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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Staffordshire => Topic started by: pollux83 on Tuesday 06 September 16 16:22 BST (UK)
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I'm trying (without success) to identify the ancestry, plus any siblings, of Clara Jane Shipley. According to the 1911 census she was born in Dudley which, I understand, was in Staffordshire at that time.
She married George Josiah Hawker at St James Church, Ashted, Birmingham, on 8 Sept 1906. The certificate shows her as a spinster, age 29 (so born c.1877). This birth year aligns with the 1911 census where her age is 33 (1878).
However the 1939 Register shows her birth year to be 1881 and her civil death record (in 1962) as 1884.
Her father, according to her marriage cert, was William Shipley (deceased), glassblower.
The 1911 census entry is a bit confusing as they evidently got their details crossed, but I know George was born in Nechells, Birmingham, so the mention of Dudley presumably applies to Clara.
Anyway, I can find no other convincing records (birth, censuses etc) for a Clara born in or around Dudley with a father called William. Playing with spellings of the surname (Shippley, Shepley, Shirley) hasn't helped and neither has juggling her forenames.
The wide variations in her year of birth and the incorrect number of years of marriage in the 1911 census (given as 7 when it was in fact 5) suggests that they were either poor at maths (probably true!) or they had something to hide. If the latter, how much of the other information can be trusted?!
So has anyone out there any knowledge of the Shipley family in and around Birmingham, please?
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There is a birth for a Clara Jane Shipley, 4 qr 1884, West Bromwich 6B 777. Could this be a possibility? In terms of distance West Brom and Dudley are basically next door to each other, although this would be on the later end of your time scale.
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1891 - a possible for the one bn 1884
Tatenhill Staffs
James Lawrence 56 garden labourer bn Brewood
Mary 64 bn Shirley Wick
John 26 son painter
Clara Shipley 8 granddaughter bn Tatenhill
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No, I had a look and that's a different Clara from the Clara Jane birth listed above. The Tatenhill Clara was born and christened 1883 Tatenhill, dau of Thomas and Mary.
Of course that means we are still missing the 1884 Clara from census :/
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Thanks for those suggestions. Tatenhill is close to Burton on Trent (beer country) I believe, so that could work if William was a glass blower (did they make the bottles in Burton?). But it's a fair distance from Dudley.
I'd spotted the W Brom birth too but I've not found any census that confirms it's the right family (I'm too mean to buy a cert on the off-chance!)
I'm grateful for your help!
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Have you considered she may have been illegitimate and registered under a different surname? If her mother married a Mr Shipley she may have taken her stepfathers surname
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Did they have a daughter born 1918?
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Hi Carole, thanks for your posts. Yes, I agree that she may have been born with a different name, but I've not found anything to confirm that. Nor to deny it either! I would still have expected to find a census with a William Shipley who was a glass blower, but haven't. Of course, his occupation in the censuses might have been described differently.
And yes, according to George's military records they had a daughter in 1918 - Ellen. There seem to have been a couple of marriages of an Ellen Hawker in Birmingham (1938 and 1940) but I have not yet discovered if either were 'my' Ellen.
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The 1938 was Ellen E so I think she may be the 1940
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Definitely the 1940 marriage
Ellen McKeown aged 72 - born 5.9.1918 Death reg March 1991 Birmingham Volume 32 Page 1053
Three children born between 1942-1959 - all Birmingham. Names cannot be given as they are probably all still living
Does the 1939 register give a full date of birth for Clara?
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Working on the theory that Clara may have been illegitimate I looked for a marriage in Dudley of a female with the surname Shipley and came up with this:
Apr-Jun 1887, Dudley, 6c / 94 - Sarah Shipley & Joseph Hill or William Roe
1891 Census - RG12/2279/17/27
George Shipley 66 Head b (?) Staffordshire, Ag Farm Labourer
Hannah Shipley 64 Wife b Yoxall, Staffordshire
George Shipley 15 Son b Oldbury, Farm Labourer
Sarah Row 37 Daughter Widow b West Bromwich, Brick Yard Labourer
Clara Row 5 Grand Daughter b Oldbury
Flora Row 3 Grand Daughter b Oldbury,
Mary Row 10M Grand Daughter b Rowley Regis
What do you think?
