RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Antrim => Topic started by: Siamblue on Sunday 28 August 16 17:57 BST (UK)
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Hi people, what a wonderful and amazing website/forum you have here, it is truly amazing all of the good information to be had whilst looking for relatives from the past.
I have really really come up against a brick wall, my ancestor who is my grandfather on my fathers side has a very unusual name but I am struggling a bit finding things out about him.
I did a search on ancestry.com and the only info to be had was a will and probate, that actually gave me my grandfathers date of death, so I then went onto the Groni site and found his death certificate which I have now ordered the full one, what I am stuck with is I cannot find anythig else out about my family.
The info I do have is my grandfather was a Samuel Shields Wallace and he was 44 when he died on the 20th August 1958 so he was born in 1914, I remember my father telling me about where he lived as a boy and his grandfather died before he was born, my father was born in 1936 his father married in 1935 the family lived in Rosebud cottages (Abercorn drive ) as it is now known in Ballyclare county Antrim, my father did manage to find out he was buried in the local cemetery but couldn't find the grave when he went there.
So I am wondering what is the next step and best way to find out anything else about Samuel shields or his Father Robert?
Thank you so much if you are still reading this is the first steps in finding my family ancestry and I suppose this is the easy part. At least he wasn't called John Smith.
I await your replies and have a lovely day.
Best wishes Gary.
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Welcome to RootsChat.
He may not have been born in 1914, the age on his death cert would depend on the month of his birthday also death Certs depend on the informant having the correct information, in other words they are often incorrect.
Is Shields his mother's maiden name. It may not be on his first name on his birth cert, quite possible he is registered as Samuel Wallece.
I see two possibles in 1914 and another 1913 but none have mother's name as Shields.
Do you know of any siblings?
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Larne Times 8th Nov 1951 mentions a man of that name under title ''coat of arms''
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ic8/
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I've just replied to other post on someone else's thread-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=754414.msg6041061#msg6041061
If he was illegitimate then birth would be registered under whatever his mother's surname was, Robert Wallace could have been step-father, etc.
my father did manage to find out he was buried in the local cemetery but couldn't find the grave when he went there.
Did he have the plot details or was he just looking for a gravestone? it may be that the family didn't put up a stone and you'll need to check cemetery records (whichever one it is).
How do you know that his father was Robert Wallace? what was Robert's occupation? What religion were the family?
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There are 3 Wallece children with mother Shields, Albert 1914 William 1911 Anna 1910 all registered Belfast. Could be more later.
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A Robert Wallace married Isabella Shields 17 Dec.1916 Larne district-
http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/4f84b56524779
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There are 3 Wallece children with mother Shields, Albert 1914 William 1911 Anna 1910 all registered Belfast. Could be more later.
Probably children of William Wallace & Martha Shields who married in Belfast 7 Dec.1909-
http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/dcd2706689343
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A Robert Wallace married Isabella Shields 17 Dec.1916 Larne district-
http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/4f84b56524779
There is a birth for a Samuel Sheils 23 Jan.1914 Larne district, Carrickfergus sub-district (no mother's name in GRONI's index which indicates an illegitimate child).
http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/c59db50093031
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Just posting in case I can't find it again-
Robert Wallace (age 31) died 29 Aug.1928 Larne district, Carrickfergus sub-district
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A Robert Wallace married Isabella Shields 17 Dec.1916 Larne district-
http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/4f84b56524779
From other free database search he's Robert Hugh Wallace (son of Henry) and she's Isabella Shields (daughter of James).
Thought this might be the correct Robert Hugh Wallace but his father also Robert Hugh-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Carrickfergus_Rural/Middle_Division/991564
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Carrickfergus_Urban/Unity_Street/192849
If this turns out to be your family it will be an interesting one to trace- Isabella Shields, daughter of James, mother born in Australia!
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Carrickfergus/Lancasterion_Street/992935
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Carrickfergus_Urban/Lancasterian_Street/192499
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Larne Times 8th Nov 1951 mentions a man of that name under title ''coat of arms''
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ic8/
This newspaper article confirms the date of marriage. Samuel Wallace married his wife Jane on 23 April 1935, GRONI online has the civil marriage record (reg. no. M/1935/P1/2076/4/69), choose the 'Full view' option to see a digitised image of the pertinent part of the original certificate.
