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General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: Honor on Thursday 15 September 16 20:14 BST (UK)
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There are several male ancestors that I cannot even find a birth record for, no matter how hard I search. My great great grandfather John Thomas Horton was born around 1862 in Brixham and I always wondered why there doesn't seem to a record of his birth. My grandmother recently confided that she thinks he was illegitimate, going by things she overheard her mother and aunt talking to each other about when she was young. It all made sense when she said that.
When do you realise that you're probably dealing with an illegitimacy?
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When do you realise that you're probably dealing with an illegitimacy?
For me its usually when I cant find a birth or baptism - particularly where the age of the child on the census appears to pre-date, or be extremely close to, the marriage.
Have you looked for a birth registered under his mother's maiden name?
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His birth might not have been registered. Can you find him on 1871 census?
Nanny Jan
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Birth registration was not compulsory until 1875, from 1837 to 1874 the registrar toured the district getting notes on new births and even in rural areas, some were missed, or even if they were registered, some may have not made it to the GRO index. Have you tried the local RO for John Thomas Horton's birth? Have you got his mum's maiden name, such as her marriage cert?
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Birth registration was not compulsory until 1875,
Birth Registration compulsion
Under the 1836 Registration Act, Section XVIII, registration was compulsory in the case of the Registrar. The onus was on him to collect births and deaths. In carrying out his duties the parents were compelled, under the Act, Section XX, to supply the information when asked. The Act states the parent or occupier 'shall' give information to the Registrar on a birth 'upon being requested to do so.' In official documents 'shall' means compulsion. The reason why it is thought that registration was not compulsory is that in Section XIX the act states that the “Father or Mother of any Child ........ may*, within forty-two Days next after the Day of such Birth or within Five Days after the Day of such Death respectively, give Notice of such Birth or Death to the Registrar of the District;" In this context may means to have the opportunity, or be permitted by circumstances not to wait for the registrar, but to go to him to register the birth, or death, not the option to register the birth or not. If the birth was not registered within forty-two days there was also a fee of two Shillings and Sixpence entitlement for the Superintendent Registrar, and five shillings for the registrar, Section XXII. The registrar was also paid for every entry of birth and deaths, Section XXIX, two shillings and sixpence each for the first twenty entries, and one shilling for every subsequent entry of Births or Deaths in each Year. This gave him the incentive to make sure he carried his duties. Under sections XXI and XXVI, births and deaths at sea on a British Vessel, registration is compulsory.
*May = to have the potentiality to, be at liberty to, be permitted by circumstances to.
http://www.histpop.org/ohpr/servlet/View?path=Browse/Legislation%20(by%20date)&active=yes&mno=4044
Under the 1836 act there was no penalty for non-registration of a birth. A penalty not exceeding £2 was introduced in Section 39 of the 1874 Registration of Births & Deaths Act, for the non-registration of a birth (the wording of the Act is actually for “failing to give information concerning the birth…….. as required by the said Acts”).
Stan
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The absence of information proves only that - the absence of information. The reason may be illegitimacy, but that can only be proved by some other evidence. Illegitimate children did not necessarily adopt their 'step'father's surname. And births were not necessarily registered, though people commonly thought baptism was an acceptable substitute. A gt-gt-aunt of mine was in the 1851 census in Devon but cannot be found in the birth registers, and she certainly was not illegitimate.
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Have you considered that he might have been registered as Thomas John rather than John Thomas? It's not too unusual to find that first and middle names were swapped.
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Hi Honor,
As Ruskie mentioned he may have reversed his name (more common than you'd expect)
Closest I could find was;
Thomas John Norton
Christened 18 Jan 1863
TOPSHAM,DEVON,ENGLAND
Father John Isaacs Richards Norton
Mother Sarah Ann
It would have been an idea to state where you acquired the circa date for John Thomas' birth?
Was it from census/marriage/death?
If census, was he with parents or was this post marriage?
If post marriage, he may not have been sure of his place of birth although probably "somewhere" in Devon as his parents may have moved while he was young & he assumed that was where he was born?