There is a birth for a Clara Jane Rowe in the Dec Q 1885 in Burton on Trent but I cant find her on the census - unless this is her above :-\
William Roe, Labourer, of Newbury Lane, Oldbury, Worcs, died 31 Jan 1890 leaving an estate of £72. Administration was to his widow, Sarah Roe of Tividale, Rowley Regis, Staffordshire.
Added: In 1901 Clara Ro(w)e is still living in Rowley Regis (Dudley RD) in the home of George P Shipley aged 26. Clara is listed as his sister in law, aged 18 and a brick maker.
Also added: Just checking my registration districts, Oldbury - Clara Ro(w)e's PoB - came under West Bromwich, which ties in with the birth registration for Clara Jane Shipley.
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Unfortunately there is a marriage of a Clara Jane Rowe 1908 Burton upon Trent to either William Francis Durant or Ernest William Hartland
Willow x
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Unfortunately there is a marriage of a Clara Jane Rowe 1908 Burton upon Trent to either William Francis Durant or Ernest William Hartland
Willow x
That's probably the one born 1885 Burton on Trent, which adds weight to the Clara Roe/Row/Rowe in Rowley Regis, Dudley, being Clara Shipley.
Just need to find the Burton on Trent Clara on a census to be sure that they are two different people.
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Don't know why I couldn't find it before
Clara J Rowe in 1901: RG13/2648/25/41 - Winshill, Burton on Trent
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She married William Durant and she was born 1886 Burton
Willow x
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Thanks again folks! I've just checked the 1939 Register and it gives Clara's dob as 8 September 1881. I've found no BMD record for a Shipley born in Dudley at that time so I think your suggestions that she assumed the name are good ones. So I think it means a plod through the records to see if a match can be found.
Two births that caught my eye were of Clara Janes in Dudley with surnames Rust and Shake but both were the wrong quarter.
Thanks too for pointing me to Ellen's marriage to Hugh McKeown in 1940. I've identified the three children as: Hugh P, 1942; Mireen M, 1946 and Angela M, 1959. The first two at least married (I've not yet found a marriage for Angela) and there seem to be grandchildren.
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I'm a little confused. We already know from the differences in the census & her marriage that there is some real uncertainty over her actual year of birth. I therefore think its highly unlikely that she would suddenly be 100% accurate about it in 1939. Looking for her death, the nearest I can find is in Birmingham in 1962, recorded as Clare J Hawker aged 78, putting her birth as 1884.
Therefore, assuming that the date of 8 September is correct then her birth could have been registered in either Sept or Dec quarter, which puts the Clara Jane Shipley from Dec quarter 1884 as a very strong possibility.
I really think you need to invest the £9.25 on the certificate and see if the date matches & whether her mother is Sarah Shipley, single woman, who then went on to marry William Roe. Certainly from the 1891 census Clara Row was born before Sarah & William were married, and although she was listed as aged 5 when she would actually have been 6, by 1901 she was listed as aged 18.
Added: Its possible she may not even have known her day/month of birth - did you notice that 8th Sept is also her marriage date? So whilst its entirely possible that she married on her birthday, its also possible that she just "adopted" this date in the absence of knowing her real one.
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Some good logic there! I need to think further...
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Its a difficult one, as where the occupation Glass Blower came from I really don't know . It might have been the occupation of her biological father, whose identity we may never know.
However, if this is your Clara then her sister Flora shown in 1891 may also have been born before Sarah & William married. She is still with Sarah in later census lodging with a coal miner named William Pugh but is referred to as Florence.
There is no birth for a Flora/Florence Roe/Row/Rowe after the 1887 marriage, but there is one for Bertha Florence Shipley Dec quarter 1886 in West Bromwich. Florence Roe married Bertram Sydney Lissaman in 1907, and his WW1 records show they also moved to Birmingham.
It looks as though Mary Roe, the youngest sister, died in 1891 aged 0.
One other thought I had about Clara is that on census records George Hawker's father is shown as a builder or bricklayer, and Clara Shipley / Roe & her family were involved in brick making, so possibly a connection there? :-\
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Definitely the 1940 marriage
Ellen McKeown aged 72 - born 5.9.1918 Death reg March 1991 Birmingham Volume 32 Page 1053
Three children born between 1942-1959 - all Birmingham. Names cannot be given as they are probably all still living
100% confirm 1940 - Ellens my nan! Only one of her three children still alive, my mum Mireen born 1946. Hugh and Angela have sadly passed. 7 Grandchildren, 5 Great Grandchildren.
