert. by using Publisher & I'm sure I could do it a lot cheaper ???
Annie
-
Received a reply from the AWM today:
“Dear Mr McGregor,
“Thank you for your email of 7 October 2016 regarding researching Donald MacGregor.
“The personnel records were managed by the Base Records Office in Melbourne. This office was responsible for handling all queries relating to members of the Australian Imperial Force. These queries could relate to such things as casualties, wills, medals, pensions, mail and personal effects during the war and for some time afterwards. The note on the final page regarding Donald MacGregor’s date of death could be due to an enquiry received by the Base Records Office. The files were subject to extensive culling in the 1950s by the Department of the Army. The intention of this cull was to remove from them any material that did not provide an essential record of service. It could be that the correspondence requesting the information from the Base Records Office and its correspondence with the historian who supplied the information were culled in this process.
“The Series Note for the National Archives of Australia’s archival series B2455, First World War Service Records (http://www.aa.gov.au/cgi-bin/Search?Number=B2455) provides information about the creation and keeping of these records.
“The Memorial holds biographical and research files created for the First World War Official History. There is no file in the collection for D MacGregor. It is possible the historian referenced in the notation is Eric Wren, who wrote the 3 Battalion unit history, Randwick to Hargicourt: history of the 3rd battalion, A.I.F., published in 1935. It is likely the notation was made by a Base Records Office staff member.
“In addition to the Service Records, the National Archives will sometimes hold Veteran case files if the service person received a pension or sought medical treatment for war caused conditions. More information about Veteran case files can be found in the National Archives fact sheet http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/fact-sheets/fs54.aspx. If there is a case file for Donald MacGregor it may provide information regarding his death.
“Donald MacGregor’s death should have been registered with the relevant state authority. These records are held by Births, Deaths and Marriages. Another option would be searching newspapers for death or funeral notices. The digitised newspapers on Trove can be a useful source for this research, http://trove.nla.gov.au/.
“Best wishes with your research.
“Yours sincerely,
“Dr Brendan Nelson
Director'
I wrote to the NAA at the same time as I wrote to AWM but, armed with Dr Nelson’s advice, I’ve written again:
“I have received an email from the Director of the Australian War Memorial, Dr Brendan Nelson, in answer to my query to him regarding the death of my father’s uncle, Donald McGregor.
“I have examined a digital copy of his service record on which there is a handwritten note on the final page that he died on 18 April 1937. The Director has explained that this was probably added by Base Records staff. However the origin of the advice of his death remains a mystery. There is no record in BDM records, nor in newspaper archives. The file of his divorce case has also been examined but provides no explanation as to his death. Additionally, digital records of Coroners Inquests regarding unknown persons have been searched.
“The Director has advised that:
‘In addition to the Service Records, the National Archives will sometimes hold Veteran case files if the service person received a pension or sought medical treatment for war caused conditions.’
“Donald was discharged medically unfit so there may be a Veteran case file.
“I have done a Record Search and the only thing that comes up is his service file (41 pages) which I have already examined.
“Would you please advise me whether the result of the search means that there is no other record, or that there may be a Veterans case file, and what I need to do to find out if it contains anything that may provide a clue as to what happened to him.
“Thank you,
“Peter McGregor”
Let you know if anything else comes back. (It may be that, as Dr Nelson alludes to, the records we need may have been destroyed.)
Cheers,
Peter
-
It is good to know that Dr Nelson has replied, and has given quality background information.
Fingers crossed that the NAA has the staff with the knowledge to provide such a reply, even if the knowledge outcome is similar.
JM
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http://ozebook.com/ebook/?p=26206
The book by Eric Wren is available
ADD
http://booksonwaraustralia.blogspot.com.au/2013/03/randwick-to-hargicourt-military-history.html
JM
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While the provision of information is still lacking at least the reply is of some satisfaction and it would appear that some-one has looked at Donald's file (or lack of file!) individually at the AWM.
Do you think Brendan Nelson did the research personally?? :P ::)
Thanks for letting us know - it all adds to our knowledge of record-keeping.
Judith
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Hi Judith
"Do you think Brendan Nelson did the research personally??"
No real indication. But probably more likely that someone tried to do a good job for the boss and the boss would have made sure that they did, to protect his own reputation since it was done under his name. I think that's the way it usually works!