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Regarding the birth of Samuel Sheils on 23 January 1914 registered Larne district, Carrickfergus sub-district, the mother's name was Isabella Sheils.
Regarding the 1916 marriage of Robert Wallace and Isabella Shields in St. Nicholas' Church of Ireland, Carrickfergus, just to note that Isabella's address was Lancasterian Street which fits with the previously posted 1901 and 1911 census returns. However, groom Robert Hugh Wallace was recorded as a full aged widower and a Sergeant Major, with an address of the local Sunnylands Camp, his father (Henry) was given as a shopkeeper. Robert Hugh Wallace senior in the 1901 census at house 31 in Middle Division, Carrickfergus Rural (and in the 1911 census at house 22 in Unity Street, Carrickfergus) was married in Woodburn Presbyterian Church, Carrickfergus, to Jeannie Wilson in 1888, then Jane Bell in 1890, in both cases, his father was given as Thomas Wallace, a farmer.
Edited to add: There is an old local newspaper reference that 'During the Great War over 1,000 troops were stationed at Sunnylands Camp' and another reference to indicate that the Royal Irish Rifles were amongst those stationed.
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Larne Times 8th Nov 1951 mentions a man of that name under title ''coat of arms''
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ic8/
This newspaper article confirms the date of marriage. Samuel Wallace married his wife Jane on 23 April 1935, GRONI online has the civil marriage record (reg. no. M/1935/P1/2076/4/69), choose the 'Full view' option to see a digitised image of the pertinent part of the original certificate.
Hi I am sorry for the late reply, that is indeed the certificate my sister has, my late father somehow bought a copy of it.
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/siamblue/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-08/9C9E9E6D-4E51-4DE7-A4A5-75DA4D668C74_zpsh2o3ks8i.jpg) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/siamblue/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-08/9C9E9E6D-4E51-4DE7-A4A5-75DA4D668C74_zpsh2o3ks8i.jpg.html)
I have also found out my grandfather married Annie Wallace her maiden name was McClean and they lived in Abercorn drive as well.
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/siamblue/received_10154616823339714_zpsyiutpc1b.jpeg) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/siamblue/media/received_10154616823339714_zpsyiutpc1b.jpeg.html)
I have an Aunty still alive she is Janes eldest daughter, so Samuel Shields would've have been her step father but her father was living in the cottage next door, so it looks like Jane and Samuel Shields went on to marry people in the same road after their divorce.
I need to find Samuel Shields birthdate some how, does anyone know if I can ask or get one from Groni?
As to the divorce in that paper clipping I cannot read it as I am not a paying member.
I am really really grateful for all of your help, I imagine I will come up against a brick wall. As there is hardly anything regarding Samuel Shields birth.
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A Robert Wallace married Isabella Shields 17 Dec.1916 Larne district-
http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/4f84b56524779
From other free database search he's Robert Hugh Wallace (son of Henry) and she's Isabella Shields (daughter of James).
Thought this might be the correct Robert Hugh Wallace but his father also Robert Hugh-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Carrickfergus_Rural/Middle_Division/991564
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Carrickfergus_Urban/Unity_Street/192849
If this turns out to be your family it will be an interesting one to trace- Isabella Shields, daughter of James, mother born in Australia!
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Carrickfergus/Lancasterion_Street/992935
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Carrickfergus_Urban/Lancasterian_Street/192499
Aghadowey, I saw that when searching through the records, it seems very coincidental that it is a Robert Wallace and a lady called Shields. It was like someone had kicked me lol.
I have been searching for hours every day now for 3 days, even my wife is searching, I guess I need to get that elusive Samuel Shields birth certificate.
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Also I found this info on the web, another coincidence? Seeing as you said Robert was in the Army.
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/siamblue/received_10154616948184714_zpstnuwitrt.jpeg) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/siamblue/media/received_10154616948184714_zpstnuwitrt.jpeg.html)
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/siamblue/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-08/62AF76B2-0113-46AD-8769-3E4B99D66755_zpsgbsix8e5.png) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/siamblue/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-08/62AF76B2-0113-46AD-8769-3E4B99D66755_zpsgbsix8e5.png.html)
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I subsequently found this about the R H Wallace.
