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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: BarryBear on Sunday 28 August 16 23:17 BST (UK)

Title: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: BarryBear on Sunday 28 August 16 23:17 BST (UK)
Hi folks,
I'm banging my head trying to find where this was taken, and I'd be very grateful if anyone can help.
It is anotated with "Central Laboratories November 1930"
My grandfather, Joseph Stewart Lawson,  is pictured and he was a chemist journeyman.
I know he lived in Chadwell Heath in early 1930 but by April 1931 was in Teddington, so I imagine this was fairly close to one of these places.
My googleing has come up with nothing so I'm hoping someone might have a clue.
Thanks
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: KGarrad on Monday 29 August 16 00:01 BST (UK)
Could it be NPL - National Physical Laboratories?

They were at Bush House, Teddington.
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: groom on Monday 29 August 16 00:12 BST (UK)
If you google images of that KG it was Bushy House and doesn't look the same to me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushy_House
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: Ruskie on Monday 29 August 16 00:38 BST (UK)
It does look like a city location - with the footpath and road. The building may be newly constructed - I think it has a 30s look to it.  ;)
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: ScouseBoy on Monday 29 August 16 05:51 BST (UK)
It maybe the Admiralty Research Laboratory  at Teddington

Searching now for  photographs

See Admiralty Road,  Teddington  on google maps
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: stevew101 on Monday 29 August 16 07:29 BST (UK)
How about EMI's Central Research Laboratories down the road at Hayes.  They had quite a complex of buildings, all dated around this time.  EMI didn't just make vinyl records, the research and development wing designed microphones, radar, medical CAT Scan machines, guided missiles, computers and televisions.

I have not been able to find pictures of the labs, but maybe someone local to the area may have a thought.

Just an idea.
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: KGarrad on Monday 29 August 16 07:45 BST (UK)
Another possibility would be The Laboratory of the Government Chemist?
Privatised in 1996 to become LGC.
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: rosie99 on Monday 29 August 16 07:59 BST (UK)
I cannot find a picture but wonder if it was the National Chemical Laboratory at Teddington mentioned here
http://www.emeraldinsight.com/doi/abs/10.1108/eb019532

This establishment had been inaugurated several years previously as a separate D.S.I.R. station situated in the same grounds as the National Physical Laboratory. Quite recently it has achieved the status of National Chemical Laboratory

The apparent roadside view could just be access road to the building
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: groom on Monday 29 August 16 09:38 BST (UK)
Barry, have you found your Grandfather on the 1939 register as that would tell us if he was in the same area and may give more details about his occupation?
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: ScouseBoy on Monday 29 August 16 09:42 BST (UK)
Barry, have you found your Grandfather on the 1939 register as that would tell us if he was in the same area and may give more details about his occupation?
   It is the Admiralty Research Laboratory, Teddington.
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: rosie99 on Monday 29 August 16 10:52 BST (UK)
It is the Admiralty Research Laboratory, Teddington.

Looking promising SB   ;D
Pictures here
http://arl.g3w1.com/

ADDED not too sure about the windows though
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: groom on Monday 29 August 16 11:51 BST (UK)
Barry, have you found your Grandfather on the 1939 register as that would tell us if he was in the same area and may give more details about his occupation?
   It is the Admiralty Research Laboratory, Teddington.

That's said with authority, SB - can you show why you think it's that? I'm not convinced it is the same place or that a chemist would be employed there. Willing to be proved wrong though!
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: groom on Monday 29 August 16 11:56 BST (UK)
This photo is from the Research Lab - might help to identify if it is the same place
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: Ruskie on Monday 29 August 16 12:36 BST (UK)
The building in the OP's photo is from a later era than The Admiralty Research Lab as suggested with authority by ScouseBoy.

SB, Can you provide an image which shows similar architecture, preferably the same entrance, to that in the OP's photograph?

Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: rosie99 on Monday 29 August 16 12:39 BST (UK)
I am not convinced about the Admiralty Research Lab.  The link I posted earlier has photos which indicate that any doorway may have an 'Anchor' over it.  Also the windows are not the same type.
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: jess5athome on Monday 29 August 16 12:53 BST (UK)
Hi  :) Just coming in on this with my two pence worth ;D

Does that look like a tower in the reflection of the window on the left side of the entrance?
also, is that a bridge like structure in the reflection of the window on the far left?

Frank.
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: maddys52 on Monday 29 August 16 13:16 BST (UK)
Yes I was wondering about the reflections?  ???

I can't find any photos online, but the Sir Charles Morgan Building apparently built 1925, extended 1927/28 and completed 1933 housed the National Chemical Laboratory which joined the NPL in 1925. Looking at the location on the map in this document, it looks like a building of the right size and location - but as I say, can't find a photo ... so could be totally wrong.
http://www.npl.co.uk/upload/pdf/Development%20of%20the%20NPL%20Site%201900-1970.pdf (info about 2/3 way through document)
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: jess5athome on Monday 29 August 16 14:12 BST (UK)
I think I could well be a million miles away here, but, could the photograph have been taken looking the opposite way from the group photograph at the A.R.L Teddington on this link, Bridge like structure as well as same style of suits.  :-\

Frank.

http://www.oceanswormley.org/index.html

Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: ScouseBoy on Monday 29 August 16 15:07 BST (UK)
Could it be NPL - National Physical Laboratories?

They were at Bush House, Teddington.
Thank you for this suggestion.  I believe that the ARL  was adjacent to the NPL  and that ARL staff shared some common services such as the canteen with the NPL. Maybe ARL used the services of the NPL  workshops ( model room) as well?
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: Handypandy on Monday 29 August 16 16:23 BST (UK)
I definitely think that its one of a number of buildings within a complex. The fact that it merely says 'Laboratories' over the entrance with no indication of whose. If it was a lone building, I'm sure that it would have been signed up with the name of the organisation too.
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: John915 on Monday 29 August 16 18:06 BST (UK)
Good afternoon,

I would say one of the many buildings at Bushy House. It is a huge site with Bushy House itself right at the south end near the Rd.  If you look at Maddy's link and scroll down to about page 20 there is a plan of the place. Go a few more pages and you will find a series of b/w photo's. I'm on my tablet so can'take get a really good look at the moment.

I used to drive past it every week and never really took much notice of the place but the architecture is similar to a lot of the older buildings.

John915

PS, the place in your link Frank was built in the 50s
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: PalmTree1 on Tuesday 30 August 16 19:00 BST (UK)
As I live local to the NPL I thought I'd do a walk around with a pair of Mark 1 eyeballs to see what I could see.
I did not see anything that fitted exactly which does not mean it is not somewhere in there as there are many buildings all hidden one behind the other and the perimeter consists of high walls and fences often with trees and bushes blocking the view. I did see a couple of smaller older buildings that had similar brickwork and windows, though the frames are painted white, but the entrances did not match.
If you live anywhere nearby you might be interested to know that Bushy House, the original home of the NPL, is having an open house on Saturday 17th September which might open up other views of the main site or you might find someone from the NPL that recognises the scene.
HTH,
Paul
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: maddys52 on Wednesday 31 August 16 00:28 BST (UK)
That was very kind of you Paul to walk around the NPL, (I remember your great photo of Newton's apple tree  ;D).

I do wonder about the sign though, thinking about it, would they really need to identify a building as "Laboratories", don't know much about the place but I would have thought there were a number of laboratories on site?  ???

Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: barryd on Wednesday 31 August 16 04:37 BST (UK)
There are four Joseph S. Lawson names on the 1939 Index. It would help if you have a wife for Joseph and he was married prior to the war.

All possible Joseph S. Lawson men in 1939 are living at Leeds and Bedale, Yorkshire, Blackburn, Lancashire and one that could possibly be eliminated in Easington County Durham.
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: rosie99 on Wednesday 31 August 16 08:45 BST (UK)
There are four Joseph S. Lawson names on the 1939 Index. It would help if you have a wife for Joseph and he was married prior to the war.