Cheers,
Peter
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"Do you think Brendan Nelson did the research personally??
Sorry - that flippant comment of mine was made with tongue firmly in cheek. ::)
Great to get such a personal response, though.
Judith
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May I note that this thread has now been read 2941 times....
My older generation have phoned in. Pleased with the reply from the Director, but sorry that there's still no firm answer as to whose initials are those on page 41.
One rellie says .... Dr N is likely to have re-checked every aspect before allowing the email to go out. He is meticulous.
JM
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Hi Peter
Just to let you know I did a search sometime ago on Trove with Inverell and body as terms.
Lots of deaths in the river and on the railway -- one an ex-soldier -- but all named. Also public bodies like Red Cross etc.
Regards
phenolphthalein
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Thanks very much, Phenolphthalein
Two things keep coming back to me:
Firstly, from the book “From Glenquaich to New South Wales” by Julia Kable (my second cousin):
“Coral relates — ‘Aunty Nell said he died by suicide in the early 1930s at somewhere in the Riverina; she was notified, as the only identity he had was his army pay book, in which she had been entered as his next of kin.’ (Coral [Kable] was Julia’s aunt; Nell was Donald’s sister.)
And, secondly, from Donald’s army service record:
“ ‘Died 18 April 1937’ Historian 4/5/38 ”
If only we could reconcile the two things.
While family recollections suffer from imperfect understandings and imperfect memories, there must have been something in the story - concrete details like the mention of the pay book don’t usually come from nowhere (unless someone surmised it and it later became “fact”).
And the details in the service record must have come from somewhere. Perhaps, as Dr Nelson indicated in his recent email from AWM, that “somewhere” might be records now long culled.
Was there a decomposed body with his army pay book on or near it that prompted the army to record his death, but was not accepted as sufficient evidence for the coroner or the BDM to say that it was other than an “unknown” body? But you would think there would be a record and/or a newspaper report somewhere of such an occurrence.
I think the one hope left is that in addition to the service record there is still an army medical record held by the NAA - who have indicated they would reply sometime in November.
Failing that, after probably hundreds of hours now collectively spent by the wonderful people (and their friends and rellies) through this great site, we may have to conclude that Donald managed a remarkably well-executed “Harold Holt”.
I’ll post the details from NAA’s reply as soon as it comes in.
Cheers and thanks again,
Peter
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Well, Holbrook did not get the submarine until the 1990s, so I don't think Donald made his escape from the Riverina via a sub :) but Cronulla did turn on the verandah lights earlier this year !
(Holbrook aka Germanton is in the Riverina area of NSW, Harold Holt was a PM whose disappearance has been attributed to being swallowed by a submarine off the Victorian coast, and Jack Gibson is reputed to have said 'Waiting for Cronulla to win a premiership is like leaving the porch lamp on for Harold Holt. '
I have been searching for any possible connection with Herbert Cornelius UHR, probably born in 1903 who was in a grocery business in West Wyalong NSW with a Donald McGregor. Their business was dissolved in April 1934, and Herbert took on all their debts and seems to have continued with the business. http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/188521596 W Wyalong Advocate 6 April 1934. Wondering what happened to Herbert's former business partner.... remembering that back in the Ryde district there was a Don MacGREGOR who may I speculate perhaps he was a grocer ? .....
Sands Sydney Directory 1930
MacGREGOR Don., Blaxland Rd, Ryde.
ADD
Nope, he was a carpenter as per NSW 1930 Electoral Roll. ::)
JM
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G’day JM,
(Donald was way ahead of his time in the Harold Holt business.)
JM, this keeps getting curiouser and curiouser. In Julia Kable’s book, mentioned in my last post, she describes Donald as a building contractor in the Ryde-Paramatta area and mentions the same Sands entry you do. His army record calls him a bridge carpenter.
But, when I just now went to check the Sands entry, in the image of the page he is indeed described as a Grocer (!?) of Beattie Ave (and Blaxland St) - halfway down 2nd column of page 837.
(I think I need a beer and a lie down.)
And there is precedent. This, from Julia’s book, is about Donald’s father:
“He was granted early retirement from the Railways in 1914 (he would then have been about 62 years of age.) Apparently, his backyard at Dumbleton was so successful that he was able to commence a fruit and vegetable run, made possible by the acquisition of a horse and cart.”
