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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: strong on Tuesday 30 August 16 18:00 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I mislaid one of my ancestors (careless I know!) after the 1901 census when he was employed as a window cleaner in a Westminster Hotel. I have recently discovered he went to the above Workhouse with a note stating 'transferred to Infirmary' in 1904.
His name was Sydney Robert Strong, born 1865-6 at Enford, Wiltshire. Some records show him as Sidney.
I've reached a new dead-end, albeit three years forward.
Does anyone have records for this institution they can look up.
How likely is it he stayed in the area and/or died soon after?
I cannot find any suitable death record but guess Workhouses/Infirmary's still produced any death record?
Many thanks for any help or ideas.
Graham
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Was he married or single?
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Single as far as I know. I know it's the right guy as his brother (my great-grandfather) is listed as next of kin at his Wiltshire address. I can only guess he moved to London for his fortune. Sadly didn't find it. Before 1901 he was listed in Wiltshire censuses.
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Take a look at:
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/StGeorges/
Right at the bottom is a list of Records, and where they may be found.
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Thanks for the links.
Most take me to Ancestry, which I have already exhausted and recently obtained the 5 documents they hold for Sydney Strong.
The latest of which just states 28 May 1904, transferred to Infirmary (from workhouse).
The top link for some reason I am unable to activate 'search' - it doesn't work.
If a visit to London persoanally is needed, then I'm afraid I'm unable to do that. Hence my posting here.
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The link takes you to Peter Higginbotham's dedicated Workhouse website and details where the surviving records are held at the bottom of the page.
The London Metropolitan Archives is suggested as having the following records but if you can't get there in person, you could ask them for a quote for doing the research on your behalf. They charge £50 per hour which is quite steep.
Chatters who visit the archives in London are few and far between so you might have a bit of a wait.
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you can search the LMA catalogue from here
https://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/things-to-do/london-metropolitan-archives/Pages/search.aspx
the reference codse is FBG, once you have got the the main page for the Fulham Board of Guardians you can view the full catalogue as a pdf from the red box on the right side of the screen.
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the reference codse is FBG, once you have got the the main page for the Fulham Board of Guardians you can view the full catalogue as a pdf from the red box on the right side of the screen.
The St George's Union workhouse in Fulham Road was managed by the Westminster Guardians (WEBG), not by Fulham (FBG).
The reference code to enter in the LMA catalogue is WEBG/SG.
ADDED - LMA now charge £80 per hour for PDRS (Paid Document Research Service).
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And I didn't see that they had anything extra to what they've made available to Ancestry
Mind you, it's the Infirmary records you want which don't appear to be anywhere
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01id5/
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I got an email to say this topic has been moved. Bit confused!
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I would be happy to find a death record for Sydney (Sidney) Robert Strong, but can find nothing suitable.
As I can't find him in the 1911 and the latest info is the St. Georges Workhouse/Infirmary in 1904, guess he died between 1904-1911.
Any keen eyed Chatters find anything I overlooked?
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I moved it so I could post the image from the Workhouse site as you couldn't access the information yourself. You can't attach images on the look-up request boards.
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I would be happy to find a death record for Sydney (Sidney) Robert Strong, but can find nothing suitable.
You might want to consider this one, if you haven't already ...
Jun Qtr 1908
STRONG Sydney, aged 46
Nantwich vol 8a p 203
From the parish register, this man was buried at Nantwich Parish Church from The Union (= workhouse or infirmary) on 6 May 1908.
The problem is that the above death cert may not have enough information for you to identify him as yours (or not), because the informant may be a member of staff. Nantwich workhouse records are at Cheshire Archives, but there doesn't appear to be anything useful there for this enquiry.
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Nantwich/#Records
Although this death is out of the expected area, it's a fairly distinctive name, he's about the right age, and it would appear to be the only feasible death-index entry found between 1904 and 1911.
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Dear Bookbox,
Many thanks for your information. Fortunately I have a FindMyPast subscription at present and have found the parish burial record. I had previously dismissed this entry before, but new light shows it to be from the Union.
From your experience, is it possible for someone to be moved from London to Nantwich?
