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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: John Ritson on Sunday 18 September 16 22:41 BST (UK)
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I have just received my grandfathers first world war things. This includes 3 medals. 1914 star, British war medal and the Victory medal. From documents I also have I know he joined the Lancashire Fusiliers. He enlisted on 6th march 1908 and passed the mounted Infantry after 4 months training on the 1st of october 1912. He went overseas 23rd August 1914. I have include a photograph on his bike. Can anyone I.D. it? I have most of his 3rd class education certificate and the armband he is wearing signifies he was a corporal. He documentation says he was in the Royal Engineers 4th division signal corps. He served until 5th of March 1920. Any tips to find out where he was. I know he had the 4 blue chevrons and one red so he served right through the war. My picture is cropped from the original to fit this formats file
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Here is the composition of 4th Division, which includes 4th Div Signals Company - http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/4th-division/
Do you have his record? In which case it will tell you when he transferred to the Royal Engineers. You can look for 4th Div's war diary on the National Archives website. His signal company's war diary may also be available.
I would also ask a moderator to put a link on the photographic section. There are members who can id the motorcycle..
Ken
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Thanks for the reply. I have army form z.21 saying that he was being transferred to the reserve on the 5th of April 1919 and form b 2067 , a character certificate with a discharge date of 5 th of March 1920. Also a discharge certificate b 2079 saying that he served 11 years and 1 month with the colors and11 months in the reserves. All the certificates were signed by a RE officer.
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The bike is a 1914 550cc Triumph.
Your man must have been in 2 Batt. LF as they were part of the 4th. Div. & went overseas with them on the 23rd. (see other thread).
I think he was already in the Signals prior to embarkation as this looks like a home photo possibly taken on the annual camp 1914.
The 4th. Div. RE only mentions bridge blowing, pontoon building & entrenching so won't be any help.
As I mentioned in the other thread the Signals were attached to 10 & 11 Bde. 4th. Div.
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Thanks Jim. As he was in the Army from 1908 and trained as a mounted infantry man in 1912 it is probable that he progressed to the motor bike training. His medal card dated 22nd of August 1914 gives a Lancashire Fusiliers number 1400 and a RE number 359642 which means he was in the RE when he sailed to France . Thanks for the bike info. If you want to see the full size photo I can email it to you.
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Just re-reading your 1st. post. The blue & white armband indicates a signaller not a Cpl.
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Hi! Jim, My grandada passed his Third Class certificate and I have read that it was almost automatic to be promoted to Corporal for most dispatch riders. Here is a quote from the internet. "On the recommendation of the Council of Military Education three levels or standards were set out and were linked with promotion in the ranks. The third-class certificate specified the standard for promotion to the rank of corporal the candidate was to read aloud and to write from dictation passages from an easy narrative, and to work examples in the four compound rules of arithmetic and the reduction of money" Does the rank of Sapper differ from Corporal?
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Sapper is another name for a Pte.
What you said was this.
armband he is wearing signifies he was a corporal
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Thanks Jim. As he was in the Army from 1908 and trained as a mounted infantry man in 1912 it is probable that he progressed to the motor bike training. His medal card dated 22nd of August 1914 gives a Lancashire Fusiliers number 1400 and a RE number 359642 which means he was in the RE when he sailed to France . Thanks for the bike info. If you want to see the full size photo I can email it to you.
He went to France 22nd August 1914 as a Lancashire Fusilier man. His 1914 Star was issued by Lancashire Fusiliers.
His RE number is quite high. Looking for surviving records of numbers around it will give an idea when he transferred to RE from Lancashire Fusiliers.
eg
Richard Edward Martin was transferred in to RE as 359641 on 22 3 1918
William Frank Hendley was tranferred in to RE as 359649 on 19 3 1918
John William West was transferred to RE as 359647 on 23 3 1918
(these men were from diverse units, not Lanc Fus)
On the face of it then his service from Aug 1914 to March 1918 has been with Lancashire Fusiliers and that photo is dated after March 1918.
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I can make a case that he was Regular Army man with Lanc Fusiliers. Bear with me whilst I gather the info.
Was his date of birth 4 8 1896?
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Thanks Gwil, This is all new to me and I like your nice detective work with the service numbers. I suspect he took the Education with the hope of promotion but as things wound down and he was transferred to the reserves on 5th March 1919 it wasn't to be. I have a couple of interesting documents. (1) a Duty certificate with another number 2304555 with the Rank of Signalman, Unit-F comp.Signal Training centre Royal Corps Signals covering 27th March 1921 to 10th june 1921 and transferred to the reserves that date. 92) a Memorandum from the army pay office saying his service will expire 26th March 1929. (He was married in 1923)
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Ken has indicated either on this thread or the other one that he enlisted in the Militia 16 1 1908 as 3133. His age was given as 18 yrs (no months)
His record reads
5th Bn Attested 13 1 1908
Joined Depot 17 1 1908 - 5 3 1908 (49 days)
Joined Lanc Fus 6 3 1908
Going to Paul Nixons excellent Army numbering site
http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.co.uk/2009/07/lancashire-fusiliers-regular.html
1305 joined on 19th August 1907
1486 joined on 11th May 1908
1793 joined on 2nd January 1909
2015 joined on 8th February 1910
Therefore 1400 looks a nice fit for March 1908 I'd say.
