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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: jnoone on Friday 16 September 16 14:02 BST (UK)
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Hi
I am trying to research the following John Garvey aged 6 living at 17 Portland Place on the 1911 census.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Rotunda/Portland_Place_North/32430/
I have found a birth which for him 12th January 1905 Which gives his parents as John Garvey and Mary Nulty.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/395e623175750
I am trying to find a marriage for the parents I cannot find them on either census and as they are not on the 1911 census with their son I have been looking for death records for them.Any ideas ?
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Hi, like yourself i cant find anything on the parents,have you tried tracing his two aunts?
Ellen McDonnell and Margaret Nolan.
Margaret was married to Thomas Nolan a D M P policeman from Celbridge Kildare .
Thomas died 1903 at Portland Place
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1903/05672/4597541
1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Arran_Quay/Kirwan_Street/1335056/
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I was having a go at this as well, I think Margaret may be Margaret Brown.
This marriage of Thomas Brown is a policeman but I can't make out what she is.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1885/10884/5975113
I can't find a birth for the Pigott girl.
I'd be a bit suspect that she is in fact the children's aunt.
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Hi Dathai
Thanks.I d'ont think Margaret Nolan/ Ellen Mc Donnell were real aunts .If they were would it not be right to assume their maiden name would be either Nulty or Garvey.Also my main interest in this is the child named Margaret Pigott also on the 1911 census.She was the grand mother of a cousin of mine.I have found a baptism for her but no civil record. That baptism gives her parents as Laurence Pigott and Emily Curtis and again I can find no trace of them.Because of this I have started researching the other people listed on the census return.
Thomas Nolan married his wife in1885. Her maiden name was Browne
https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/a8a9760041069.
Margaret and her sister were born in Castledermot Co. Kildare and I have seen baptisms for them
Do you think that it is possible Margaret Nolan was taking in abandoned children (this might sound far fetched) and registering them under false names.
Regards John
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Do you think that it is possible Margaret Nolan was taking in abandoned children (this might sound far fetched) and registering them under false names.
Regards John
I was thinking alone the same lines. She is in the right job to come into contact with mothers in trouble.
John was born in her house, is there an address on Margaret Mary's baptism?
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Not so much far fetched but i think women who took in abandoned or unwanted illigitimate children got a small fee for looking after them so i dont see any point in her registering them in fictitious names.
Re Margaret Pigots baptism any sponsors ?
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Nolan/Browne marriage 1885
https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/a8a9760041069
i believe from the civil cert Margaret was a Milliner
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Hi
The baptism gives Margarets address as 17 Portland Place.Baptism took place in St Agathas Church North William St.One sponsor Margaret Nolan same address.I have also looked at the other child on the census return Henry Thomson
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1911/01530/1620297
Parents Robert Thomson and Maud Lee Again I can find no marriage record anywhere for this couple.
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cant find Castleview Terrace either all very sussy
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Hi Dathai
Thanks again to yourself and Sinann for looking at this.Yes it is a bit mysterious I agree with what Dathai said regarding fictitious names Why would Margaret Nolan not just use her own married name or her maiden name which were much more common.I too have tried to find that address (Castleview Terrace) without success.
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Fathers usually register the births but looks like the mothers of children born at Margaret's address are doing it. Why? because Daddy wasn't there.
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Hi Sinnann
Not sure if it was usual for the father to register births. If you take the example of the Henry Thomson birth; all of the other births on the page are registered by the childs mother.I think 17 Portland Place was being used as a kind of unofficial nursing home for unmarried mothers.The thing about this is I can find little or no information on either the fathers or mothers.Margaret Pigotts parents were given as Laurence and Mary Curtis.I can only find one Laurence Pigott living in Dublin at the time and he does not look correct and I can find no trace of the mother Emily Curtis.
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A few bits from newspapers. There are loads of adverts between about 1905 and 1917 reading:
Patients received into nurses home, attended during confinement. Terms Moderate. Nurse nolan, 17 Portland Place.
Also Wednesday 22 August 1906 Ellen McDonnell gave evidence into the death of 2 year months old Mary Kavanagh "a nurse child" who died the previous Monday. She says the mother of the child gave birth at her house and the child was healthy. Later Ellen McDonnell had answered a newspaper advert placed by a woman named HILL of 41 Patrick street who was looking for a child to nurse or adopt. The mother and McDonnell decided to place the baby with Mrs Hill for 1 month and the mother paid 14s. later Mrs Hill said the child was doing "splendidly" and the mother decided to pay a further £6 for the adoption. The inquest found that the child had died of natural causes.
also Ellen McDonnell (widow of John McDonnell of Leinster St) died 1924
edited to correct age of Mary Kavanagh
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Well that put the speculation to rest.
