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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Essex => England => Essex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: findem on Thursday 22 September 16 02:53 BST (UK)
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to find the marriage of William Fewell to Hannah, the couple baptised a son William 5 Feb 1744 at Felsted Essex and after William’s baptism in 1744 the family seemingly vanish off the face of the earth, I didn’t find the marriage in the Felsted PRs.
I have tried on many occasions searches on Family Search, Free Reg, I don’t have subs to The Genealogist or FindMyPast but nothing comes up on the initial searches. I’m hoping that perhaps William and Hannah went back to wherever they married sometime after their son William’s baptism in 1744 and had more children there.
What I’m trying to do is satisfy myself 100% that another William Fuell (Fewell) the son of Philip and Ann Fuell who was baptised 21 Nov 1737 at Takeley Essex is the William Fewell who married my ancestor Margaret Twinn 3 May 1768 at Felsted. If I can find the parish William and Hannah raised other children, perhaps naming patterns and establishing whether or not the 1744 William was married or buried in that particular parish, it might settle the doubt one way or the other.
Some years ago in the Fewell Family topic on The Essex board of RootsChat the son of the Rev. Mills (deceased) posted a reply on that topic, he informed us that his father had researched the Fewell family and posted the following info.
Robert Fewell married in April 1581 Suffolk.
Giles Fewell born abt 1581 Withersfield, Suffolk marr Elizabeth ?
Daniel Fewell born abt 1620 Thaxted.
Daniel Fewell born abt 1645 Thaxted.
John Fewell Fewell born abt 1678 married Elizabeth Green 1707 Dunmow, Essex
Philip married Ann Judd 26 Dec 1736 at Dunmow, parents of William 21 Nov 1737
It was inferred that Philip and Ann’s son William baptised 1737 is the husband of Margaret Twinn.
The son was going to get back to us when he had been able to access his father's computer at his mother's house but we never heard from him again and he didn't respond to messages.
I have managed, with help, to verify that the Rev Mills info is correct with the exception that Philip Fuell married Ann Judd at Takeley not Dunmow but not to 100% prove the link of their son William to Margaret Twinn.
One thing perhaps in their favour is that Philip and Ann named a daughter Millicent, William Fewell and Margaret Twinn named a daughter Milly, unfortunately William and Hannah didn’t name children Margaret, Hannah, Ann or Philip, very uncooperative of them.
I would be extremely grateful to be able get a solution to this problem, it's been bugging me for years, I have gone the rounds of the sites I mentioned quite a number of times hoping that new info on them will be there but no luck.
Regards.
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Good morning my Antipodean Friend
I hope this doesn't throw a spanner in the works; but are you aware of the following marriage?
07.12.1761
Takeley
William Fewell and Elizabeth Green both OTP
A Philomen Fewell was a witness.
Mark
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Burial in Takely, July 25th 1803. Hannah Fewel of Jacks Green, no age given.
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Burial in Takely, July 25th 1803. Hannah Fewel of Jacks Green, no age given.
Hi Sue,
Somehow I missed that one, I'll make a note of it, I've just looked at it in the Takeley transcripts, unfortunately there seems to be nothing which could tie her into the William and Hannah Fewell or their children I'm looking for, still one day it might fit into the picture.
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On Google which should be considered an important site. You may/may not have seen it before.
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Good morning my Antipodean Friend
I hope this doesn't throw a spanner in the works; but are you aware of the following marriage?
07.12.1761
Takeley
William Fewell and Elizabeth Green both OTP
A Philomen Fewell was a witness.
Mark
Hi Mark.
No it doesn't throw a spanner in the work, the spanner was already thrown there by me several years ago when I found the entry. ::) ;D
Another spanner is William Fewel baptised 27 Apr 1740 at Takeley the son of Thomas and Elizabeth.
My not mentioning either the marriage of William Fewell and Elizabeth Green or the William son of Thomas & Elizabeth was an attempt to avoid confusion by burdening my request with too much info. My main aim was to track down William and Hannah's marriage and follow up hopefully with their children, perhaps in hindsight I should have included those pieces of info.
I do have a couple of baptisms not included in my original post, they are both children of William and Elizabeth (nee Green?) Fuell/Fewell and baptised at Takeley.
John 22 Jan 1769.
Elizabeth 21 Apr 1771.
My hope is that once I have William and Hannah's marriage and perhaps their other children I'll be able to look at the whole picture and perhaps come to a well informed decision.
However I am grateful to you Mark and Sue for your contributions, all info received with grateful thanks.
Regards.
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Hi Barry,
Thanks for your input.
I am the author of that topic on that site, however in spite of all that I'm still no closer to finding the marriage of William and Hannah, managed to prove quite a bit on my Fewell ancestors but nothing on William and Hannah. ;D
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to find the marriage of William Fewell to Hannah, the couple baptised a son William 5 Feb 1744 at Felsted Essex and after William’s baptism in 1744 the family seemingly vanish off the face of the earth, I didn’t find the marriage in the Felsted PRs.