You could have just opened up a chink in the wall.
I really, really appreciate your continued interest in this.
Thanks,
Peter
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My sighting is from page 1683 of Sands 1930 (part 15 from the City of Sydney site ie the Alphabetical section rather than the Suburb section).
:)
Have you looked for Effie in Sands as Mrs E McGregor or Mrs E MacGregor etc :)
JM
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I didn’t even know there were two different Sands. I think the street one came up for me first (through ancestry) because in it he’s Donald and in the alphabetical one he’s Don.
Can’t see Effie anywhere in them, although she’s in plenty of electoral rolls. Changed address by 1936 - same suburb.
But that’s got to be him as the Ryde grocer. Same suburb they lived in. No other Donalds close by.
Perhaps he couldn’t get enough work building, helped his father with the market garden and decided to open a shop. It probably failed, along with most things he touched and it all got too much for him.
And maybe - if it’s him - he had another unsuccessful go in West Wyalong?
A lot of coincidences: the times match. Donald disappears from Ryde, appears in West Wyalong. He has some background in groceries. Riverina. Did he try other work around that area then give up altogether?
Have to have another look at those unknown deaths and inquests. Tomorrow - normal life intervenes.
Thanks again, JM.
Added: In the electoral rolls for West Wyalong in 1930 and 1932 there is one Donald McGregor, a labourer. From 1932 until 1937 there are two Donald McGregors: one labourer, one carpenter. That carpenter’s got to be him.
Peter
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Sands Directory 1930 perhaps 2000 pages. :) I am not sure if Ancestry has uploaded all the pages, but the City of Sydney uploaded the Sands directories 1858-1933 to their own website, and it has an excellent search engine and is free to search :) and the pdfs are downloadable too. :)
City of Sydney http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/sands-directory
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369703.msg5267800#msg5267800
JM
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The West Wyalong library holds the burial records for the cemetery. You may like to give them a call and ask for them to look for his name or an unnamed burial at that time.
Give them the short version of the story, as they very likely couldn't cope with the full version.
Jamjar
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Trove
West Wyalong Advocate including a cyclist who was alive in October 1938.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/188527936 10 March 1936 D McGregor and Digger
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/188528862 21 April 1936 A debate, "Disarmament is conducive to Peace" Don McGregor led the opposition. :) it was his first debate, he was complemented :)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/188530967 24 July 1936 Don McGregor "Flying Scotchman"
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/185781087 7 October 1938 Don McGregor donates a Cup.
JM
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Been out half the day, so late in sending these thank yous.
Thanks, Jamjar,
I’ve sent an email to West Wyalong library care of the council.
Thanks, JM,
I’m trying to sort out the different Don MacGregors in West Wyalong. There were a carpenter, a grocer, a labourer, a debator, a cyclist and a donor. Additionally, there was a young Don (father not called Don) who came from Lismore in about 1933, went to war and lost his life in 1944 aged 21. And there was a death of a Don in 1951 aged 80, no parents’ names.
The young fellow was probably the debater. The young fellow was probably also the cyclist (the race winner, Les Sheedy, is not in the electoral roll, while a married couple of Sheedys were, so Les and Don were probably boys). The shooter in the Diggers Cup sounds like ‘our’ Don, the carpenter and grocer (unless he was the labourer). The donor at the cycle club is more difficult. The boy cyclist would have been about 15, and the donor was not named as a race participant - so probably not the young bloke. Perhaps the donor was the labourer (thereby creating a coincidence of two unrelated Dons being interested in cycling - not that far out). The 1951 dead Don might have been the labourer.
Donald’s partner in the grocery shop - Herbert Cornelius Uhr - came from Qld, spent only a few years in West Wyalong, married into Tumbarumba, went to war and returned to Tumbarumba. Always described himself as a farmer or labourer. No sign of taking Don with him to Tumbarumba.
So nothing proves or disproves that it was ‘our’ Don in West Wyalong. So he probably, possibly, I dunno, couldabeen - and I think he was.
And then Trove was down for the count.
Peter
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Am following this story with bated breath
I like endings with a twist but this story may never end unless the body is disinterred + given DNA test !
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Further for your files
The Donald McGREGOR who died in 1951 (who has been mentioned above) is the only one of the name recorded on my database as being buried in the Riverina district.
