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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: groom on Tuesday 20 September 16 23:02 BST (UK)
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Not sure if this should go here or on the Canadian board as it is a general question.
Greensleeves and I are working on a tree for a friend of hers and I have found a member of the family, Mabel Emily Sutton born 1885 Bristol, who went to Canada, arriving in Quebec on the 18th July 1920. On her application form dated 8th April 1920 she stated that she was going to be married, that her ticket was paid for by Thomas Harris and she was going to her aunt Mrs Gale. She gave her next of kin in England as her mother Julia at an address in Bristol. It was the first time she'd been to Canada.
I then found her marriage certificate for 21st July 1920 at Elgin, Ontario to Thomas Harris, a farmer and widower. Parents match exactly, so I know it is the right person and a witness was Eliza Gale.
Next thing I found was the family on the 1921 Canadian census. Thomas was older than Mabel and was born 1879 in Herefordshire, he emigrated to Canada in 1884. There are 5 children with them - 2 aged 10 and 6 born in Ontario, two aged 13 and 5 born in England and a baby born in 1921. On investigation I believe the two born in England are Mabel's illegitimate children who travelled out with her.
So to my question - how would Mabel have got to know Thomas? He was in Canada before she was born and married until at least 1915. Did Canada advertise for women as I know Australian farmers did earlier on? Could the marriage have been arranged by Eliza Gale? Or could Thomas have fought in WW1, been sent to England and met her that way - he would have been in his late 30s then and a farmer?
Any ideas?
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Letter writing courtship?
Blue
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That's possible, but how did they get to know about each other in the first place, that's the mystery?
I'm trying to work out how Eliza Gale was related and whether she was really an aunt, or was she some sort of "go between."
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When this is answered it might possibly also help me .... how did my Great Aunt Lizzie manage to travel to Canada as a lone, single woman aged around 20, and then get married within a year to a man from Manchester who had been in Canada already for 11 years ? She'd have been 11 years old when he left the UK for good, and her family lived 200 miles from Manchester, so she can hardly have known him before he went !
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I think Canadian WW1 Army records are available, might be worth a search for Thomas. :-\
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I wonder what the equivalent of Match.com was in the 1920's?
Newspaper advertisements? (Personal Section:-)
Romilly.
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Your's is slightly easier Lydart, as she could easily have just met him there, fallen in love and married. However in the case of Mabel and Thomas, she arrived 18th July and married him 3 days later. The marriage was obviously planned as he paid for her ticket to Canada.
I wonder what the equivalent of Match.com was in the 1920's?
Newspaper advertisements? (Personal Section:-)
That was my though as well, Romilly. I've read stories where farmers from Australia and NZ advertised for wives, but that was earlier than 1920. He was obviously prepared to accept her two children as in the 1921 census they are listed under his name.
Thanks NJ - any idea where they are, I have access to Ancestry and FindMyPast?
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Some years ago I was researching a distant ancestor who had emigrated with her family and found all three sons had served in WW1; I'm sure the records were not on a subscription site but a general Canadian government one. I'm away from my files at the moment but will have a look when I get back.
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http://www.rootschat.com/links/01e8n/
Bit rusty at shrinking links.....hope that works!
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Garrison Keillor relates the story of at least one arranged marriage in "Lake Woebegone Days" which is I believe based on research plus anecdote. In the case I remember the farmer from a newly-settled area (Minnesota) advertised for a bride in a newspaper in one of the big cities. The couple married despite having no language in common!
My relative Margaretta Draper (from Dunmurry, Co Antrim, 35, single) embarked on 16/3/1932 at Southampton bound for Sydney but giving her final destination as New Zealand (A***y). Australian archives finds that the ship docked at Fremantle on 21/5/1932 - it then had still to call at Melbourne before Sydney, and she would still then have to reach New Zealand. Yet the same year she married a James Crawford Stewart in New Zealand. Either an arranged marriage or a brief courtship!