I did a quick search for Devon, 1860 - 1866 (surnames may give a clue if he was illegitimate)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ihq/
Annie
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Do you have his marriage certificate? If so, was a father mentioned on that?
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Doesn't help with his birth registration but on later census he gives his occupation as mariner, and there is an 1876 crew list record showing him aged 14 and an apprentice aboard the J J B, which was registered in Brixham.
I don't fully understand the merchant navy records, but it says his indenture was registered at Dartmouth 24 Feb 1876.
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Jomot,
An Indenture would be a contract such as an apprenticeship which you mentioned.
Annie
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Hi Annie
Thanks, yes, I understood that bit and also the voyage details, but Seaweed usually manages to extract nuggets that don't mean anything to most of us - that's what I was referring to by not fully understanding the records.
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Ahh, I see Jomot but more info. from Honor would have been good too.
We need help to help others.
Annie
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I may be way off the mark here but things do not seem to add up.
There is a previous post by the OP here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=755335.msg6048149#msg6048149
Then there is this marriage:
Name: John Thomas Horton
Registration Year: 1891
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration district: Totnes
Parishes for this Registration District: View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District
Inferred County: Devon
Volume: 5b
Page: 341
Records on Page: Name
Sarah Jane Campin
Herbert William Dawe
John Thomas Horton
Susan Provo
These records:
UK, Apprentices Indentured in Merchant Navy, 1824-1910
SCHOOLS, DIRECTORIES & CHURCH HISTORIES
NAME: John Thomas Horton
BIRTH: abt 1862 - Brixham
OTHER: 24 Feb 1876 - Dartmouth
UK and Ireland, Masters and Mates Certificates, 1850-1927
IMMIGRATION & TRAVEL
NAME: John Thomas Horton
BIRTH: 1863 - Brixham
CIVIL: 23 Sep 1897 – Brixham
(This is a second mate’s certificate for foreign going vessels)
1901 Census:
Burton Street, Brixham
John Horton, Head, M, 38, Mariner 2nd Mate Seas, Brixham, Devon
Fanny Horton, Wife, M, 38, Dartmouth, Devon
John T Horton, Son, 8, Brixham, Devon
Olive Horton, Daur, 5, Brixham, Devon
Ida Horton, Daur, 3, Brixham, Devon
George Horton, Son, 3, Brixham Devon
The 1911 Census shows the same family and indicates that John and Fanny had been married for 20 years.
Gail
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One to discount?
Birth registration district Plymouth (which includes Brixton) John Thomas Kurton, vol 5b page 269.
There are a few records on FreeBMD for surname Kurton but I can't see a John Kurton born Devon on the censuses.
Added: Sorry got mixed up with Brixham and Brixton
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Looks like Fanny is actually Susan Frances Provo, birth registered in 1860 in Totnes.
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http://www.best-maritime.info/catalogue_companies_list/company_source_50564_3.html
I have no idea why it is on the above link, but I found this QUOTE:
"The entries below are extracted from burial registers for the non-conformist cemetery, Higher Brixham. The registers covering the period 1886 to 1949 are kept in the Museum archives and are indexed on our database. The information given is : date name age & address.
17/05/24 FRANCES SUSAN HORTON 64 DREW ST 45
13/01/40 JOHN THOMAS HORTON 77 PAIGNTON "
The point being..... have you searched non-conformist baptisms? (This might not be your chap though, because if he was 77 yrs in 1940 he would not have been born around 1876.)
Also, I have numbers of Brixham mariner people who did not baptise their babies in Brixham as the family "followed" the fish and were often away for months at a time in e.g. Tenby or Ramsgate.
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The point being..... have you searched non-conformist baptisms? (This might not be your chap though, because if he was 77 yrs in 1940 he would not have been born around 1876.)
I thought census information indicated birth around 1862/3
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The point being..... have you searched non-conformist baptisms? (This might not be your chap though, because if he was 77 yrs in 1940 he would not have been born around 1876.)
