RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: lemming23 on Sunday 11 September 16 19:10 BST (UK)
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Hi,
This is obviously a long shot as we have very little to go on!
Joseph Richard Bottrell died 1946, Kingsford and he left a living daughter and 2 sons who had died previously. We hope to find the sons.
They do not appear on any census material I can find nor are they referenced in any newspaper articles (although their parents are.) I haven't found any baptism details either. His wife Selina Eliza died 1928 in Woollahra and it's likely that the children were born between 1900-1915 at the latest. I think they probably died as infants.
Newspaper articles show that the family were living in Leeton from at least 1916 to 1925. I don't know where they were prior to this.
Can anyone provide any leads?
Many thanks for your time,
Lemming
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I can't see births in NSW or VIC.
Did they immigrate, if so do you have passenger lists for them?
Did the mention of sons come from a parent death certificate?
You may already know: Joseph and Selina are buried at At Eastern Suburbs cemetery.
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Hi,
The information concerning the sons comes from Joseph's death certificate.
Yes, they emigrated in April 1898 sailing from Plymouth on the Oruba to Melbourne and then to Sydney, ticketted to Adelaide, and no I didn't know of the cemetery they were buried - so many thanks!
They were living in S. Wales, UK at the time, married there in 1890, but there were no births recorded in Wales so I'm surmising that the sons must have been born in Australia. Have you any further information regarding the burials of Selina and Joseph? Or any suggestions as to where I might go next?
Lemming
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Elizabeth Selina Bottrell: 18-9-1928 AA7 Anglican FM A7 Position 82
Joseph Richard: 23-9- 1946, as above
Joseph funeral notice: http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ig8/
JR obit: http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ig9/
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Eliza's death notice:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article16495511
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There was fire at their cottage in Leeton in 1927. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article156548782
Ros
adding : the coroner was involved in the enquiry - could the boys have been killed in the fire?
No the house was unoccupied http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article156550029
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Were the boys mentioned on ES' death cert, also?
J.
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The reason you cannot find census records is simply that these were not retained after the Bureau of Statistics had collated the details they required.
There are electoral rolls, with some that have been uploaded to various commercial websites.
From the NSW ER 1913, in the electorate of MURRUMBIDGEE, and polling at North Yanko :
Eliza Selina BOTTRELL, of Leeton, domestic duties
Joseph BOTTRELL, of Leeton, engine driver. (no middle name for Joseph)
It was not compulsory to enrol, but you needed to be 21 years of age, a local resident, and a British Subject to be eligible.
JM
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Previous thread:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=570405.0
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NSW 1935 ER WAVERLEY, polling at Waverley (compulsory to enrol, 21 yrs & over, British Subjects)
Joseph Richard BOTTRELL, 33 Vernon Street Woollahra, no occupation recorded
NO OTHERS with that surname recorded at that polling place.
JM
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I have checked the 1902/3 NSW electoral roll for BLAND, polling at North Yanco .... no entries for BOTTRELL.
JM
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There was fire at their cottage in Leeton in 1927. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article156548782
Ros
adding : the coroner was involved in the enquiry - could the boys have been killed in the fire?
No the house was unoccupied http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article156550029
I understand that in NSW a Coroner could be appointed to enquire into the causes of fires, regardless of if there had been loss of life. The Coroner would be assessing the commercial loss, with the view to make findings for insurance.
JM
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Thanks JM :)
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Hi,
A possibility, there was a Mr and Mrs Bottrell in Piper St SBH ( probably South Broken Hill!) in July 1908.
Left hand column under 'thanks'.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/45052451?searchTerm=
Gerry
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What proof do you have that Doreen b. 1919 was their daughter by birth?
Eliza would have been 47-48yo in 1919 :-\
Not impossible I know. But it is possible that Doreen was adopted/fostered by them.
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How can you be sure there were no births to them in England?
They were living in Wales at the time of the 1891 census but are you sure they lived there until they emigrated in 1898?
There are a number of infant deaths on freebdm between 1890 and 1898 ie aged 0.
What details are on Eliza Selina's death certificate?
Cando
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following from Gerry's find.
NSW ER 1902/3 BARRIER, polling at Alma
Eliza Selina BOTTRELL Piper St, domestic duties
Joseph BOTTRELL, Piper St, vannerman
NO OTHERS with that surname at that polling place.
Alma is a location in Broken Hill.
http://www.abc.net.au/local/audio/2011/07/07/3263302.htm
JM
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http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/156168012 1 Oct 1946 Murrumbidgee Irrigator.
Obit for Joseph Richard BOTTRELL, listing descendants by name.
from the linked thread, joining the dots ...
I thought you'd like to know that we are now in touch with her family. Thank you very much for your help!
Lemming
JM
ADD You would need to obtain the marriage registration details to confirm who was Doreen's mum.
An Official Transcription will have the same first hand details given by the bride and groom as on a real deal cert..... NSW BDM ref 0855/1936
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There are 2 deaths in Broken Hill. Not their children, but possibly a connection.
H J Bottrell 1886 27 Dec 1896
Sarah 16 April 1899
They are not buried together and no ages listed.