Looking at that baptism, I think the surname looks more like Burls. There is a baptism of a John to William and Hannah Burls at Felsted 26 May 1745
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Looking at that baptism, I think the surname looks more like Burls. There is a baptism of a John to William and Hannah Burls at Felsted 26 May 1745
I'll have to get an image of that William 5 Feb 1744 baptism Lizziel, when I found that 1744 baptism it was at the Essex Records Office on a UK trip and on microfiche, which in many cases wasn't as good a reproduction as the now digital ones.
Crossing my fingers hoping that you are right and it is Burls and not Fuell/Fewell, that would be a great help, if it pans out OK it will be the best bit of news I've had in a while so thanks heaps. :)
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Hi - my advice would be that to try to unravel these families you research (if you haven't done so) the Essex wills that relate to Fuel/Fuell/Fewel/Fewells.
You could take up monthly sub to FindMyPast for £1 which gives you access to the Essex Wills Beneficiaries Index, I can see from there there are more than 20 mentions of that name in wills - although nothing that immediately and obviously fits with your query. That would direct you to some wills to download from the Essex Record Office plus there are two where a Fewell is the testator.
All the best
Rob
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Thanks for that suggestion Rob, I'll check it out as soon as I can.
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Looking at that baptism, I think the surname looks more like Burls. There is a baptism of a John to William and Hannah Burls at Felsted 26 May 1745
Hi Lizziel,
Thank you, I've now viewed the digital image and you are absolutely spot on, no question the surname is Burls, I am very grateful to you for spotting that error, that has taken a load of frustration away. ;D ;D
Looking at some old notes I found that on 26 April 2004 a fellow Fewell researcher who had purchased Felsted Microfiche confirmed the surname in the 1744 William baptism at Felsted as being Fuell. I can't recall why I questioned the baptism at that time but obviously something was concerning me, probably having been hard to decipher I wanted another pair of eyes on the job. ::)
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On this topic I have mentioned two Fuell/Fewell couples William and Elizabeth, Thomas and Elisabeth, so in the event someone comes along later who has an interest in either or both of those families here's what I've found.
Thomas Fuell married Elisabeth Judd 20 Jul 1735 at Holy Trinity Takeley. three children all baptised at Takeley.
William and Thomas Fewel both baptised 27 Apr 1740.
John Fewel baptised 3 Oct 1745.
I feel pretty sure Elisabeth Judd, wife of Thomas, is the Elizabeth Judd who was baptised * Aug 1704 at Hatfield Broad Oak the daughter of William and Susanna Judd, also that she is the sister of my ancestor Ann(a) Judd baptised the same place * Nov 1706, Ann married Philip Fuel.
The Free Reg baptism entries for Elizabeth and Ann showed an asterisk in place of the day of the month, I'm not sure if that means the day of the month was difficult to decipher or if it was not given in the parish register, the latter I suspect.
William Fuell married Elizabeth Green 7 Dec 1761 at Holy Trinity Takeley, their children:-
William Fewell bap 7 Nov 1762 at St Mary the Virgin Hatfield Broad Oak (HBO)
James Fuell bap 17 May 1766 HBO.
John Fuell bap 22 Jan 1769 HBO and Takeley.
Elizabeth Fuell bap 21 Apr 1771 Takeley.
John's baptism on Free Reg is shown as at both Takeley and HBO, the same date for both places, no accompanying notes were shown in the Free Reg transcripts but I suspect like his sister Elizabeth he was baptised at Takeley and the baptism also recorded in HBO.
Elizabeth's baptism was at Takeley and also recorded in the HBO parish register, the HBO register noted that Elizabeth was baptised at Takeley by the Revd. Mr. Nicholson.
Again, many thanks to those people who got involved on my behalf, I am really grateful.
Regards.
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I feel pretty sure Elisabeth Judd, wife of Thomas, is the Elizabeth Judd who was baptised * Aug 1704 at Hatfield Broad Oak the daughter of William and Susanna Judd, also that she is the sister of my ancestor Ann(a) Judd baptised the same place * Nov 1706, Ann married Philip Fuel.
The Free Reg baptism entries for Elizabeth and Ann showed an asterisk in place of the day of the month, I'm not sure if that means the day of the month was difficult to decipher or if it was not given in the parish register, the latter I suspect.
Both baptisms are recorded on left hand sides of pages.The vicar has written the names first then month and then day, so on lhs the day disappears into the fold of the book. Elizabeth was the only baptism in that particular month so not able to guess at date. Anna was baptised as Anna Maria and there were several in that month, she was around the middle. It looks as if the date begins with a 1, so is somewhere in the teens.
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William and Susannah Judd had a son William bapt on 4 July 1708. In fact 1708 looks a good year for Judds in HBO. Another William and his wife Sarah had a son John bapt on 17 June, and Alexander and Mary Judd had a daughter Elizabeth bapt on 25 May.
William and Susannah bapt a son Thomas on 20 Sept 1710, a son John bapt 3 Dec 1712, a daughter Susanna bapt 17 Jan 1714 (might be transcribed as 1713, but it's the January which comes after Dec 1713 in the register - so would be 1714 as we know it now), a daughter Jean bapt Feb 2- (another disappearing date) 1715 (comes after Dec 1714).