All possible Joseph S. Lawson men in 1939 are living at Leeds and Bedale, Yorkshire, Blackburn, Lancashire and one that could possibly be eliminated in Easington County Durham.

From an earlier post
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=7597.msg22929#msg22929
Joseph Stuart LAWSON b.c.1887 in Jarrow. He was my grandfather. He was a soldier in WW1 and was at St Thomas' hospital in London where he met and married Kate E. KNIGHT
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: groom on Wednesday 31 August 16 08:50 BST (UK)
I did ask in an earlier post whether he'd been found in the 1939, we do need to know as this might change the location completely.
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: rosie99 on Wednesday 31 August 16 08:56 BST (UK)
On the other post it is mentioned that they lived in Croydon.  Kate can be seen on the 1939 free index there,  by playing with the records her husband is using his middle name

Location could be Croydon area
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: jess5athome on Wednesday 31 August 16 08:57 BST (UK)
..........................................the place in your link Frank was built in the 50s


Hi, yes it was, but doesn't the caption at the side of the group photograph state:-

                             "Some of the Group W scientists photographed at ARL Teddington............."


Frank.  :)
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: groom on Wednesday 31 August 16 09:57 BST (UK)
On the other post it is mentioned that they lived in Croydon.  Kate can be seen on the 1939 free index there,  by playing with the records her husband is using his middle name

Location could be Croydon area

Where I grew up, I don't recognise anywhere like that, probably long gone now if it was there.
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: PalmTree1 on Wednesday 31 August 16 10:56 BST (UK)
I do wonder about the sign though, thinking about it, would they really need to identify a building as "Laboratories", don't know much about the place but I would have thought there were a number of laboratories on site?  ???
Too true Maddy, the place is full of laboratories so in many ways it would make a nonsense of the sign. As the OP's grandfather was a chemist it is worth noting that the Chemical Research Laboratory opened on the NPL site in 1925 and was later known as the National Chemical Laboratory before closing in 1965. I have not found a photo of this building. One thing that struck me was that in the majority of cases there were steps leading down from the exit doors of the brick buildings, due presumably to fears of flooding... Such steps do not appear in the original picture.
Paul
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: LizzieL on Wednesday 31 August 16 11:01 BST (UK)
It is anotated with "Central Laboratories November 1930"
My grandfather, Joseph Stewart Lawson,  is pictured and he was a chemist journeyman.
I know he lived in Chadwell Heath in early 1930 but by April 1931 was in Teddington, so I imagine this was fairly close to one of these places.

Quote from original post, so unless Joseph lived somewhere else for a short time between moving from Chadwell Heath and moving to Teddington, I think the OP is right when they say it was near one of these two places.
Is there a suitable laboratory near Chadwell heath. I believe May and Baker at Dagenham wasn't built until mid 30s so can't be that one.

To label the building "Laboratories" might imply there was a factory on the same site.
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: LizzieL on Wednesday 31 August 16 11:07 BST (UK)
Two in the Chadwell area - Ilford photographics and Hopkin & Williams (chemical supplier)
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: rosie99 on Wednesday 31 August 16 11:10 BST (UK)
As the OP's grandfather was a chemist it is worth noting that the Chemical Research Laboratory opened on the NPL site in 1925 and was later known as the National Chemical Laboratory before closing in 1965. I have not found a photo of this building.

I suggested the National Chemical Laboratory (Reply 7) but like you have not found any photo's
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: mazi on Wednesday 31 August 16 12:02 BST (UK)
This is most of the site from above in 1928.

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01id2/

It's the job title that worries me, all these establishments were civil service,  you might expect to see scientific officer, or similar
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: PalmTree1 on Wednesday 31 August 16 12:49 BST (UK)
As the OP's grandfather was a chemist it is worth noting that the Chemical Research Laboratory opened on the NPL site in 1925 and was later known as the National Chemical Laboratory before closing in 1965. I have not found a photo of this building.