Jamjar
Add: BDM has them as Bottrill.
Also, not H J, but is and I J
Sarah father John; the other, father John and mother Esther
Doreen's Engagement notice: http://www.rootschat.com/links/01igb/
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Some information gleaned from armchair searchings today, so needs validation before confirming these as part of Joseph Bottrell's family tree. (Prompted by J's finding of the engagement announcement)
at NSW BDM online for Doreen Josephine and William John's daughter, Registered Gosford.
O'NEILL Patricia Dawn,
13148/1955
and at Ryerson Index SMH 25 April 1955, late of Holgate, formerly of Kingsford, at 18 years of age.
Funeral notices for Doreen and for William:
SMH 3 Feb 1959
O’NEILL – The funeral of the late Doreen Josephine O’NEILL of Holgate, formerly of Kingsford, with leave R H Creighton’s Private Chapel, Gosford, Tomorrow (Wednesday) after service commencing at 9.30 a.m., for Point Clare Cemetery. R H CREIGHTON, Central Coast Funeral Service, Pty Ltd., Gosford. Death notice on same page mentions others, including Doreen's daughter as Patricia (deceased). NSW BDM online has indexed death registration at North Sydney for O'NEILL Doreen Josephine # 4592/1959.
SMH 23 Oct 1959
O'NEILL - The funeral of the late William John O'NEILL of Arncliffe, will leave R H Creighton's Private Chapel, Gosford, Tomorrow (Thursday) at 10 a.m., for Port Clare Cemetery ..... (Death notice on same page mentions others but not Patricia.) NSW BDM online has indexed death registration at Gosford for O'NEILL William John # 16241/1964.
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=lL5f5cZgq8MC&dat=19631024&b_mode=2&hl=en
http://ryersonindex.org/index.htm
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/family-history.aspx
JM
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Headstone photo for Doreen.
O'Neill Doreen Josephine 1917? 2 Feb 1959 41 dau/Joseph Richard & Eliza Selina Point Clare NSW Ang 9 14, 15
http://austcemindex.com/inscription?id=7772376#images
Patricia dawn is buried with a William John:
Headstone photo: http://austcemindex.com/inscription?id=21456#images
O'Neill Patricia Dawn 1937? 24 Apr 1955 18 Point Clare NSW RC 1 1, 22
O'Neill William John 21 Oct 1963 Point Clare NSW RC 1 1, 22
O'Neill John William 15 Jan 2001 Point Clare NSW RC 1 1, 22
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The Woollahra Municipal Council has a Family History section as part of the library and this section might be able to shed some light on the Bottrell's stay at Woollahra.
I have used the Family History section in the past with some great results, the staff have always been very helpful.
http://www.woollahra.nsw.gov.au/library/local_history/family_history
Gerry
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Using FreeBDM I am not seeing a marriage 1890 + / - 3 years for Joseph Richard BOTTRELL and Selina Eliza, and using variations of the name.
Using the death information for ages, Joseph Richard, 83 yrs at 1946.......~27 yrs at 1890
Selina Eliza 57 yrs at 1928..........~ 19 yrs at 1890
Could the two sons be born to Joseph, but not to Selina Eliza?
Do you have the death certificate 1928?
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Deleted as I misread.
J.
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Using FreeBDM I am not seeing a marriage 1890 + / - 3 years for Joseph Richard BOTTRELL and Selina Eliza, and using variations of the name.
Marriage:
Joseph BOTTRELL m. Eliza Selina LAMBERT
22 Feb 1890, Swansea, St John, Glamorganshire, Wales
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCYP-67C
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O'Neill Doreen Josephine 1917? 2 Feb 1959 41 dau/Joseph Richard & Eliza Selina Point Clare NSW Ang 9 14, 15
There is no birth listed in the NSW indexes 1916-1918.
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Using FreeBDM I am not seeing a marriage 1890 + / - 3 years for Joseph Richard BOTTRELL and Selina Eliza, and using variations of the name.
Marriage:
Joseph BOTTRELL m. Eliza Selina LAMBERT
22 Feb 1890, Swansea, St John, Glamorganshire, Wales
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCYP-67C
Interesting:
March quarter 1890
Joseph Bothrell and Eliza Selina Lambert Swansea 11a 883
It's definately Bothrell in the original register.
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Free BDM
Joseph BOTHRELL and Eliza Selina Lambert.
Jan-Mar 1890, Swansea, 11a, 883
Gerry
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IGI birth Joseph Richard BOTTRALL 1863 Redruth Cornwall
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On the 1891 census they are Bottrall. ;)
J.
Added: June quarter 1872 - Eliza Selina Lambert REDRUTH 5c 258
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Could this be a son for them out of wedlock, or a son of Joseph to someone else? :
March quarter 1888
Joseph Richard Bottrell PENZANCE 5C 279
Dec Quarter 1863
Joseph Richard Bottrall REDRUTH 5c 277
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This is all so helpful! And thank you for your generosity in giving this mystery your time!