Any reason why he was not sent back to Wiltshire, from whence he came?
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Just an added note:
Sydney Robert Strong born 2 June 1865, baptised 12 April 1868 at Enford, Wiltshire.
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If this is the same man (which is far from certain), I think it would be unwise to assume he was removed under the poor law from Westminster directly to Nantwich. There is a four-year gap between the dates, and he could have been anywhere in the meantime. He may have been in the Fulham Road infirmary only very briefly, and then moved out of the area. He is unlikely to have been in the care of Westminster all that time, because you haven't found another workhouse admission for him in the online records.
I wouldn't be too worried about the age discrepancy in the death index, since his age at death would have been taken from the Nantwich workhouse/infirmary records, which are frequently inaccurate. If you want to chance your hand, you could order the death certificate in the hope that there is something on it (e.g. an occupation) that helps identify him. But you should be aware that there may be nothing conclusive to show for the money spent.
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I came across this death entry, which although the age doesn't fit the year and area are spot on.
Deaths Mar Qtr. 1905. Sidney Strong age 66 St. George Hanover Square 1a 315
Does anyone have any burial records for this one, it's not available under my subscription (yet Nantwich was!).
Would be good to find the age 66 is wrong and he was actually 40!
Should I repost this request elsewhere for better coverage?
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There were almost no burials in churchyards by 1905 so you would be looking for a cemetery burial.
https://www.westminster.gov.uk/cemetery-records
The City of Westminster operates 3, Hanwell is the most likely
https://www.westminster.gov.uk/information-about-westminster-cemeteries
I won't be at Westminster Archives for a few weeks so can't check for you. You could ask Westminster Archives to do a search but as you don't have an exact date of death, they may charge. There were 458 deaths recorded st St Geo Han Sq March 1/4 1905. While not all of them would have been buried at Hanwell, that's still a lot of possible entries in the burial register.
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Hanwell burials are online for this year, but he is not showing there.
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This is an area of Ancestry tracing I'm unfamiliar with, so am led by your experience.
Hanwell seems a long way from the St. Goerges Infirmary, which I think comes under the St. Georges Hanover Square district, latterly Wesminster.
Do you have copies of the Workhouse papers? If not can I send them to you. There could be some wording I'm overlooking but did glean he had limb(s) pain. Not good for a window cleaner!
Just for reference, he was working at the Westminster Palace Hotel. A regular staying place for MP's due to it's proximity to the House of Commons. I have a gut feeling he didn't move away and died soon after 1904.
I have since discovered, the guy who died aged 66 is not mine. He was listed in the 1901 census with an age of 62 as a Barrister at Law. A far cry from the Ag. Lab of my ancestor!
My next effort is to grab from FreeBMD some births & deaths for Sidney/Sydney Strong and see if I can match them up and see what's left over. Might take a few days, but I'll post any possibilities.
I'm in no desperate rush and if you feel inclined (or curious!) to have a look when you are next in the records office, I will be truly grateful.
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Yes, Hanwell is a way out of London (not too far though) but they had to design a cemetery where there was space.
Hanwell was a popular choice, on the other side of the road, literally, is the cemetery for Kensington & Chelsea.
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There could be some wording I'm overlooking but did glean he had limb(s) pain.
For the Casebook entry when he was first admitted to the workhouse, on 18 November 1903, I agree it says (Pain in limbs).
It's an overflow from the column headed Work certified by doctor, which reads Oakum at present (i.e. he was picking oakum, a standard workhouse task -- see http://www.workhouses.org.uk/life/work.shtml), initialled H. W. W. (presumably the medical officer). Because he had pains in his limbs he was temporarily being allowed to pick oakum rather than doing heavier manual work, such as stone-breaking.
Then in pencil is written Pewsey?, querying the poor-law union to which he was thought chargeable (Enford came under Pewsey). He may have been physically removed to Pewsey, but at this date it's more likely that Westminster would simply have billed Pewsey for the costs of his care.
When he was admitted to the workhouse for the second time, on 28 March 1904, he was passed to the infirmary the same day.