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/siamblue/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-08/27020FB8-8EF5-4190-A040-89AFF0D8E870_zpsguopa4cc.png) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/siamblue/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-08/27020FB8-8EF5-4190-A040-89AFF0D8E870_zpsguopa4cc.png.html)
https://www.facebook.com/CarrickfergusRollOfHonour/photos/a.557265724326186.1073741828.557262674326491/773881985997891/?type=3&theater
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... As to the divorce in that paper clipping I cannot read it as I am not a paying member ...
I've sent you a pm about this.
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https://www.facebook.com/CarrickfergusRollOfHonour/photos/a.557265724326186.1073741828.557262674326491/773881985997891/?type=3&theater
Well done in finding the facebook reference, the CWGC website also says 'Son of Robert and Mary Wallace', at odds with his father's name 'Henry' recorded in the 1916 marriage though:
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/471466/WALLACE,%20R%20H
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It is confirmed from the birth record of Samuel Sheils on 23 January 1914 that mother Isabella Sheils gave birth to him at home in Lancasterian Street, Carrickfergus. This, added to the knowledge that an Isabella Shields of Lancasterian Street married Sergeant Major Robert Hugh Wallace in December 1916 presents a reasonable possibility for the parentage of Samuel Shields Wallace who cited his father as Robert Wallace (deceased) when he got married in April 1935.
Robert Hugh Wallace's background still needs resolution (hopefully someone will respond to your faceboook post), but turning to Isabella Shields, GRONI online has a birth on 8 August 1885 registered in Carrickfergus sub-district within Larne district under 'Isabella Sheals', the parents given as James Sheals and Sarah McMillen. GRONI online also has a birth for a James Sheals on 1 October 1884, registered in Larne district with mother's maiden name McMillen, also a birth for a Mary Shields born on 16 March 1887, registered in Larne district, mother's maiden name McMillan - these are a satisfactory 'fit' for Isabella's siblings shown in the 1901 and 1911 Lancasterian Street census returns.
There is a marriage that looks possible in the form of James Shields who married Sarah Jane McMillan on 6 January 1884 in St. Anne's Church of Ireland Belfast. Bachelor James was a 25 year old sailor living at 23 Brussels Street, the son of James Shields, a fisherman, spinster Sarah Jane was a 23 year old servant living at 33 Wesley Street, the daughter of James McMillan, a carpenter. A John Watson and Isabella McMillan were witnesses.
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A Robert Wallace married Isabella Shields 17 Dec.1916 Larne district-
http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/4f84b56524779
From other free database search he's Robert Hugh Wallace (son of Henry) and she's Isabella Shields (daughter of James).
Thought this might be the correct Robert Hugh Wallace but his father also Robert Hugh-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Carrickfergus_Rural/Middle_Division/991564
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Carrickfergus_Urban/Unity_Street/192849
If this turns out to be your family it will be an interesting one to trace- Isabella Shields, daughter of James, mother born in Australia!
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Carrickfergus/Lancasterion_Street/992935
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Carrickfergus_Urban/Lancasterian_Street/192499
Hi Gaffy in the above for Robert H the ages are wrong for the CSM Robert H Wallace of the 2nd batt Royal Irish Rifles serial no 5619, in the 1901 census the soldier would've been 18 yrs old.
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Also there are only 2 possibilities of Robert being 18 in the 1901 census,
The 2 below are the 4th of March and the 20th of March.
One is in Antrim.
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/siamblue/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-08/ED9133C9-4DF7-474F-81D8-41FE0953F47E_zpsvvycabrl.png) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/siamblue/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-08/ED9133C9-4DF7-474F-81D8-41FE0953F47E_zpsvvycabrl.png.html)
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I suppose if I get his service records then I will have his DOB.
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Hi just some update from today I feel like bursting into tears it is so emotional what I am trying to do, I have become obsessed now with finding out about the Robert Wallace.
This is the journey it took me on today.
For the following info it is starting to all tie in together now, except Robert wasnt 34 when he died he was 40 years old. He was born I guess the 28th May 1882 for his age of 34 or thereabouts from the above attachment,
I managed to stumble across this on my searches which took me in a whole new direction too Newtownards Co Down. It was a memorial page and it opened up a whole new episode.
So I searched for Wallaces in Newtownards Co Down and not Co Antrim,
Then this nugget of info came up.