Donald McGREGOR, bur. 13/7/1951. At west Wyalong.
Section- Pres. Row H. Lot 09. Unmarked Grave.
The "Riverina District" is a loose kind of term and so this resource may not be entirely comprehensive.
He is clearly the only one of the name at West Wyalong.
ADDING
Hang on, just found another one ::)
Bit odd ::)
Don McGREGOR. Died before 3rd November 1967
EXR (Ex Riverina Resident)
Riverina NSW
No further particulars.
Sue
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brigidmac, I think you might be right!
Sue, thank you.
Peter
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Received a reply from State Records Authority, NSW. Nothing further comes out of it but I’ll post the response in full because it shows that they at least made an effort to address the question.
Thank you for your enquiry relating to death records.
Kindly note that we do not offer a research service on behalf of enquirers. However, in this case I have checked our online database and online indexes, according to the details you have provided, with no success.
I have also checked the NSW Registry of Births, Deaths & Marriages website using variations of spelling (e.g. Don/Donald, McGregor/McGreggor/MacGreggor), with no success. I also tried the Victorian and Queensland equivalents, again with no success. Additionally I unsuccessfully searched the Ryerson Index, however it may be worth you checking each of these resources as there may be information and variations of spelling which I did not include in my searches.
Until you receive a response from the NSW Registry of Births, Deaths & Marriages, it is difficult to know where else to look.
You may wish to search the fee-based site Ancestry.com.au, for which free access is provided in many libraries as well as our reading room.
Read more about family history research.
Regards,
Rhett Lindsay | Archivist, Public Access
I sent him a nice reply.
Still waiting on a reply from NAA, which will be about the last before putting this one to bed, I think.
Cheers,
Peter
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Thanks for the update, Peter.
A bit disappointing, but another avenue of research followed as far as possible.
Sue
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Yes, I echo Sue's words.
JM
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This topic is not quite dead yet! NAA were supposed to respond by 18 November. I gave them until today and followed it up. This is their response:
Thank you for your enquiry regarding records for your father's uncle, Donald MacGregor (Service Number 2065), and please accept my apologies on behalf of the National Archives for the delay in responding to your enquiry. The Archives has been working through a backlog of cases in recent months and this has led to longer than usual response times.
This enquiry has allocated to the Sydney Office of the National Archives for a search of veteran's personal case files. These personal case files have been identified as the records most likely to shed light on the question of Mr MacGregor's post-war life.
We have carried out a search of the collection and located two files for Mr Macgregor in record series C137. These records had not been described and were therefore not previously searchable on RecordSearch.The file numbers for these records are as follows;
- R90891
- C90891
All records held by the National Archives must be examined for material of continuing sensitivity before they are made available for public access. As these records are ‘not yet examined’ they must be access examined before they can be made available.
I will be submitting access applications for these items on your behalf. Under the Archives Act 1983 we are obliged to respond to applications for access within 90 days. You will be advised when the files have been screened for public access and provided with copying quotations at that time.
It is also possible that the Archives holds pay records for Mr Macgregor in record series, ST1910/4. Please notify the Archives if you would like us to carry out a search of this series on your behalf.
Let you know what happens.
Cheers,
Peter
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As you say - not quite finished yet! ::)
Judith
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Yes, not yet finished ! 2017 is the year of getting to the bottom of the mystery.
Fingers Crossed.
JM
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Just to bring people up to date with this topic.
I received a reply from NAA a couple of months ago but didn’t act on it because, misreading it, I thought there was another response from them still to come - and then my hard drive died…
NAA advised that there Sydney facility holds two paper records on Donald MacGregor, a repatriation file and a pay card, and I was invited to purchase digital copies - which would cost one hundred odd dollars. I chickened out of that, reasoning that unless the records answered the riddle I might be divorced - and down two cartons of beer - for no result.
I find the wording of the NAA’s instructions ambiguous. Do you still have to pay to view documents if you actually visit the site? Perhaps an experienced Rootschatter living in Sydney may be familiar with the procedures. And - pushing my luck a bit further, he thinks - if it is free, would there be a Rootschatter, or a friend or relative of a Rootschatter, who occasionally visits the NAA in Sydney for research, who would be willing to view/copy those records?