There are no admission/discharge records for the Fulham Road infirmary at this date, as has been stated above (reply #8), so there's no point looking for them at the record office. I believe all the Fulham Road workhouse admission/discharge registers are online up to 1923. There doesn't seem to be another admission for him, and there are no death-index entries in his name in any Westminster registration district. So he seems to have died elsewhere, and Westminster poor-law records are therefore unlikely to help with finding his death.
When searching the deaths index you might want to be flexible about dates. Although he can't be found in 1911, he need not have died -- lots of people can't be found in one census or another, for all sorts of reasons.
That said, my money would still be on the Nantwich death. But, as I mentioned above, a single man who died away from his family, in an institution, and perhaps with a 'generic' occupation such as Labourer, may be hard to identify from the certificate as your target person. Unless there was an accident and a consequent inquest, you're unlikely to learn anything much beyond the basic cause of death.
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Following your suggestion of the Nantwich burial, I'm now trying to get hold of an Internment certificate. Not living in the area, I'm at a bit of a loss as to who to contact.
Have tried Nantwich Town Council, St. Mary's Church and Crewe Registry Office none of which can assist.
Any ideas?
Hoping this may show some extra detail.
Many thanks
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As I understand it, you already have the image of the parish burial register. No other documentation for the burial will be available, unless there is a Nantwich Workhouse record at Cheshire Archives (unlikely -- see reply #12).
I believe the only option is to purchase the civil registration death certificate, although the information to be got from it may be limited (again as noted above -- replies ##12 and 21).
You can order the death certificate online from the General Register Office, using the index data posted in reply #12. Cost £9.25 including worldwide postage.
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/
(Please don't order it through any commercial 3rd party -- much more expensive and almost certainly slower.)
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Further to the above conversation, I have now obtained a copy of the death certificate (attached).
I'm not sure it helps much, but am posting for any 'experts' to comment.
If this is 'my' Sydney, the birth date doesn't match. However, I have checked for Sydney/Sidney Strong births from 1860 - 1868 and this seems to be the closest. I had previously eliminated the one from Hampshire.
Adding to this, I have been unable to locate my Sydney in the 1911 census.
The only puzzle (to me) is why he would have been moved from Westminster to Nantwich.
Any ideas or comments?
Many thanks.
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Where is the birth date on that certificate?
The only clue you have is his age at death (46) as reported by the informant (Workhouse Master).
Did this person actually know his age?
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Where is the birth date on that certificate?
The only clue you have is his age at death (46) as reported by the informant (Workhouse Master).
Did this person actually know his age?
To the best of his knowledge and belief that was the age that his records showed him to be.
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Good point.
But the Westminster Workhouse had his correct birth details. Would those records not have transferred to Nantwich?
Still a puzzle - why he (was?) moved.
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But the Westminster Workhouse had his correct birth details. Would those records not have transferred to Nantwich?
Still a puzzle - why he (was?) moved.
I don’t understand why you think he was removed from London to Nantwich. As mentioned above (reply #15), there is a four-year gap between 1904, when he was last recorded in the Westminster poor law records, and this death in 1908. Meanwhile he might have been working anywhere in the country -- people travelled around to get whatever work they could. In that event, his admission to Nantwich would have been an entirely separate matter from the London admission, and there is no reason why records should have been passed between the two.
As regards his age, you already knew this from the death index before you ordered the certificate, so I’m not sure why you are raising it again here as a problem. As mentioned repeatedly above (replies ##12, 21, 23) there was every chance that there would not be enough information on the death certificate to identify him positively.
... a single man who died away from his family, in an institution, and perhaps with a 'generic' occupation such as Labourer, may be hard to identify from the certificate as your target person. Unless there was an accident and a consequent inquest, you're unlikely to learn anything much beyond the basic cause of death.
That said, given the frequent inaccuracy of ages in institutional records, his occupation being in the right ballpark, his name being correctly spelt Sydney (as opposed to the more usual Sidney), and the lack of any convincing candidate in 1911, I’d be inclined to accept this as the right record.
We don’t always get 100% proof. Sometimes we just have to go with the most likely scenario, keeping an open mind in case anything better should turn up.