I know this is right because James (60) Margaretta (58) and McLeod Stewart (24) arrive in Southampton from Wellington in 1953 (FindMyPast) en route for Mr R Draper of Dunmurray (her dad) and unless McLeod's age is seriously wrong he's a son of James' earlier marriage (or less likely some other relative). They sound Scottish so they could be from Northern Ireland, but I can't see how Margaretta would have known him earlier - the only one I found was a soldier from Falkirk. There are possible ship movements for him before 1932, but none relate to New Zealand. (James C Stewart is of course a very common name.)
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I have been looking through the FT in an attempt to identify an Eliza who might be the aunt, Eliza Gale. Can't find anyone by the name of Eliza in the family at that time. So I do suspect that Eliza Gale might have been some kind of go-between. I think they did have marriage agencies in those days. So maybe that was her profession and that the imported brides were instructed to refer to her as their aunt.
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I think Mrs Gale is the clue to this, it seems reasonable to think she was a friend or neighbour of Thomas and knew he was looking for a wife to take care of his children.
So her friend or sister back home has a daughter in need of a husband, with no chance of finding one in England in 1920, as the war, regrettably, meant that there was a shortage of eligible men, so a marriage is arranged, possibly with exchange of letters and photos, and Mrs gale testifying to Thomas's excellent qualities.
I had two aunts in this situation, both unmarried, and their diaries, which I should not really have read, suggests their mum spent a bit of time trying to arrange marriages.
Quote " I would rather die than marry mr xxxx" :)
Mike
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I agree, Mrs Gale is the clue, as not only is she the aunt Mabel was supposed to be going to, but would only spend a couple of days with before the marriage, but she was also a witness at the marriage. However, like GS, I can't find an Eliza (or Elizabeth) who would fit. To be an aunt to Mabel she would need to be a sister to either her father Arthur Frank John Sutton or her mother Julia Ham wouldn't she? Then she would have had to marry a Mr Gale.
It could well be that due to the shortage of men in England and the fact that Mabel was single and 35 in 1920, that she decided to take a chance with a stranger in Canada.
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Thanks NJ - I can't see one that fits there. Most on that list are born a lot later than he was, so I wonder if he would have been too old to have been called up, especially as he was a farmer.
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There is an Elgin County genealogy site hosted by Genweb which might be worth exploring.
William
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I have to point out that every female friend of my mums was called aunt, even fifty years down the line her bridesmaid was "aunty Jean".
Mike
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I thought that might be the case but it could have been the reason for them meeting in England.
Mrs Gale does seem to be the link, have you found her on any Canadian census?
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There are several, but I don't have enough information about her to identify which one she could be. I've just looked at the marriage again and a William Gale is the other witness, so probably Eliza's husband. Address is just given as St Thomas, Elgin. Thomas Harris's address is given as Township of Yarmouth, County of Elgin. His parents were William Harris and Caroline (not known). He was 42 in 1920 and born in Herefordshire, England.
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Good point about the loss of so many potential husbands in WW1 Mazi - I hadn't put two and two together there. Does seem like a suitable course of action for a woman with children to support, and a farmer in a similar situation.
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My grandfather was in WW1 and he was born in 1873. He had never been in the army prior to the war, he looked after the war horses.
The older men volunteered.
My gt grandfather in his 60s joined the Labour Corps as he was a master builder, had male relatives 50 to 60 yrs old joining the Labour Corps, they were all railway workers.
Did you know there were pen pal clubs and magazines. Anyone seen the film Hello Dolly - Dolly Levi the matchmaker. Was the aunt just the link and down as a relative for convenience, aunty could have been a matchmaker via links in UK.
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Hi Groom
Was Mabel's father actually Arthur Frank or Arthur Frederick as in this 1883 marriage record to Julia Ham.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NFTW-7LY
If he was Arthur Frederick then Mabel's marriage would appear to have been a family arrangement and that Eliza Gale could be Mabel's cousin William's wife.