Can't find any later for William and Susannah, but several other Judd couples baptising children in HBO, and using same names. Alexander and mary also use name Jean twice (presumably their first jean died. So it's quite a large family.
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I feel pretty sure Elisabeth Judd, wife of Thomas, is the Elizabeth Judd who was baptised * Aug 1704 at Hatfield Broad Oak the daughter of William and Susanna Judd, also that she is the sister of my ancestor Ann(a) Judd baptised the same place * Nov 1706, Ann married Philip Fuel.
The Free Reg baptism entries for Elizabeth and Ann showed an asterisk in place of the day of the month, I'm not sure if that means the day of the month was difficult to decipher or if it was not given in the parish register, the latter I suspect.
Both baptisms are recorded on left hand sides of pages.The vicar has written the names first then month and then day, so on lhs the day disappears into the fold of the book. Elizabeth was the only baptism in that particular month so not able to guess at date. Anna was baptised as Anna Maria and there were several in that month, she was around the middle. It looks as if the date begins with a 1, so is somewhere in the teens.
You might not be able to answer this but from your observation of those entries on Essex Ancestors, assuming that's where you viewed the entries, do you think if I contacted the
ERO Archivists they might be able to see enough of those entries in the original PRs to be able to tell me the day of the month?
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William and Susannah Judd had a son William bapt on 4 July 1708. In fact 1708 looks a good year for Judds in HBO. Another William and his wife Sarah had a son John bapt on 17 June, and Alexander and Mary Judd had a daughter Elizabeth bapt on 25 May.
William and Susannah bapt a son Thomas on 20 Sept 1710, a son John bapt 3 Dec 1712, a daughter Susanna bapt 17 Jan 1714 (might be transcribed as 1713, but it's the January which comes after Dec 1713 in the register - so would be 1714 as we know it now), a daughter Jean bapt Feb 2- (another disappearing date) 1715 (comes after Dec 1714).
Can't find any later for William and Susannah, but several other Judd couples baptising children in HBO, and using same names. Alexander and mary also use name Jean twice (presumably their first jean died. So it's quite a large family.
Thanks for that, the dates you show match exactly with those I obtained from Free Reg and the children you show are all I could come up with via Free Reg and Family Search. I haven't gone any further back with that Judd family until I had the opportunity to go on the ERO's Essex Ancestors and confirm what I found on Free Reg, trying to avoid barking up the wrong tree. :) I think I will consider them confirmed thanks to your input.
I think I'm pretty safe in linking the Anna Maria Judd daughter of William and Susanna as the wife of Philip Fuell because I could find no marriage or burial I could attribute to Anna in HBO or elsewhere in Free Reg, F S, FindMyPast and The Genealogist. There was a burial at HBO of an Anna Maria Judd 25 Jul 1725 but I believe she was the Hannah Maria Judd daughter of Alexander and Mary baptised July 1725. As you noticed Alexander and Mary didn't have much luck with their children, three died young and their names were given to others, Elizabeth, Alexander and Jean. Another reason to think the Anna Maria of William and Susanna was the wife of Philip Fuell is that Philip and Ann Fuell named their first two children William and Susanna.
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You might not be able to answer this but from your observation of those entries on Essex Ancestors, assuming that's where you viewed the entries, do you think if I contacted the
ERO Archivists they might be able to see enough of those entries in the original PRs to be able to tell me the day of the month?
Yes it was on Essex Ancestors (SEAX). The trouble with scanning from a bound volume is that it doesn't lie flat and a shadow is cast on the centre.
It would be worth asking the Archivist if they can have a look at the original record. If you don't ask you don't get.
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Hi LizzieL,
I'll contact the Archivists, I'll post the answer on this topic, I've found them to be very obliging on other occasions.
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I've had a reply form the Archivist at the Essex Records Office and as always they've come up trumps for me, here is their reply
"Thank you for your e-mail of 28 September concerning baptisms in Hatfield Broad Oak.
The volume in question (D/P 4/1/8) was rebound in the early 1960s long before the records were deposited here and the result is a very tight binding, which is why the dates cannot be seen on the digitised image. However, I have checked the original and Elizabeth Judd was baptised on 5 August 1704 and Anna Maria Judd on 12 November 1706.
I hope that this information is helpful.
Duty Archivist"
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Forgot to mention I have sent the details of the dates for Elizabeth and Anna Maria to Free Reg, along with the Duty Archivist's reply to my query as proof.
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Well done. I've only had to contact the Essex archive once, and was very impressed with their level of service. I've also visited the Saffron Walden ERO access point and found the staff extremely helpful there.
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On my many trips back to Essex since living here in Australia I've visited the Essex Records Office many times and always found them very obliging and helpful. I'm deeply impressed with the ERO, other organisations could learn a lot about customer service from the people at the ERO, a magnificent bunch.
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Hello,
I am also researching the Fuell/Fewell line. I have traced back to William Fuell/Fewell and Elizabeth Green, the same William who is contesting your connection to Philip Fuell and Ann Judd.