Anyway, these are the details:
"National Archives of Australia
National Reference Service
Reference: NAA1000177222
"Dear Mr McGregor,
I am writing to advise you that we have located a pay card for Donald MacGregor in record series, ST1910/4. This item has been access examined and is available for you to purchase a digital copy.
Title Pay history card Donald MacGregor
Contents date range 1914 - 1918
Series number ST1910/4
Click to see which government agency or person created this item.
Control symbol 2065
Citation NAA: ST1910/4, 2065
Item barcode 13802251
Location Sydney
Access status Open
Date of decision 22 Dec 2016
"The previously mentioned repatriation files in record series C137 - details below, have also been access examined and are available for purchasing digital copies.
Title McGregor, Donald [A260]
Contents date range 1919 - 1924
Series number C137
Click to see which government agency or person created this item.
Control symbol C90891
Citation NAA: C137, C90891
Item barcode 13801936
Location Sydney
Access status Open
Date of decision 22 Dec 2016
Title MacGregor, Donald [A260
Contents date range 1920 - 1920
Series number C137
Click to see which government agency or person created this item.
Control symbol R90891
Citation NAA: C137, R90891
Item barcode 13801935
Location Sydney
Access status Open
Date of decision 22 Dec 2016
"If you wish to purchase digital copies of these items, please see How to purchase copies.
"You may choose instead to view the items in the Chester Hill Reading Room. If so, please contact the National Reference Service beforehand and quote the item details on this email so that the necessary preparations can be made. Advance notice of at least five days is preferred."
Whether or not anyone can help any further I’d like to take this opportunity to thank everyone who took part - by help, advice or encouragement - in this quite extended conundrum. I’ve learnt a lot from the experience and learnt what wonderful people there are out there. In order of their first appearance: Jamjar, rosball, majm, Rosinish, cando, judb, Rena, sparret, Ruskie, Pheno, phenolphthalein and brigidmac; with special mention to rosball for copying the divorce papers and wading through all those coroners reports - thanks, Ros - and to majm for much advice from you and from those friends and rellies, and for starting a breakthrough by finding Donald in West Wyalong - thanks, JM.
Cheers, Peter
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Hi Peter,
I've just been checking out where Chester Hill is and it's not so far way. I should be able to get there in the next couple of weeks.
Ros
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My debt to you keeps growing, Ros. If there’s anything I can do for you in my part of the world, please let me know. Thank you very, very much. As I mentioned in my previous post, I don’t know if there’s a charge involved for viewing the documents; I hope you find there’s not before you go. Again, whatever happens, thank you for your kind offer.
Cheers, Peter
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Ros,
That's really kind of you & would be terrific if you can find any confirmation on ANYTHING as this seems a very frustrating journey for Peter, going round in circles from pillar to post with no solid info. as yet.
Good luck with the search as it would be nice to hear of a positive outcome one way or another.
Annie
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Ros has been a wonderful help to many people over the years with photographing probate packages and divorce files as well as the sourcing and posting of original newspaper family notices.
Many have her kindness to thank for the destruction of brick walls in their family history searches.
;D
Sue
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It's a pleasure to help :)
Thanks Sue and Annie for your kind words. :D Yes it would be wonderful if there is a positive outcome to the search ... will do my best.
Ros
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Alas, after nearly 200 posts and a number of personal messages it is time to call it quits, I think.
The redoubtable Ros (“rosball”) has visited the National Reference Service’s Chester Hill Reading Room and pm’d me a link to 47 photographs she took of Donald’s army medical file.
Unfortunately there is no reference to his death. The file, however, does reveal a little more sadness about Don.
It seems that whatever physical or psychological damage he sustained in the war, it remained with him. He tried life in Scotland at first, working for a farm contractor as a “body-builder”. (I guess that would have been building tractor/plough/wagon bodies - there were no “personal trainers” in those days!) But Don was unable to hold on to a job. Every few weeks he would have vomiting episodes, making him unfit for work for 2-3 days at a time. These episodes continued after he returned to Australia in 1920.
The help from the army was probably less than ideal. When he was assessed for ongoing support it was considered that his earning capacity was reduced by just one sixth for a period of only six months. So when that six months was up his small pension was reduced. (Before the war he worked as a carpenter for New South Wales Railways for 3 pounds 12 shillings a week.) His war Pension of 10 shillings a fortnight was reduced to 6 shillings and Effie’s was reduced from 5 to 3 shillings. Then in early 1921 his pension was cancelled altogether. Although he still claimed to be suffering attacks he was assessed as not being pathologically affected but perhaps it was “pure neurosis” and his ability to work was now unaffected.