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/siamblue/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-08/C11659AD-D382-4C87-813B-5DB185D4B837_zpsxrxxmqge.png) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/siamblue/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-08/C11659AD-D382-4C87-813B-5DB185D4B837_zpsxrxxmqge.png.html)
Now I had an address so back to the census,
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/siamblue/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-08/8933B41C-608F-43A6-92F4-82115CCB840E_zpsmxsgx4kb.png) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/siamblue/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-08/8933B41C-608F-43A6-92F4-82115CCB840E_zpsmxsgx4kb.png.html)
I clicked on the link and it is indeed Company Sargeant Major Robert Wallace, so he probably moved to Carrickfergus for the start of the war. As he would've been stationed there, he also fought in the Boer War South Africa campaign on the 3rd January 1898 and served in the army for over 17 years.
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/siamblue/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-08/B04EFAB9-5D88-4843-9247-1FF8876F5AB9_zpsnj9er3xp.png) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/siamblue/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-08/B04EFAB9-5D88-4843-9247-1FF8876F5AB9_zpsnj9er3xp.png.html)
Aged 34 in 1911 census living in Newtownards,
I think his birthdate now is 20th July 1878 but I will he we to look into that further.
Now I know why Samuel shields was illegitimate because Robert couldn't marry because he was already married and his wife was probably dead but he was still married.she was called Elizabeth from the census.
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You are only allowed to post certain images on Rootschat (snippets for deciphering purposes, etc.) and as many of the images you've posted are either copyright or against terms and conditions of those websites you will need to remove some of them :-\
Wallace is a very common surname in Ulster and Isabella is not uncommon amongst them so take care that you don't end up following the wrong people.
Here's a link to Robert Wallace & family in 1911-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Newtownards_Urban/John_Street/269555
Added- birth registration: Charles Wallace born 10 June 1909 Newtownards district (mother Smyth)
It's possible that
1) his wife Elizabeth died before 1916
and
2) he was not the father of Samuel Shields who was born in 1914 (a baptism for Samuel might throw some light on this)
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Hi I am sorry if I infringed the copyrights, I wasn't aware I have deleted a couple and will delete the others if you so wish,
I was sent an email this afternoon with a picture of his gravestone and the person said to me he won't have a death certificate as he died in France also on his memorial to the gravestone it states his mother and father were Robert and Mary from Ballymena Co Amtrim.
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Just a possibility in Meerut for the daughter:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGW8-V9L
In the 1916 marriage of Robert Hugh Wallace to Isabella Shields, Robert was a widower. But I repeat the anomaly from a previous post, his father was given as Henry Wallace, a shopkeeper. On first glance, no immediate sign of a Robert Wallace - Smyth marriage or an Elizabeth Wallace death, they may well have occurred outside Ireland.
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Thank you Gaffin, I will have to pay for his service records then that will give me his correct DOB and I can then get his birth certificate .
You have been ever so helpful.
Regards Gary
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Possible marriage?
Robert Wallace to Lizzie Smyth 30 Mar.1905 Dublin South
http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/214b176795828
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Could this be the child who was deceased before 1911?
Birth of UNKNOWN (female) WALLACE on 15 January 1906 Dublin (mother Smyth)-
http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/b70cea0906151
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Possible death?
Elizabeth Wallace, age 34, Jan./Mar.1916 Dublin South-
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FRKJ-TPB
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Hi sorry for the delay in getting back to you all.
I have managed to find some more info out about Robert.
His birthdate is 10th October 1876 and he was born in Ballymena Co Amtrim to a Henry and Eliza (Elizabeth?) they lived in Mount Street Ballymena in the census,
Henry was a shoe maker, Henry had 3 other siblings Mary Apr 16th 1878, Jane Aug 19th 1879 and Gordon Feb 1886 the whole family moved to Canada in the early part of 1900. Except Robert as he was in the army and living with his wife in John St Newtownards.
I am really stuck on finding anything out about the Shields side,
Isabella died in 13th October 1918 aged 33 from influenza 21 days she had it for, her mother Sarah was at her side in Lancasterian St Carrick.
So that is why my grandfather was adopted as both of his parents were dead when he was 4 years old.