William and Elizabeth also had a son called Philip in 1764 baptised at Hatfield Broad Oak. The name Milly might be a difficult one to determine as evidence since that Philip most likely married Ann Bird in 1788 at Takeley and had two daughters called Milly.
The name Philip has been used in my Fuell line down many generations.
Kind regards,
Jared
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Hi Jared nice to hear from you, as you have probably noticed there has been quite a few of us researching the Fuell/Fewell line.
The couple you mentioned, William Fewell and his wife Elizabeth Green, did come up on our Radar, like you I am of of the opinion that their son Philip married Ann Bird.
As you are probably aware myself and others are of the opinion that the Philip and Ann Fuell who baptised a daughter Millicent at Takeley in 1754, are Philip Fuell and his wife Ann Judd who married in 1736 at Takeley, several of us believe it is their son William Fuell baptised in 1737 at Takeley who married Margaret Twinn and is therefore our ancestor.
My line as it stands at the moment is Philip Fuell (c1711) & his wife Anne Judd
Their son William Fuel (1737 Takeley) he married Margaret Twin in 1768 at Felsted.
Sophia Fuel (1791 Gt Waltham) daughter of William and Margaret, she married Thomas Searles in 1809 at Gt Waltham
If you have evidence to the contrary of anything I've mentioned on this topic or disagree with the line of descent, I would like to hear of it, with several William Fuels/Fewells around and a couple of Philips floating around the area of HBO, Takeley etc it's not been an easy task sorting them out.
William Fuel and his wife Margaret Twin(n) also baptised a daughter Milly, she was baptised in1786 at Gt Waltham.
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My line as it stands at the moment is Philip Fuell (c1711) & his wife Anne Judd
Their son William Fuel (1737 Takeley) he married Margaret Twin in 1768 at Felsted.
Sophia Fuel (1791 Gt Waltham) daughter of William and Margaret, she married Thomas Searles in 1809 at Gt Waltham
If you have evidence to the contrary of anything I've mentioned on this topic or disagree with the line of descent, I would like to hear of it,
William Fuel and his wife Margaret Twin(n) also baptised a daughter Milly, she was baptised in1786 at Gt Waltham.
I don't want to be nitpicking but...
William Fuel (1737) married Margaret Twin in 1768
Are there children bap. prior to Milly & Sophia as the gap between marriage & then the baptisms of Milly & Sophia is huge (18 yrs)?
Milly baptised in1786
Sophia (dau) b1791
Annie
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William and Margaret's first child was Elizabeth baptised 1768, actually baptised 2 weeks before William and Margaret married, they had nine known children, the last being Sophia in 1791.
Elizabeth was baptised in Felsted the other eight in Gt Waltham.
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Thanks for confirming.
Always best to include relevant details to save having to answer unecessary questions & may also lead to others with an interest in the family.
Annie
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Hello,
Thank you for the reply. This surname is definitely proving a challenge in the Essex area.
There is a Jeremiah Fewell who married Judith Crawley and had children baptised at Hatfield Broad Oak Ann 1774, William 1776, John 1778 and Philip 1780. I suspected he could have been a son of Philip Fuell and Ann Judd, but I could not find his baptism. The parents of Jeremiah could possibly help in determining the parents of William Fuell who married Elizabeth Green.
To help rule out my Willam's parents as Philip and Ann, what is the key evidence that links the family in Felsted to Takeley?
The marriage of William and Elizabeth Green at Takeley links this William from Hatfield Broad Oak to a plausible birth at Takeley being named of that parish. I can only find two options for a William baptised in Takeley and given there is no use in William's children's and grandchildren for the Name Thomas it does possibly leave only Philip. There is another baptism in Little Canfield to a Robert, but a name also never used.
There does not seem to be enough substance of evidence with William and Margaret's daughter called Milly as a relation to Millicient, especially when Philip Fuell and Ann Bird named two daughters by that name (one died). If one could be upheld as evidence then both families are equally possible and would logically lean in favour to the one whose father was Philip.
It does make it hard as any of the William's could be yours or mine given naming traditions might have skipped a generation or two. If naming traditions were key it does lean in favour of my William, but there is still no hard evidence to confirm a connection. I do see that Philip and Ann's son Philip also had a son called Philip so there is defiantly some family significance in the name.
Kind regards,
Jared
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Hi Jared,
The linking of the family of William Fuell baptised 1737 at Takeley to the William Fuell who married Margaret Twin at Felsted came about from the joint research of myself and several other Fewell researchers. We based it I think mainly on the fact that William (parents Philip Fuell & Anne Judd) had a sister named Millicent and the William and Margaret of Felsted named a daughter Milly, we were unable, if my memory serves me correct, to find another Milly or Millicent Fewell of an acceptable age. Also, the age of William of Takeley who would have been 21 when marrying Margaret Twin is acceptable.
