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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: loobylooayr on Thursday 15 September 16 23:35 BST (UK)
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Hi all,
This photograph was found in amongst family photos belong to my late mother.
The photographer was Hector MacDonald of Kilmarnock , Ayrshire and I suspect the photograph may have been taken in the Kilmarnock area.
But who are these men? They appear to be wearing varied headgear. Not being any sort of military expert I cannot tell what kind of soldiers these men are. Can anyone tell me which regiment they belong to......a big ask , I know ??
Any suggestions or input welcome.
I cannot think who from my family is in this photograph.
Cheers,
Looby
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The decoration in the centre of the hats is specific to one or more Scots regiments. Could you possibly enlarge one section of the photo please?
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Trying to upload photo the right way up. ;D
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Hi,
Cameronians I think...
David
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Hi,
Cameronians I think...
David
Thanks for your reply David.
Cameronians ? Well that's a surprise ! I know of no-one in my family who was in that regiment.
Looby ;D
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I wonder if the strap diagonal over their chests is the strap for their gas masks? Could the photo have been taken in either 1939 or 1940 just before they embarked for France?
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Looby,
I wonder if the photo was taken outside a Barracks or elsewhere?
"photographer was Hector MacDonald of Kilmarnock"
Who appears to have been around in the 1940's so a WW2 pic possibly?
May have been a friend of the family in the pic?
I wonder if anyone recognises the building in the background which may help identify something/someone, a reason for the pic being in your family collection?
Annie
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I think it is the Royal Scots Fusiliers, some are wearing a Tam o Shanter (TOS) cap and other are wearing what looks like a army side cap with the same RSF flaming grenade badge, the side cap may be a Glengarry but detail is obscured and if it was a Glengarry it would have diced band around.
Their main depot area was the Churchill Barracks in Ayr (renamed after Winston in 1942) now demolished.
James
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Hi Annie
Yes Hector MacDonald was a photographer in Kilmarnock at the time of WW2 and in fact their was a Hector MacDonald camera/photography shop in the town until fairly recently.
I have also wondered about the building in the background and my immediate thoughts were that it reminded me of the school building of Kilmarnock Academy...however on looking at images I have ruled that out.
As to why my mother had this photo .....her own father did serve in WW2 and to be honest never really spoke about his time in the forces. We don't know which regiment he served in but from what we do know we believe he was in the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers. His war was spent in Devon constructing sea defences and building docks. We cannot spot him in the photo
My late father's father was in a reserved occupation - he was a railway worker - and was never called up. We have a vague memory that he may and I stress may have been involved in something like the TA or Home Guard. There is a face in the crowd which looks suspiciously like him , but he was definitely not a regular soldier.
Thanks for your input Annie
Looby :)
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I think it is the Royal Scots Fusiliers, some are wearing a Tam o Shanter (TOS) cap and other are wearing what looks like a army side cap with the same RSF flaming grenade badge, the side cap may be a Glengarry but detail is obscured and if it was a Glengarry it would have diced band around.
Their main depot area was the Churchill Barracks in Ayr (renamed after Winston in 1942) now demolished.
James
Thank you James,
That 's interesting. I had thought because a Kilmarnock photographer had been used that the location was Kilmarnock , but of course it is perfectly feasible that the location is in Ayr.
I didn't know there were barracks - the Churchill Barracks - in Ayr :o and now I'm going to try and find images of that.
The Royal Fusiliers - that's very interesting too. Thanks for the cap information. It's such a shame the photo can't be enlarged to show sufficient detail .
Many thanks again for giving me more to investigate ,
Looby :)
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Not Royal Fusiliers..............Royal Scots Fusiliers, one of the largest Fusilier Badges
There would always be a photographer near a military installation/barracks who would travel to the barracks to take photgraphs of passing out parades,cadre courses etc.
James
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I think they are definitely side caps and NOT glengarrys. The glengarry would have a bobble on the top similar to the TOS. They also appear to have piping and buttons at the front
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I wasn't sure at first now agree, not Glengarry bonnet no wee red tourie on it, the "piping" is two buttons that hold the ear flaps on the hat.
I wonder if it is a Home Guard unit, usually they came last in the queue for equipment and uniform hence the mix of head wear.
James
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I wonder if it is a Home Guard unit, usually they came last in the queue for equipment and uniform hence the mix of head wear.
James
That's a good point, all of the men appear to be of various age, some look to old for service :-\
also the man sat dead center on the front row (the one who looks to be in charge) is wearing what looks like WWI medal ribbons.
Frank.
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"Their main depot area was the Churchill Barracks in Ayr (renamed after Winston in 1942)"
Possibly the photo was to celebrate the above?