Robert and Isabella were both church of Ireland now my family are all Presbyterian as it was passed down from Samuel S, so whoever his adoptive parents were, were Presbyterian, the family next door who were at his birth Mary McAnally they were the same religion,
I am not sure but if he was registered adoptive surely he would lose his real name and take on the new family name ? But he kept his mother and fathers name. Isabella's family were COI they wouldn't have made Samuel S Presbyterian, so I don't think they took him on, but why didn't they ?
Thanks for reading and keeping up with this thread.
Regards Gary.
Ps I found a shipping departure journey for Samuel Shields in 1953 and he went too Quebec Canada and returned a year later aged 40. He was then living at 173 Loughside Shire road Belfast
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Sorry I forgot to say, I found a family tree from the Binsted family and they had all of Roberts brothers and sister in the tree including his mother and father, but Robert was named but no details were entered.
Henry his father died aged 103 in 1925 and his mother Eliza in the same year but she was 78 they had been married for 50yrs and all died and were buried in Ontario Canada. The same as Roberts brothers and sisters.
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http://www.calais.fr/arch-web/annee_1917/1917-0330.pdf
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https://www.facebook.com/CarrickfergusRollOfHonour/photos/a.557265724326186.1073741828.557262674326491/773881985997891/?type=3&theater
Well done in finding the facebook reference, the CWGC website also says 'Son of Robert and Mary Wallace', at odds with his father's name 'Henry' recorded in the 1916 marriage though:
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/471466/WALLACE,%20R%20H
The Robert and Mary bit has confused me, unless it was from Elizabeth's side his first wife?
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(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/siamblue/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-09/05492C47-74BB-4D7E-B369-0813212FBF09_zps3jwnsfje.jpg) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/siamblue/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-09/05492C47-74BB-4D7E-B369-0813212FBF09_zps3jwnsfje.jpg.html)
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=QcR122&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&db=websearch-4150&gss=angs-d&new=1&rank=1&msT=1&gsfn=Henry&gsfn_x=0&gsln=Wallace&gsln_x=0&msypn__ftp=Mount,%20st,%20Ballymena,%20Antrim,%20Northern%20Ireland&msypn=1703299&msypn_PInfo=8-%7C0%7C0%7C3257%7C1652383%7C0%7C0%7C0%7C5293%7C1703299%7C0%7C0%7C&MSAV=1&cpxt=1&cp=8&catbucket=rstp&uidh=a86&pcat=35&fh=0&h=9101285&recoff=&ml_rpos=1
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=QcR136&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&db=FSIrelandBirth&gss=angs-d&new=1&rank=1&gsfn=Robert&gsfn_x=0&gsln=Wallace&gsln_x=0&msypn__ftp=Mount,%20st,%20Ballymena,%20Antrim,%20Northern%20Ireland&msypn=1703299&MSAV=1&uidh=a86&pcat=34&fh=0&h=601424&recoff=&ml_rpos=1
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/siamblue/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-08/64C14EFC-B1A8-4A20-BFCD-8FD19DEE881B_zpsxpzvudt5.png) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/siamblue/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-08/64C14EFC-B1A8-4A20-BFCD-8FD19DEE881B_zpsxpzvudt5.png.html)
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Adoption in Northern Ireland didn't start until the 1920s- earlier what is called 'adoption' was almost always an informal arrangement whereby a child was looked after by relatives or family friends. It was common for a young child to keep their birth name or two be known by either their birth surname and/or another surname.
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Hi fellow members, I just thought I would do an update furthermore to what I have found out about the Wallace family.
I have had a DNA test done and the Gt grandniece of Robert Wallace who I found via my searching we are not related so my Real family biological name is not Wallace.
I also have been doing some other reasearch and I noticed a name in my DNA geographic area of a McCune which came up twice in Carrickfergus I messaged a lady and she said that the McCune was linked in her family tree via a man called Caughey this is the message she sent to me.
It ties up between Isabella Shields and Robert Wallace as well.
kerr53
One possibility is my great grandfather - William John Caughey and our shared cM would allow for a half second cousin relationship. He lived on the Albert Road in Carrick and the date would correlate between the death of my great grandmother in 1910 & him marrying her cousin in 1918. My grandfather was raised by his maternal grandparents & did not have a good relationship with his father. William John was a sailor.
Does anyone know how to make a better link between William J Caughey and that Samuel Shields could infact be his biological son ?
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To avoid duplicating searches and posts here's a link to new topic on William John Caughey with several replies already-
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=881074.msg7535789#msg7535789