We did hear from the son of a Reverend Mills who researched the Fewell line many years before we did, he gave us some info from his father's research which appears to confirm some of our research. One couple he mentioned is of interest and they are according to Rev Mills the parents of Philip Fuell (husband of Anne Judd), unfortunately the info is very brief but leads me to Dunmow. Eventually I will be getting a sub for the ERO’s Essex Ancestors and checking thayt family out, it does look strong.
The Rev's son was going to try to access his father's computer to flesh out what he gave us but we never heard anything again, I did leave a message on RootsChat and later sent an email but no replies.
I’m concerned that at the moment I’m unable to find my Fuell Fewell research notes to give a fuller answer, I’ve recently bought a new PC and wondering if they became lost in the changeover. If I fail to find them I guess I might be able to reconstruct then somewhat from this topic and others but I’m a bit short on time today. What I have typed (above) has come from my Family Group Sheets in Excel.
I confess that William and Margaret naming their first child Elizabeth didn't sit well with me but without those 'blankety blank' notes I'm not sure how we sorted it, I can say from my FGS that William had a great grandmother named Elizabeth I would hope we came up with something more substantial than that.
Regards
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Two Gt Dunmow marriages which might connect somewhere:
William Fewel to Sarah Harsler botp, by Banns, 7 Jun 1761, witnesses Henry Cook and Jesse Gunn
Henry Cook to Elizabeth Fewel botp by Banns, 20 Oct 1761, witnesses Sam: Cook, Jesse Gunn.
Jesses Gunn is the only one signed, witnessed lots of marriages, probably parish clerk or similar.
Earlier marriage 3 June 1707, John Fewell and Elizabeth Green of Takeley. I think it means she was from Takeley, because other records on same page say "both of..." if bride and groom were both from another parish
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Just realised there was an L after the 1707 marriage entry so it was by licence. Date might be 8 June not 3 - not a very clear image
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Hi,
Unless there is something that I have missed, how have you come to the conclusion that because William's daughter named Milly, she is the confirmed niece of Millicent? It is heavily assumed to be considered proof.
As per my previous post there are other Milly Fuell/Fewell's who were the daughters of Philip Fuell and Ann Bird. This Philip is most likely to be the son of William Fuell and Elizabeth Green. The probability that the Milly's born to Philip Fuell and Ann Bird as great-granddaughters of Philip Fuell and Ann Judd are logically equal to your William's daughter, but is reinforced by the evidence their father is a Philip.
If you consider Milly a family name as evidence for an aunty/niece connection, how is William and Elizabeth's son named Philip after a plausible grandfather/grandson connection rejected?
Has anyone checked the sources of the Rev Mills and did it provide any documented evidence of a link for your William with sources? Also mentioned that other people have researched this line, has anyone else found any evidence to link your William to Philip and Ann apart from the Milly child?
Have you considered disproving the following evidence:
- William Fuell and Elizabeth Green are married at Takeley, noting William of Takeley, evidence placing this William in the correct town and parish.
- William who married Elizabeth for a 1737 baptism would have been 24 years of age, no less probable than your William given men didn't always marry at just 21 years at this time.
- William and Elizabeth had a son called Philip baptised in 1764 at Hatfield Broad Oak.
- William and Elizabeth lived at Brewers End as evident by the burial record of their son John in 1769 at Hatfield Broad Oak noting the residence. Hatfield Broad Oak is possibly Elizabeth's native parish. Brewers End by property listings seems to be in the town of Takeley around the Chapel Fields road area placing this William as a highly likely candidate for the son of Philip Fuell and Ann Judd.
This might seem blunt, but I do seek out sufficient evidence to rule any possibilities in contra to the evidence I have compiled.
Kind Regards,
Jared
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Thanks for that info LizzieL, much appreciated.
Regards.
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Just realised there was an L after the 1707 marriage entry so it was by licence. Date might be 8 June not 3 - not a very clear image
This John and Elizabeth likely to be Philip's parents
baptism 6 Jun 1714 at Lt Canfield, Philip son of John and Elizabeth Fewel (sic)
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Hi Jared,
As I mentioned I will be attempting to reconstruct my missing notes, this will take some time.
As to your questions regarding the Rev Mills research there is a topic on the Essex board "Fewell Family" dated 13 March 2005 it's on page 30, have a read of that and it will answer your queries. I certainly had no replies from the Rev Mills son Trevor and I'm pretty sure no one else has.
Out of curiosity in the mean time perhaps you could outline what you have done to eliminate William the son of Philip Fuel and his wife Anne Judd as the husband of Margaret Twin?
I would like to see a descendant line of your Fuells down to say William and Margaret please just so I can get matters firmly in my head.
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Hello,
The big problem for your William is location. While it could still be possible, there is yet to be presented any real documented evidence that links your William to Takeley.
Milly (Melly as spelt in the baptism) is far from conclusive evidence, she could well be named from her mother's family. Although the same could be said for the two called Milly/Milley daughter's of Philip Fewell of Takeley Street (son of William and Elizabeth), it is hard to ignore the evidence their father is called Philip. So compare the probabilities:
- There are two plausible unique family names in William and Elizabeth's family with a grandson likely named after a grandfather; opposed to:
- only one unique family name with your William and Margaret.