And there the then-contemporary part of the file ends.
There is one much later entry, a newspaper clipping from July 1934, noting Effie’s being granted a decree nisi.
There is probably more truth in the family story than I initially gave it credit for. Don did last appear in the Riverina area. His pension had been cancelled but perhaps he was still carrying an army pay book for identification purposes. Perhaps the rest of the story is true as well - that he committed suicide and the only means of identification was that army record found (on a body? in clothes?).
There would have been something in an army file covering the events but, as Dr Brendan Nelson of the Australian War Memorial says in his email, many paper records were long ago destroyed. It is surprising that no newspaper report has been located, but if no body was found there may not have been much of a story.
Thank you once again to everyone who contributed or simply took an interest in this story. I’m going to again list all those who posted: Jamjar, rosball, majm, Rosinish, cando, judb, Rena, sparret, Ruskie, Pheno, phenolphthalein and brigidmac.
And again, special thanks to JM (“MAJM”) for her expertise and advice and who made a partial breakthrough with her discovery of Donald in West Wyalong.
And finally to Ros who really went above and beyond with her scrutinising of Ancestry’s entire database of coroner’s reports of unknown deaths in New South Wales and her very special visits to photograph Donald’s divorce file and army medical file.
Thank you.
Don, R.I.P.
Cheers, everyone. Have a good Easter.
Peter
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Yes RIP Donald - such a brave and tragic life.
Happy Easter Peter and everyone - wish we could have found something ... but you never know ... something may still pop up.
Ros
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Yes, sadly so many brave AIF chaps returned home and were not cared for or about. Worse still, I am not sure that today's system takes good care of all our current ADF lads and lasses.
Don's name and this RChat thread thingy is one of quite a number of threads on my "not yet solved" list. So whenever I am looking up for other RChatters, I err .... tend to look for those elusive ones too.
Dark Chocolate Gingers are excellent substitutes for Sunday's Easter Egg Hunt. Chocolates on Easter Sunday have no calories.
JM
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Well, Peter, you have left no avenue unexplored at this stage.
A very sad conclusion, but a thorough hunt.
Sue
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And Don has not been forgotten. As you have said, RIP. Judith
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Sorry Peter you didn't get the info. you'd hoped for with the remarkable help of others.
It does leave a lump in the throat....a very sad story indeed!
Annie
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You seem like a lovely man Peter. I'm sure everyone has felt it is worth going the extra mile to help you. It is a shame you have not found the answers you were hoping to find, but at least you have the satisfaction of knowing everything has been done that can possibly be done. :(
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You really are too kind, Ruskie. Thanks.
And, hey, that's 200!
Cheers, Peter.
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YES, DONALD REALLY WAS DEAD
Then
In 2016 I asked Rootschatters to help me find what happened to my father’s uncle, Donald McGregor. The only clues I had were the words “Died 18 April 1937” written on Donald’s file by the army historian, articles in the Police Gazette that he’d been tried and convicted in Inverell, NSW of wife desertion then released by Wauchope police, and family lore that he committed suicide somewhere in the Riverina.
Rootschat members made 200 posts before the story was paused. We found that Donald was in West Wyalong (in the Riverina!) briefly in a grocery business as well as being a carpenter, both roles echoing those he had in Sydney before leaving his wife.
But we could find no source for the note on his army papers.
Now
On 8 July 2025 I received a message from a fellow Ancestry member who is doing a family tree for a granddaughter of a Roy Dundas, whose death was reported to the army in June 1937. They hit a snag: Roy Dundas was alive in 1938, living with his young family in rural Victoria.
The man who died was Donald McGregor!
[Please refer to the image below from the early part of the Army's investigation]
(http://Donald McGregor Army Investigation Page(McG).jpg)
Roy and Donald probably met in France in 1917.
A copy of the memos from the army investigation was to be placed on Donald’s file. It appears they weren’t.
That omission contributed to a family mystery lasting 95 years: from 1930 till now.
This is what happened:
After his release by Wauchope police in 1930, Donald took the name of a man he’d met in the war, began (or resumed) a relationship with a part aboriginal woman named Beatrice Bugg, and fled west.