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Hi Sparkym & welcome to Rootschat.
Seems its a small world!
pollux83 is offline at the moment but I'm sure she'll be delighted to hear from you - especially if you can shed some light on Ellen's mother ;D
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Working on the theory that Clara may have been illegitimate I looked for a marriage in Dudley of a female with the surname Shipley and came up with this:
Apr-Jun 1887, Dudley, 6c / 94 - Sarah Shipley & Joseph Hill or William Roe
1891 Census - RG12/2279/17/27
George Shipley 66 Head b (?) Staffordshire, Ag Farm Labourer
Hannah Shipley 64 Wife b Yoxall, Staffordshire
George Shipley 15 Son b Oldbury, Farm Labourer
Sarah Row 37 Daughter Widow b West Bromwich, Brick Yard Labourer
Clara Row 5 Grand Daughter b Oldbury
Flora Row 3 Grand Daughter b Oldbury,
Mary Row 10M Grand Daughter b Rowley Regis
What do you think?
There is a birth for a Clara Jane Rowe in the Dec Q 1885 in Burton on Trent but I cant find her on the census - unless this is her above :-\
William Roe, Labourer, of Newbury Lane, Oldbury, Worcs, died 31 Jan 1890 leaving an estate of £72. Administration was to his widow, Sarah Roe of Tividale, Rowley Regis, Staffordshire.
Added: In 1901 Clara Ro(w)e is still living in Rowley Regis (Dudley RD) in the home of George P Shipley aged 26. Clara is listed as his sister in law, aged 18 and a brick maker.
Also added: Just checking my registration districts, Oldbury - Clara Ro(w)e's PoB - came under West Bromwich, which ties in with the birth registration for Clara Jane Shipley.
WestmidlandsBMD shows that the birth of Clara Jane Shipley was registered in Oldbury subdistrict, which looks promising.
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Hi Sparkym & welcome to Rootschat.
Seems its a small world!
pollux83 is offline at the moment but I'm sure she'll be delighted to hear from you - especially if you can shed some light on Ellen's mother ;D
Thanks, I've already briefed my mum and asked her to dig out Nans birth certificate see what comes up on there. As we know little about the Hawkers this is really exciting discovery for us.
I am really interested to see if we have any military connections - Nanused to say that we were somehow linked to Hawker aircraft ltd that designed the Battle of Britain planes but I've never followed it up.
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Hi Sparkym5!
I imagine you are the person I've been discussing this with on another site. The Hawkers (at least, the branch of the Hawker clan that you are related to) were a lively bunch in Victorian times, having numerous dealings with the law. There is a hilarious account in a newspaper article from 1871 (I think) of a street brawl that is right out of Keystone Cops. Not just the men but some of the wives were involved.
I've found no evidence of a connection with the Hawker aircraft company.
Looking forward to more discoveries!
Pollux83 (Paul) (he, not she, Jomot!)
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Haha too much to take in on a Friday Paul - not only do I discover that I am part Dingle (Brummie term for Black Country folk) but I'm also related to a branch of the Peaky Blinders :)
Will be over at my parents this weekend I'll raid their archives see if there are any documents or photos of Clara and George.
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Pollux83 (Paul) (he, not she, Jomot!)
Oops - my apologies !
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Well, it looks like Jomot was right on the ball! I now have Clara's birth certificate, which says that she was born on 6 Sept 1884 in Newbury Lane, Oldbury, to Sarah Shipley, a labourer in a brickyard. No father given.
As Jomot mentioned, in the 1901 census Clara is a brick maker. And in the 1939 Register, her husband George Hawker appears as a General Labourer - Brickyard. It all seems to hang together.
Regarding their marriage certificate in 1906, where Clara's father is given as William Shipley, glass blower, deceased, I think the suggestion that he was in fact William Ro(w)e is a sound one. I have found a William Roe in the 1881 census living in Harborne. Both he and his brother were born in Smethwick and worked in a glass works. I'm guessing that was the Chance Brothers works in Smethwick.
Without getting Sarah and William's marriage certificate and checking his father's name and other details I can't be sure this is the right William, but the rest of the story is looking good now.
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I'm pleased it seems to be the right one, everything certainly seems to fit. :)