I noticed you accidentally noted your William's age as 21, when I assume you meant he would have been 31 when married for a possible 1737 baptism. Just note that the baptism is not always the birth year, he could have been born say 2 or more years prior. William who married Elizabeth would have been about 24 when married in 1761 at Takeley.
While not impossible for your William, the odds are more in favour of the William who married Elizabeth.
Look at the family trend Philip (who married Ann Judd) was 22, his father John was 26, his father Daniel was 23. Philip's brother Thomas was 24 and Philip's son Philip Jr. was 24.
Looking at the marriages of each William:
- William who married Elizabeth is noted "of Takeley". Also to note a Philemon Fuell was a third witness in their marriage. Philemon is very plausibly William's father Philip.
- William who married Margaret Twin is noted "of Great Waltham" when married in another parish so we can assume that it is more probable that Great Waltham is his native parish or his parents moved there while he was younger.
We can make an educated conclusion Philip and Ann Judd stayed around the Takeley area as evident by their son Philip who was married at Takeley and had children baptised there. Philip (Jr.) is very plausibly the burial in 1819 at Takeley noting an age of 81 years in the register, (+/- take 5 years) a very plausible match to his baptism in 1743. Philip (Jr.)'s son Bentley was buried at Little Canfield in 1830 hinting the family never moved far. Possible burial for Philip husband of Ann Judd at Great Canfield in 1788 where he resided at Great Canfield close to where his grandson Bentley Fewell lived.
I haven't compiled any tree in relation to your William and Margaret since tracing those at Takeley has not yet lead over to the Great Waltham area. I am currently looking into the family of John Fewell and Elizabeth Green of Takeley with their children Philip, Thomas, Elizabeth, William and possibly a son John who married Mary Coe and resided at Great/Little Canfield who is noted with his son John Jr. as labourers in the families baptism/burial documents. Also I am looking into the ancestry of John which looks to correspond with what everybody else is researching up to Robert.
Kind regards,
Jared
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Hi Jared
You mention that “The big problem for your William is location. While it could still be possible, there is yet to be presented any real documented evidence that links your William to Takeley.”
You also state: “- William who married Elizabeth is noted "of Takeley". Also to note a Philemon Fuell was a third witness in their marriage. Philemon is very plausibly William's father Philip.
- William who married Margaret Twin is noted "of Great Waltham" when married in another parish so we can assume that it is more probable that Great Waltham is his native parish or his parents moved there while he was younger.”
Experience tells us that the note on a parish register which states a person is “of this parish” or another parish, all it means is that at the time of the event that person was residing in that parish. Both the Williams in question could just as easily have been born in other parishes, come to that even in other counties.
I think that it’s well known that sons were very prone to moving some distances away from home for work, even to other counties, as did some daughters. I even have a female ancestor who came from Nun Monkton in Yorkshire to Gt Waltham in Essex to marry an Essex man in 1766.
It has also been found that some people moved to a parish, (either the Bride’s or Bridegroom’s) staying with friends or relatives so they could claim to be living in the said parish and marry without the need for a licence.
"While not impossible for your William, the odds are more in favour of the William who married Elizabeth.”
Not quite sure what you mean by the above I’ve probably misunderstood, William Fewell and his wife Elizabeth Green were still baptising children at Takeley after William Fuel and Margaret Twin married in 1768 at Felsted so William and Elizabeth can be ruled out of being a direct ancestor of mine, possibly related though.
It appears we are both of the opinion that the John Fewell who married Elizabeth Green “of Takeley” on 3 Jun 1707 at Gt Dunmow by licence is a good candidate as the father of Philip Fuel husband of Anne, incidentally the Rev Mills was of the opinion that it was so.
Whilst not wishing to muddy the waters did you notice the baptism at Takeley of William the son of Thomas and Elizabeth Fewell on 27 Apr 1740? William and Margaret Fewell did not name any of their children Thomas so I don't think he is in the running to be the husband of Margaret Twinn
Btw sorry for the poor maths not sure how I managed that error. :-[ :)
I have taken all your comments on board and I will be taking another look at my Fewell families.
Regards.
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Just realised that I haven't mentioned what led me to Philip Fuell and his wife Anne Judd.
Researching my Searles ancestors I got back to Thomas Searles and his wife Sophia, the next step was to find their marriage which gave me the Fuell/Fewell surname.
A search for Sophia led me to William Fewell and his wife Margaret Twin, Sophia being their last child.
Identifying William I well remember for the pain it was, then I came across the family of Philip Fuell and his wife Anne Judd at Takeley, what hit me straight away was the name Millicent and immediately the Melly or Milly of William and Margaret came to mind. I did see other Millys but none to make me doubt that Milly, sister of Sophia, was named after William's sister Millicent.
Those of us researching the Fewell family back then noted that the second letter was either an e or a badly written i, it was probably meant to be an e, the result of Milly spoken with an Essex accent by the parents.
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Hello,
From your comment about people being noted "of this parish", I do agree that it is possible they could have just resided, but it is equally possible it is their native parish.