(Read the blog to understand why such a low number was allocated in 1908. They had had to start all over again from 1 in about 1903)
{ Whilst I remember , where is he in the 1911 census? Should be in a barracks somewhere. }
Him being a Regular Army man explains why he went to France within a couple of weeks of outset of war.
Him being a Regular Army man explains this quote of yours
" His discharge certificate says that he served 11 years and 1 month with the colours and 11 months with the reserve. "
That is to say, in 1908 he'd have signed up for 12 years (5 with colours, 7 with Reserves or is it the other way round) The war of course interferred with his time on Reserves if indeed he went into Reserves
The reason I asked about his date of birth was because there is a G Ritson with the date of birth 4 8 1896 and an RE post war number in the list of files held at the MoD. I now realise it cannot be your George not least because he'd have been 8 yrs old enlisting in 1908!
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Ah, I see that you have his post 1920 number.
The one I'd seen was 1926360.
I see that that number of yours is in the block allocated to RE Engineers.
Have a read of this regarding the 1920 Army renumbering excercise.
http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/new-british-army-numbers-issued-in-1920/
I can't see that number in the aforementioned list but it may be well worth your while seeing if the MoD have his file. You might drop lucky and the WW1 stuff showing his movements will be with them. It takes time I'm told (some say about 12 months)
Here's the link (scroll to relevant section)
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/requests-for-personal-data-and-service-records
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George Ritson was born 29th December 1890 this means he joined the regiment when he was 17 years 4 months. I suppose he lied about his age. I can't find him in the 1911 census using Find my past, ancestry.com and other sites.
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As Gwil says he went to France while with the Lancashire Fusiliers. Also, six digit numbers were not issued until March 1917.
Ken
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On the back of the photograph my father has written-"my Dad after his battalion was wiped out" I know this may be an inaccurate statement but any comments would be welcome.
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Probably correct.
Can you ascertain from the back whether to photo was taken in the UK or France ?
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It says Carte Postale so it must be France
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So taken in France.
The reference to being wiped out may refer to the 1916 Somme offensive where 2/Batt. LF were involved from day one.
Looking at the list of Officer casualties they must have had a huge number of OR casualties.
They were also involved at Passchendaele so he may be referring to that but I don't think the casualty rate was as high.
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Thanks Jim, I will check that out. As he wrote on the back of the Thrid Class Certificate about his exploits on the 126th August 1914 up to October that would suggest he got that certificate before coming to France. That may have played a part in his transfer to the RE to be a dispatch rider. He may have had training in England as he already had the training for mounted infantry in 1912. Everyone here has helped me understand both my grandfather and also why my Dad joined the territorial army and served for 11 years reaching sargent.
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I'm pretty sure he did have pre war training. He may have owned his own machine.
Generally the RE only took men with pre war skills or expertise although there are exceptions to that.
It makes sense when looking for men with a particular skill to look inside their own Division first.
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I have a memorandum from the Regtl paymaster (R.C. of Signals) Chatham dated 16th April 1929 saying that your service will expire 26th April 1929. Does this mean that he continued in the reserves by re-enlisting. The I/D # is Dr/14
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By 1929 he'd served his complete term so no Reserves.
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Sorry Jim I meant that as his 12 years was up in 1920 I didn't understand the 1929 reference.
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You might like to download the relevant war diaries to give a flavour of his war.
2nd Bn LF (three date periods) at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/C4554658
4 Div Signals Company RE (5 date periods) at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/C4554622
All on Ancestry if you have a sub.
While war diaries of infantry units seldom mention other ranks by name, smaller units such as a Sigs Coy sometimes do, You may also find reference to reinforcements to the Sigs Coy from LF in mid/late 1916 (relating to the comment about "after the battalion was wiped out" which jim1 suggest may date to mid 1916).
maxD
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Had a look at the diary Max & no mention of movement of OR's up to March 1918.
Just re-read this:
92) a Memorandum from the army pay office saying his service will expire 26th March 1929.
I took this as him staying on for his full term of 21 years.
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jim1 LF and RE diaries?
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LF. I haven't found 4 Div. Signals on Ancestry but 4th Div. RE only refers to the 7th. & 9th. Coys. from what I've seen so far.
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Diaries - Royal Engineers - 4th Div (above 50th!!!) - piece 1471 1-6 at the bottom.
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Nothing of note in the 4th. Div. HQ. diaries.
For the RE Signals you found there is this entry:
10/2/18 Riding school commenced at transport lines for Sappers & Drivers.
This continued until around mid March then nothing about where the men went except about a week later it says that the Signals school was closed & the men went back to their units.
There was a wireless school running along side it but not sure which it refers to.
That only leaves 10 & 11 Bde. diaries.
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Of interest perhaps http://www.lancs-fusiliers.co.uk/tourspostings/2LFToursPostings.htm
maxD
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maxD your tour posting information adds a lot to the overall picture. Thanks for everyones help.