I will try to answer some of your queries:
Firstly – yes – there are multiple spellings for Bottrell, my favourite being “Bothball” but “Bakaret” and even “Retallack” are possibilities! One of my great aunt has one certificate using “Bottrall” and another with “Bottrell” and then of course there’s “Bottrill” and “Boterel”. Surprisingly, a more unusual name can make things more difficult not less!
Joseph Bottrell (b 1863 Redruth) was my great uncle and I’m collaborating with my Australian cousin to try to understand the story. We do think it likely that Doreen was adopted but she very probably didn’t know that she was adopted and so her marriage certificate might well reflect her mother’s name as she knew it, ie Eliza Selina (known as Selina). I don’t believe my cousin has Selina’s death certificate but it might well mirror Joseph’s death certificate and report all 3 children as theirs, adopted or not, which takes me to the excellent point that maybe Joseph had been married before. However, I can find no earlier marriage for him either in Cornwall nor in Wales. (The rest of his siblings moved from Cornwall to S.Wales between 1888-1891 so I’m thinking that Cornwall is far more likely for an earlier marriage.) I investigated the possibility of Joseph R b1888 Penzance being a son but it appears from his will in 1949 that he was the son of Charles Thomas Bottrell (a different family).
I also looked again at other Welsh possibilities. Selina returned on a visit in Nov 1900 and was still in Wales in 1901 in time for the census, living with Joseph’s father and daughter, but there aren’t any births/deaths of infants recorded at this time in the Swansea/Neath area.
I don’t think that any other of Joseph’s immediate family emigrated to Australia, although his mother was a Mutton and she had relatives who went to the Bathurst area, and Selina had a nephew, William Philp, and an aunt Mary Ann Seymour, who had emigrated prior to her own emigration.
So – we don’t seem to be able to find the boys in New South Wales! There should be records of births surely as well as deaths, even if they were still-born? So I’m now thinking that either they were also adopted or they were born in S. Australia (the family were ticketed for Adelaide and Selina departed from Adelaide when she made her return visit, so it’s possible the family started off there before moving to NSW.) Or am I giving up on the NSW front too easily?
Do I need to start new threads to ask about how to find out about adoption in NSW early 20th century and to find out if anyone can help re the S. Australia possibility?
I’ll share your findings with my cousin and suggest that he asks for Doreen’s marriage certificate and also Selina’s death certificate. If we discover what happened, I will let you know.
Many thanks again,
Lemming
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NSM BDM marriage
10855 / 1936 BOTTRELL Doreen Josephine Lincoln m. O'NEILL John William @ Waverley
The LINCOLN name might be worth following. Doreen's marriage certificate would give her birthplace, and witnesses names might be useful.
Death certificate for Selina would indicate if Doreen is accounted for at that time.
It is possible that Doreen knew she was not born to the BOTTRELLs and might have had an unrecorded, informal, attachment to them. They might have been the closest she had to a family, acknowledged that role in her life, and knew they were not her parents.
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I don't think you need to start new threads for look ups in Australia for this family, but you need to recognise that in Australia there's eight different jurisdictions. So there's no central BDM registry. On top of that, each of those jurisdictions has their own regulations that restrict public access to non historic registrations.
For example, in NSW, access to the online index for
births is restricted for the first 100 years,
deaths is restricted for the first 30 years,
marriages is restricted for the first 50 years.
Other states/territories have different 'years' for those restrictions.
Formal adoptions in NSW do not commence until 1920s, (December 1923) and many families raised "Foster" children. In the pre WWI era, in NSW, sometimes the fostered children were family members, sometimes they were informal placements organised through Benevolent Societies, including Lodges. Sometimes children were 'boarded out' via formal placements arranged by government, sometimes children were lodged with individuals (so someone paid someone else to care for their child for short term and also for long term placements).
It is possible that the 1936 marriage registration will have clues to show what Doreen knew, or at least what Doreen was willing to share about her origins. The official transcription will have all the same information as the real deal certificate. It will be transcribed by well qualified, experienced people with quality knowledge about the NSW BDM administrative system from that era.
JM
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Nothing for your couple in South Australia. It is possible that as Joseph's occupation was smelter on the passenger list they first went to Kadina, Wallaroo, Moonta area of South Australia. This area of copper mining attracted many Cornish miners and smelters to South Australia. Around the turn of the century there was a migration of miners etc from that area of South Australia to the developing mines in Broken Hill. There is quite a lot of history about these areas on the net.
Cando
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I did work alongside a fellow named Frank BOTTERILL during the 1950's in NSW.
Probably doesn't help much except the variant surname.
Joe
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Hi all,
Again - many thanks. I tried to find Joseph Bottrell in S.A and found one, a miner in Moonta which interested me for a while, until I realised it was an entirely different Josph Bottrell!
The couple must have moved to Broken Hill about 1901/2 so the time-slot in S.A would have been very narrow.
We'll have to wait a while to apply for Doreen's birth certificate and hope that that will give some further information. It seems that it will be very difficult to find her natural parents but I agree the name "Lincoln" may well be significant as it isn't a family name in Joseph's or Selina's family so it might well provide an important lead.
Lemming