While tracking families can lead from one place to another, beyond the census this is increasingly difficult and evidence from things like marriage/banns documents were increasingly critical to prove that a person moved several parishes over. If your female ancestor noted the parish where she came from in her marriage, then that is evidence for you to make a link. William who married Margaret only has evidence to say he was from Great Waltham which is even further away from Takeley than Felsted. Born or not, there is still nothing to say directly he was from Takeley only possibly the Milicent name. I note that a lot of the Fewells were Farmers, Agricultural Labouers, etc. so it is possible they moved around a bit, but it not as likely they moved around as much as the mining families in the Durham area who were poached from Colliery to Colliery moving several parishes or County. Farmers I have researched over England in my family were usually more settled.
Consider that a lot of the records are not transcribed yet or will never be due to being lost. A lot of what we do see can be re-written from the originals. Have you extensively searched the registers for Great Waltham and the parishes further south for your William.
About the possibility comment it is meaning that the odds are more stacked in favour of William husband of Elizabeth being the son of Philip Fewell and Ann Judd than William who married Margaret.
I also have looked at the baptism to Thomas and Elizabeth in 1740 and while you can confidently rule this out as your William based on no children by the name Thomas, I can also make the same judgement based on William and Elizabeth not having any children called Thomas. That William is suspected to be the one who married (1) Sarah Harsler and (2) Elizabeth Greygoose at Great Dunmow. That William had a son called Thomas in 1771.
While I do understand your significance for the name Milly/Milicent being the eureka moment in your research, as mentioned before that is highly circumstantial. There are plenty of other Milicient's living who could namesake their daughter. It could have even been the nurses name. I have in my family tree born in 1840 a Thomas O'Conner William Binns Maddison. While this could have been a clue to the families heritage, the documented family line shows nothing quite that unique. It could well have been the Milkman for all we know.
If the Milicent name is the hook for making your connection to Philip and Ann, then we need to provide evidence to rule out:
- William Fewell married Elizabeth Green at Takeley (marriage noted a third witness Philomon Fuell, who is likely father or brother who could only have been one of the two Philip's that lived in Takeley at that time, considering a third witness is not required it signifies a family importance);
- William who named a son Philip;
- Philip who in turn named two daughters Milly/Milley after his plausible aunt;
- William and his son Philip who lived in the same town/parish as Philip Fewell and Ann Judd.
Have you seen that Jeremiah Fewell who I suspect is the son of Philip and Ann (born in the missing baptisms evident by his burial age given) named two children Philip 1780 and Ann 1774. Jeremiah attended Hatfield Broad Oak the same parish that William and Elizabeth frequented, making a brother connection very likely.
None of the Fewells descended from John Fewell and Elizabeth Green that I have researched has lead me as far East as Felsted let alone South/East to Great Waltham. The furtherest the sons in this family has gone (down to the late 1700's) is Dunmow, Hatfield Broad Oak and Great Canfield, basically a triangle area.
Have you seen on the Essex site that the Samuel, assume son or grandson of your William is noted occupying (assume renting): "Channels etc. in Little Waltham, Springfield and Broomfield in occ. Tho.Beardwell, Dan.Harrington and Sam.Fewel" D/P 220/25/156. It would pay to search for other records of the Waltham areas to see just how long the Fewells could have been there. It is completely possible the Fewell surname in that area derived from another surname based on the localised accents that England had from town to town. For instance researching my Maddison family from Durham I found that the Northumbrians commonly spelt and pronounced it Matthewson. When Matthewsons went down to Durham evidence from census and parish register records showed that it became Maddison and vice versa from Durham to Northumberland. Maddison's generally derived from Stanhope in Durham back to the 1100's and the Matthewsons from a more Scottish ancestry or migration of continental europeans to the UK fixing their father's name.
Kind Regards,
Jared
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Hi Jared,
Just a couple of points
"It would pay to search for other records of the Waltham areas to see just how long the Fewells could have been there. It is completely possible the Fewell surname in that area derived from another surname based on the localised accents that England had from town to town."
Myself and other Fewell researchers have checked that area although not with the intention of determining Fewell length of stay in the area, our search was for William the husband of Margaret Twin and some other Fewells. Without being able to put my hands on my handwritten notes for those searches I can't give any results but I can say from memory no William born or baptised in the appropriate period was found in those areas.
" If your female ancestor noted the parish where she came from in her marriage, then that is evidence for you to make a link."
Actually the marriage entry didn't give her place of birth/residence, I was extremely lucky that her father and brother had the name Oswald and that's when the name Oswald started appearing in descendant lines of the family she married into. Previously I had searched no end of Essex parish registers etc looking for that lady's birth/baptism, then a guy I contacted in the Guild of one name studies pointed me in the right direction, I would never have considered Yorkshire as a place to search.
Where did John Fewell and his wife Elizabeth Green baptise their Children please. I've looked in both Lt Canfield and Takeley transcripts and not found them there.
Regards.