Arthur Frederick Sutton B: 1862 Reading had a sister Alice Eliza B: 1858 Greenwich
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5YX-ZKY
An Alice Eliza Sutton married William Gale in Barton Regis District 1885.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2DYQ-9HX
1891 Census has them living 14 Haversham Street, Barton Regis, Bristol
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:WBH9-CN2
Their son William John Sutton Gale was christened Bristol in 1886.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NNSY-4VF
He married Eliza Ann Stokes in 1905 St Thomas District Devon
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:267H-KSL
Shown on later passenger lists the 1921 Census of Canada where they are living in St Thomas, Elgin suggests that William 1st emigrated c 1913 and his wife (Liza) and 4 children c1914 and a son also born in England c 1918.
Further info on William John Sutton Gale and Eliza Ann Stokes
http://mfo.me.uk/getperson.php?personID=I8747&tree=E1
There is a William and Alice E Gale in Canada 1921 living in Yarmouth, Elgin where Mabel married in 1920. Alice's emigration year is given as 1914. Both were B: c. 1860 England so my thinking is that the Mrs Gale mentioned on Mabel's application form could have in fact been her aunt Alice Eliza Gale nee Sutton and her son William and wife Eliza who lived St. Thomas, Elgin, were the witnesses to Mabel's marriage.
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Brilliant Avia - I think you've cracked it. Yes her father was Arthur Frederick, sorry that was a mistake, it was her brother who was Arthur Frank John. So it does look as she was a relative and perhaps arranged the marriage between Mabel and a neighbour Thomas Harris, knowing that both were struggling to bring up children on their own. It was still a big gamble wasn't it, to go all that way and marry within hours of meeting. They must have hit it off, as a daughter was born a year later!
Thank you very much, that's another puzzle solved.
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I've just checked and it does look as if Eliza Gales last two children were also born in England. Florence in 1915 and Clifford in 1918. That is rather odd as it means she was crossing the Atlantic during WW1. I wonder why she felt the need for them to be born outside Canada?
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Hi Groom
So pleased that it looks like we've got there with Mabel.
We can only guess at how much of a leap of faith it would have been for her to move out to a far away country with her children and marry a man that she perhaps had only learnt about from her father's family.
Mabel's cousin William served in England with the Canadian Expeditionary Force 1916-1919 and his extensive service file gives addresses in Exmouth and Folkestone for Eliza during this time.
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/first-world-war-1914-1918-cef/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=403812
It is of course a possibility, depending on when Thomas became a widower, that when they were back over in England, William and/or Eliza may have met up with Mabel and have talked to her about Thomas and, perhaps, even shown a photo.
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It looks like Eliza was in Canada for a short time and then returned to England, possibly at the time of William's signing up?
Eliza and all her children are on a passenger list in 1918. She is a returning resident. Added: the transcript indicates they may have come in through New York.
Added: Wm John Sutton Gale returned to Canada 23 Aug 1919.
PB
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Thank you Avia and PB. It looks as if Eliza just didn't fancy staying in Canada alone while William was at war doesn't it?
Why is it that all the branch lines on trees seem to be more interesting than the main one?
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I was going to suggest that Eliza could have been a middle name but I was too late!
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You would have been right in a way a-l. It looks as if Alice Sutton was actually Alice Eliza and became the Mrs Gale that Mabel gave as her aunt. The fact that her son married an Eliza and it was that Eliza and the son who were witnesses threw me.
That's what is so great about RC, there is always someone who can work things out.
Thank you everyone who helped sort out this puzzle.
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An article on Canadian Heroines (interesting read) but it does mention there were 6,000 women who went to Canada between 1908 - 1924 through arranged marriages. The Japenese women were married by proxy in Japan after exchanging photos by mail ;)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ijc/
Sandra
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That's an interesting story, Sandra. You wouldn't think that sort of thing happened as late as the 1920s would you?