Not much help of course ;)
Annie
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Not Royal Fusiliers..............Royal Scots Fusiliers, one of the largest Fusilier Badges
There would always be a photographer near a military installation/barracks who would travel to the barracks to take photgraphs of passing out parades,cadre courses etc.
James
Ooops sorry James, my silly mistake. I was typing in a hurry because I was due out the door in 10 minutes to make an appointment.
Frank and James - your comments regarding the mixture of headwear , the appearance of "older" men and the older man in charge - are very interesting. A Home Guard unit could be a strong possibility then. I now need to make enquiries of surviving family members to find out if my paternal grandfather was involved with the Home Guard.
Funnily enough on looking with a magnifying glass again I see a man who looks very like my great-grandfather too !!
I know Dad's Army portrays the Home Guard as having very old men in it's ranks - Fraser, Jones and Godfrey - but was there an age limit as too how old a man could be ?
Looby :)
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BW252 , thanks for your comment and for clarifying the side caps.
Scouseboy, sorry I missed your comments earlier. I will try to enlarge one area of photo but to be honest I think it loses focus and detail . You could be right about it being a unit being photographed before leaving for overseas. But I am now considering more the Home Guard. Thanks for you help !
Looby :)
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Hi all,
After researching and looking for images of Churchill Barracks, Ayr online I have come to the conclusion that my photo was not taken there.
I then started looking at images of large existing buildings in Ayr & Kilmarnock. My original gut feeling was that the building reminded me of Kilmarnock Academy - but it isn't.
However a further search led me to this https://www.east-ayrshire.gov.uk/Resources/Image/H/Hurlford-PS-03.08-4.JPG
I now believe the photo was taken outside Hurlford School which is still open today as Hurlford Primary school. Hurlford is a small town just a mile or so from Kilmarnock.
Can others see the similarities between building in the two images please? Or do I need to move this to another board for this help?
If it is Hurlford School, why would these soldiers be gathered there for a photograph?
Any comments welcome please,
Looby ;D
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Well done, it looks like a dead ringer to me, take the profile detail of the left hand side of the building, the attachment with the sloping roof and two small windows draw the outline and compare with the original pic you posted - identical.
If it was a school in ww2 perhaps it was commandeered by HM Government for a military purpose.
James
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Thank you for confirming my find James.
I am now convinced that my grandfather and possibly my great grandfather are in this picture. Both stayed in Hurlford. I think it may be a Home Guard unit ?
My grandfather was in reserved occupation and my great-grandfather would be too old to serve otherwise.
Hurlford School remained open as a school throughout WW2 - my father went to school there. So why this picture was taken in front of it may remain a mystery
Thanks again,
Looby :)
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The school I attended in the 70s was turned into a military hospital during WW2 and the pupils evacuated further north away from the danger areas of the docks and factories. Perhaps Hurlford was commandeered as suggested for a military purpose too.
RRTB
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The school I attended in the 70s was turned into a military hospital during WW2 and the pupils evacuated further north away from the danger areas of the docks and factories. Perhaps Hurlford was commandeered as suggested for a military purpose too.
RRTB
Thanks for your input RRTB -
Hurlford school may have been used in the evenings or weekends for parading/ exercises - as you say many buildings were requisitioned .
However I do know that my late father attended this school from age 5 in 1940 until he left the school at age 15. It was the only school my father ever attended. I can't imagine that it was used during school hours as a military base .
I have now managed to contact a relative who has confirmed that my father's father and grandfather , both Hurlford residents, were in the Home Guard. We have both identified the same 2 men.
I am very happy to have solved this query and thank everyone for their help and comments
Cheers, Looby :)
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From The Daily Record dated 11 Oct 1940.
"Members of The Home Guard are to be given the use of Ayrshire Schools during the winter months and they will be admitted to keep fit classes organised by the Education Authority without the payment of fees"
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From The Daily Record dated 11 Oct 1940.
"Members of The Home Guard are to be given the use of Ayrshire Schools during the winter months and they will be admitted to keep fit classes organised by the Education Authority without the payment of fees"
Thanks for that anne_p -
I wonder where the children were taught during the winter months.....unless the Home Guard requisition was for evenings/weekend. My father certainly never mentioned going to school anywhere else. Neither did my mother. Of course many of these men would have daytime/shift employment. Both my grandfather and great-grandfather were railwaymen and worked throughout the war.
Looby :)
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Looby,
Great you & relative have identified both same people which is encouraging for you.
Is it possible the school had an "Annexe" where the soldiers would have stayed?
You may get info. at the local Library or even from Ayr Council?
Annie