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Hello,
Have a look in the Hatfield Broad Oak Parish which is nearby in location to Takeley. Search for John buried there in 1769 and notes his parents with residence of Brewers End which is near Takeley. William and Elizabeth’s son Philip’s children are baptised at Takeley noting their residence as Takeley Street.
With your Oswald connection, have you any other evidence other than a name? The reason to question is that if you base a confirmed connection on just a name then you will have people connecting to families all over the country and constantly jumping from one Parish to another. Sound advice given from genealogists is that when a family starts to jump around from Parish to Parish and even County to County, this starts to raise some eyebrows. If I went by that logic, then I could claim many royal connections, but alas there is no actual evidence to prove such a connection. I descend from a James Maddison who lived at Anick near Hexham in Northumberland, the only James Maddison who is the correct age noted is born in Sunderland in Durham. While I can claim descent from him based on the family names, there is no other evidence to prove a connection existed and therefore cannot be proven beyond reasonable doubt.
Like the Millicent connection, the Oswald connection needs to be proven beyond reasonable doubt.
I stress to all who are researching that real evidence from documents needs to be in line to support a theoretical connection. Too often incorrect family trees are based on little or no evidence and just a name.
Kind Regards,
Jared
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Have you seen the Samuel Fewell married at Little Waltham in 1774 and who died there I think it was 1817 with a birth year circa 1748.
Given the proximity he could likely be a brother to your William and would suggest that a Fewell family did live there. The children may not have been born there, but possibly moved there as children or young adults with the parents.
Did your William have a son called Samuel?
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Hi Jared,
"Have a look in the Hatfield Broad Oak Parish which is nearby in location to Takeley. Search for John buried there in 1769 and notes his parents with residence of Brewers End which is near Takeley. William and Elizabeth’s son Philip’s children are baptised at Takeley noting their residence as Takeley Street."
Won't be able to do so for a while I don't have an Essex ancestors sub.
"With your Oswald connection, have you any other evidence other than a name?"
Yes, quite a bit and more than sufficient to give me confidence I have that right lady, to be honest this one gave me trouble accepting it, my initial thoughts were what brought this couple together, can't be right. However the evidence mounted up to a point where I had to accept the fact that Susanna Sturdy came all the way from Nun Monkton Yorkshire to Gt Waltham in Essex and married William Adams. No doubt how this couple met or how the marriage was arranged I guess I'll never know, I do know her father is buried in Nun Monkton and her brother Oswald in Tadcaster so it wasn't a case of her family moving down to Essex.
"Have you seen the Samuel Fewell married at Little Waltham in 1774 and who died there I think it was 1817 with a birth year circa 1748."
I can't be sure, I know our group searched quite a number of parishes but whether that Samuel came to light or whether anyone brought it to my attention I can't be sure.
HBO parish registers have given me food for thought, I recall initially they were being held at HBO all the ERO had at the time was an index which gave very brief details, if you found something of interest it would entail contacting HBO and pay a fee for the info.
Regards.
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Yes, quite a bit and more than sufficient to give me confidence I have that right lady, to be honest this one gave me trouble accepting it, my initial thoughts were what brought this couple together, can't be right. However the evidence mounted up to a point where I had to accept the fact that Susanna Sturdy came all the way from Nun Monkton Yorkshire to Gt Waltham in Essex and married William Adams. No doubt how this couple met or how the marriage was arranged I guess I'll never know, I do know her father is buried in Nun Monkton and her brother Oswald in Tadcaster so it wasn't a case of her family moving down to Essex.
I had a similar problem with one of my ancestor's relatives. He seemed to have been born in Yorkshire, lived there all his life and died there, but the only likely marriage was one in London. I had his name (rather uncommon surname), wife's forename (from baptisms of children) and a likely date range (between the year he was 18 and baptism of first child). The groom in the marriage I had found in London was a servant, but otp. The final bit of evidence was finding him as a beneficiary in the will of his former employer. He was a valet to a gentleman who had a country house in Yorkshire and a town house in London in the same parish as the marriage. Looking through the marriage records for that church, I discovered his employer had also married there several years earlier.
Perhaps your lady from Nun Monkton was a servant who travelled with the family she was employed by. Many kept a set of servants in each house, but valets, ladies' maids, nurses and governesses would frequently travel with the family.
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Hi LizzieL
"Perhaps your lady from Nun Monkton was a servant who travelled with the family she was employed by. Many kept a set of servants in each house, but valets, ladies' maids, nurses and governesses would frequently travel with the family."
A very likely scenario that.
I was pretty lucky with my Yorkshire lass ancestor, apart from all the usual marriage and burial checks in Yorkshire and Essex which panned out well some other details helped.
Susanna had a mother and sister named Elizabeth, when Susanna Sturdy married William Adams a witness to the marriage was an Elizabeth Sturdy, whether that witness was her sister or mother is an unknown.
Additionally Susanna had a brother and father named Oswald and as I've mentioned in this topic William and Susanna were the first of my Adams families to use the name Oswald.
I guess I'm entitled to get lucky with my ancestors occasionally. 8) ;D
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Was going to post but a recheck finds it surplus to needs so I deleted it.