I thought census information indicated birth around 1862/3
Ooops. I had the apprentice docs year [1876] in my mind. :-[
So this non-conformist burial could actually be the correct chap!!
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Name: John T Horton
Birth Date: abt 1863
Date of Registration: Mar 1940
Age at Death: 77
Registration district: Totnes
Inferred County: Devon
Volume: 5b
Page: 618
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Hi all,
Thanks for all the help, my grandma's pretty certain that he was illegitimate but I suppose that doesn't account for the supposed absence of a birth record ??? I don't know what his mother was called but my grandma is under the impression that John's mother was a maid that had a baby with her employer, whose surname was Adams ???
John married my great great grandmother Frances Provo and she is later known as "Fanny Horton", I've managed to trace her family line back but have always drawn a blank with John. I'm still waiting for a copy of their marriage certificate to arrive so that I can see if it sheds any light on who the father was
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The point being..... have you searched non-conformist baptisms? (This might not be your chap though, because if he was 77 yrs in 1940 he would not have been born around 1876.)
I thought census information indicated birth around 1862/3
Ooops. I had the apprentice docs year [1876] in my mind. :-[
So this non-conformist burial could actually be the correct chap!!
Sorry everyone, I'm just reading all of the comments, please bear with me
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I may be way off the mark here but things do not seem to add up.
There is a previous post by the OP here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=755335.msg6048149#msg6048149
Then there is this marriage:
Name: John Thomas Horton
Registration Year: 1891
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration district: Totnes
Parishes for this Registration District: View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District
Inferred County: Devon
Volume: 5b
Page: 341
Records on Page: Name
Sarah Jane Campin
Herbert William Dawe
John Thomas Horton
Susan Provo
These records:
UK, Apprentices Indentured in Merchant Navy, 1824-1910
SCHOOLS, DIRECTORIES & CHURCH HISTORIES
NAME: John Thomas Horton
BIRTH: abt 1862 - Brixham
OTHER: 24 Feb 1876 - Dartmouth
UK and Ireland, Masters and Mates Certificates, 1850-1927
IMMIGRATION & TRAVEL
NAME: John Thomas Horton
BIRTH: 1863 - Brixham
CIVIL: 23 Sep 1897 – Brixham
(This is a second mate’s certificate for foreign going vessels)
1901 Census:
Burton Street, Brixham
John Horton, Head, M, 38, Mariner 2nd Mate Seas, Brixham, Devon
Fanny Horton, Wife, M, 38, Dartmouth, Devon
John T Horton, Son, 8, Brixham, Devon
Olive Horton, Daur, 5, Brixham, Devon
Ida Horton, Daur, 3, Brixham, Devon
George Horton, Son, 3, Brixham Devon
The 1911 Census shows the same family and indicates that John and Fanny had been married for 20 years.
Gail
Hi, sorry for the confusion, Susan Frances Provo was later known as Frances Susan Provo and then when married she was known as Fanny Horton. I know that John was definitely in the marines or the navy, confusingly his son with Frances/Fanny was also called John and was also in the Navy
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No problem Honor, I realised that when I found her birth registration ;D
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I found that one of my great grandfathers was illegitimate when I got his marriage certificate. It said so in the place where fathers name would be.
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I found that one of my great grandfathers was illegitimate when I got his marriage certificate. It said so in the place where fathers name would be.
Hi guys,
I have the marriage certificate and apparently John's father was also called John Horton and was a valet ???
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John Horton is easily found on 1939 register (confirmed by family members he is living with) - so you can find his dob
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Probably completely unconnected but there's a John Horton age 8 with his uncle William J Hockaday age 35 and his wife Harriet age 33 in Chertsey, Surrey. William Hockaday is born in Tavistock, Harriet in St Germans Cornwall and John Horton in Plymouth (so that's a bit out). John's age would be right for someone born in 1862 - later than census day - or early 1863.
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in my case when it said so on the baptism certificate for one