I suggested the National Chemical Laboratory (Reply 7) but like you have not found any photo's
Sorry Rosie, missed that in the 4 pages, and just to add that the building was renamed the "Sir Charles Morgan Building" in 1965.
I wonder if someone can identify any of the more senior people in the photo which might help fix the location? I've been trying but without any success so far.
Paul
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: LizzieL on Wednesday 31 August 16 13:04 BST (UK)

It's the job title that worries me, all these establishments were civil service,  you might expect to see scientific officer, or similar

It depends where the job title "Chemist journeyman" came from. If it was from a marriage record or baptism record of any children it could predate 1930 by several years.
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: PalmTree1 on Wednesday 31 August 16 13:12 BST (UK)

It's the job title that worries me, all these establishments were civil service,  you might expect to see scientific officer, or similar

It depends where the job title "Chemist journeyman" came from. If it was from a marriage record or baptism record of any children it could predate 1930 by several years.

Moderator comment: edited for content, please do not post full details from the 1939 register

Certainly does not look like the site for the original photo but could he have been employed in the food industry?
Paul
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: BarryBear on Wednesday 31 August 16 14:08 BST (UK)
HI Everyone.
Thanks for all the detective work.
Just to add, Joseph and family were in Teddington in April !931 as thats when my Dad was born. The Chadwell Heath address and his occupation are from his eldest son's death certificate in January 1930.
Sometime in the early 30's they moved to Wimbledon, then Croydon. But, as the photo is 1930, this doesn't make much difference.
Thanks again.
Barry
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: StevieSteve on Wednesday 31 August 16 16:02 BST (UK)
Anybody fancy a trip to Hackney? (No-one has ever answered yes to that question)

Title:   The House of Berger during the years of the World War 1939-1945. Deals in the main with the premises at Homerton and Chadwell Heath. Includes photographs of laboratories and library.

Reference:   D/B/BER/2/7/48
Date:   1945
Held by:   Hackney Archives Department
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: ScouseBoy on Wednesday 31 August 16 16:17 BST (UK)
I do wonder about the sign though, thinking about it, would they really need to identify a building as "Laboratories", don't know much about the place but I would have thought there were a number of laboratories on site?  ???
Too true Maddy, the place is full of laboratories so in many ways it would make a nonsense of the sign. As the OP's grandfather was a chemist it is worth noting that the Chemical Research Laboratory opened on the NPL site in 1925 and was later known as the National Chemical Laboratory before closing in 1965. I have not found a photo of this building. One thing that struck me was that in the majority of cases there were steps leading down from the exit doors of the brick buildings, due presumably to fears of flooding... Such steps do not appear in the original picture.
Paul
   Much of the work carried out at the Admiralty Research Laboratory   would have been Secret,    therefore, they would  be unlikely    to have   had a sign saying "Secret Laboratories".    So "Laboratories"   is  an adequate  description.     All the buildings on the site  would have  been identified by either a number   or an alphabetic initial. (See wiki  for further detail, please)
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: rosie99 on Wednesday 31 August 16 17:06 BST (UK)
What was his occupation on your fathers birth certificate  :-\
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: ScouseBoy on Wednesday 31 August 16 21:05 BST (UK)
The building in the OP's photo is from a later era than The Admiralty Research Lab as suggested with authority by ScouseBoy.


What evidence do you have   to be able to make that statement, please?

Buildings on the site  occupied by both the NPL   and ARL  were both commissioned by the Ministry of Public Works.  It was a big site.

Later on, the Ministry of Defence  built   or extended  many Research establishments:    Royal Signals Research Establishment;   Underwater Weapons Research Establishment.   Royal Aircraft Establishment
and several others,  people may wish to look them up on the internet.
Title: Re: Identify the location please! Essex or Surrey perhaps?
Post by: BarryBear on Thursday 01 September 16 00:44 BST (UK)
What was his occupation on your fathers birth certificate  :-\
Research chemist