Beatrice’s descendants believe that “Roy Dundas” fathered 4 of Beatrice’s children:
Cecil Dundas Abt 1930–-21 Apr 1993 (No. 13429/1993, NSW, Mother Beatrice). Cecil is a doubtful son of Donald McGregor because: Donald only left his wife in 1930, the name Cecil appears nowhere in Donald’s family tree and Cecil’s death registration notes that the father is “unknown”.
Donald Dundas 29 Jan 1933 (Bingara, NSW)—22 Apr 1988 (No. 11827/1988, Dubbo, NSW, Father Roy, Mother Beatrice). Donald is a probable. A McGregor using an alias would quite likely use his own real first name for his first born son.
June Dundas 11 October 1935 (Peak Hill, NSW)—?. June is a possible. It’s a stretch, but “June” could refer to Donald’s father, John, with whom he’d been in business before the desertion.
Ken Dundas 23 Jul 1936 (NSW)—25 January 2019 (NSW, Buried Coonabarabran, NSW). Ken Dundas did not marry. Ken is another possible.
The Dundas researcher wants a member of her client’s family to do a DNA test. So far, there’s some resistance.
I’d speculated that Donald’s war experiences left him infertile. (He had no children with his wife.) But if he later had children with Beatrice, he clearly was not infertile.
Before marrying Donald in 1917, Effie Turnbull had married a James Munro, in 1912. They had one son, in 1912. But this baby lived for only 7 days. They had no other children before James died in the war. After Donald, Effie married a third time, again with no offspring. It seems Effie, not Donald, was unable to have viable children.
Donald apparently lived with Beatrice Bugg between 1930 and 1937 in different parts of western NSW. And tried to improve his lot by taking on the grocery business in 1934, but failed due to his war-caused illnesses (PTSD, and he was gassed, causing chronic throat and stomach problems that eventually killed him).
I think Donald left Beatrice temporarily—for the 3 months he spent in West Wyalong—then returned to her and their children. They settled in Dubbo, before his life ended in Royal Prince Alfred Hospital, Sydney, just a few miles from where he had left his first marriage 7 years earlier.
I hope Donald, who had had a rough trot most of his earlier life, had some joy in his secret life with Beatrice.
And, hey! I now have some new second cousins.
(http://Donald McGregor Death Cert (as Roy Dundas) (McG).jpg)
[See a copy of the death certificate below]
The Death Certificate
Roy Dundas’s occupation is given as Carpenter. Donald was a carpenter. The real Roy Dundas was a saddler.
The cause of death fits with Donald’s war-related illnesses.
The deceased is Not Married. And the informant is B. Dundas, No Relation. In fact she was his defacto widow, Beatrice Bugg.
His parents are Unknown. In fact they were John McGregor and Mary Brickley.
A Newspaper Clipping
Beatrice had another child in 1938. In a newspaper article the child was born to Mr Roy and Mrs Dundas. However the registration version says the father is Unknown. And Roy/Donald died too soon to have been the father. It seems Beatrice had started another relationship shortly after Roy/Donald’s death, while to the world at large she was still thought of as Mrs Roy Dundas.
Donald McGregor’s Resting Place
The remains of Donald McGregor, alias Roy Dundas, lie here: Grave 4739, Zone D Section 14 at Rookwood General Cemetery.
Thank you
To all Rootschat members who helped or who have just taken an interest in this long search (Jamjar, rosball, majm, Rosinish, cando, judb, Rena, sparret, Ruskie, Pheno, phenolphthalein and brigidmac), and to the Dundas family’s researcher, Robyn Knight,
Thank You, So Much.
Peter
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I'm so pleased that you have now have some answers. It shows that you should never give up.
It's a convoluted story showing how hard life was.
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what an amazing twist to the story
i do hope a "DUNDAS" descendant will agree to a DNA, trst
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I wasn't involved in the original research, but what an interesting story and great outcome. Agree with bearkat, it does go to show that we should never give up, hopefully something new will turn up to solve long standing problems. Well done!
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That is a truly amazing outcome.
I remember the thread at the time and how absorbing it was with the Rootschat team really shining at their best in pursuing links and tracks.
It would be a wonderful thing if you could verify a DNA connection and I'm sure we would all like to hear if that does happen for you.
Sue