I guess the question now is are the fathers' names made up, or made up in some cases, are the mothers' name correct, or correct in some cases?
There is a Maud Lee aged 13 in Cork in 1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/Youghal_Urban/North_Main_Street/1161220/
is this Maud Thompson 23 from Cork in 1911.
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Birth of the child Mary Kavanagh at 17 Portland Place. Father is named and then crossed out (John Walsh)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/b08d922704214
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Hi
Again thanks.A few things have been cleared up.I now know its going to be very difficult to find the parents of Margaret Pigott.Hasta may I ask where you sourced the newspaper records.Its something I would like to look at myself.
John
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Hi John
The newspaper records were from https://www.irishnewsarchive.com which is a subscription site. Do you have Margaret Pigott's marriage cert - wondering what she knew about her parentage.
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Hi
Thanks Hasta I will subscribe to that site.Margaret Pigott left Ireland for Australia in 1925.She returned to Dublin in 1931 She married in1937.Her fathers name given as Lawrence Pigott,Occupation Teacher .Witnesses to the marriage were two members of her husbands family.
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may be of interest to you see reply 26 on this topic today
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=683526.18
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Hi
Thanks Dathai that is interesting.One thing I forget to say was when I was researching this was I looked at census return for Portland Place in 1901.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Rotunda/Portland_Place_North/1331681/
Maybe just a coincidence that there were people with the surname Curtis living there.I have treid without success to look at this family to see if there was a possible connection to Margaret Pigotts mother Emily Curtis.Also the head of family was a policeman like Margaret Nolans husband Thomas.
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stumbled on another dodgy one while researching someone else
Arthur Jones 22 Sep 1905 son of Arthur and Johanna Heffernan 17 Portland Place
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1905/01763/1694319
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died in December age 2 months son of a domestic servant from 5 First Avenue which to the best of my knowledge is off Sarsfield Road,Ballyfermot known as the Ranch
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1905/05580/4567306
edited to add
buried in Glasnevin
http://www.glasnevintrust.ie/genealogy/results/index.xml
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some nurse children there in 1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/New_Kilmainham/First_Avenue/1289729/
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Mary Kathleen Dempsey 1905
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1905/01763/1694327
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and this is just 1905 i wonder how many?
James Warren
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1905/01763/1694329
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I don't see a matching death for a John Dempsey groom in 1905, or even '04.
Or a James Warren.
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Hi Dathai
One thing that came to mind was when I seen that Heffernan surname was when I looked for Emily Curtis the only one I could find was married to a man named Richard Heffernan who came from Celbridge (same birth place as Margaret Nolans husband)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1892/10624/5870837
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Kildare/Donaghcumper/Donaghcumper/1436662/
This may be just a coincidence but looks very strange.
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Margaret Pigotts parents were given as Laurence and Mary Curtis.I can only find one Laurence Pigott living in Dublin at the time and he does not look correct and I can find no trace of the mother Emily Curtis.
What about this Laurence Pigott puts you off him as a candidate for Margaret Pigott's father
I find it odd that if names were being made up that someone would choose such unusual names. Same with Emily Curtis and Maud Lee. Why wouldn't you just use John Byrne Mary Murphy etc.
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Hi Hasta
I agree if they were trying to hide something why not just use common names.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Arran_Quay/Church_St__Upper/1277966/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Arran_Quay/Church_Street/32777/
This Laurence Pigott died 1913. Occupation carman C'ant be 100% sure its not him but I think its unlikely
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I think the woman are telling as much truth as they can, it's the being married and he is dead stuff they are fibbing about.
That's what I'd do it I was them.
Pregnant with some married man's child or similar situation, buy a wedding ring, head up to Dublin to Margaret Nolan's, have the baby, register it, leave it with Margaret, she finds it a home. You go get yourself a job somewhere in Dublin, you may be paying for the child's care depending how things work out. Might even get it back if you find an understanding husband, pretend he's a widower. No one at home is any the wiser (or pretends not to be).
Sad and all as this is, it's better than years later ending up with the nuns.
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Hello
John Garvey is my maternal Grandfather. I've not been able to trace his parents or any siblings. Any help would be appreciated.