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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: xxxxx78678 on Sunday 14 August 16 05:32 BST (UK)
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Looking for birth information on my great x5 grandfather Joseph Hulbert born circa 1793 in, I believe, St Leonard's Shoreditch. He married Ann Butfoy in 1813 and they lived and had children in Bethnal Green (my line is through their daughter Emma Hulbert Sheen).
BUTFOY is a Huguenot name, and I can trace that line right back to 1615 France. There are family rumours that HULBERT is French or German. I am trying to figure out where the HULBERTs came from and if they were also Huguenots. So any help finding Joseph's parents would be very appreciated.
There may have been a variation in spelling such as HOULBERT, HOLBERT or HOLDEBERT which might explain why I am having so much trouble.
Thanks in advance!
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There's Joseph Holbert born 17/4/1792 baptised 17/6/1793
St.Leonards, Shoreditch Parents Joseph and Elisabeth
Living in Motley Street
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There's Joseph Holbert born 17/4/1792 baptised 17/6/1793
St.Leonards, Shoreditch Parents Joseph and Elisabeth
Living in Motley Street
Thank you Lily!
That is so good to know. Now I am on the hunt for Joseph and Elisabeth Holbert.
If anyone can help me with finding more children from them or even their marriage records that would be incredible. I really want to know if the Hulberts/Holberts were Huguenots.
tassiedevil97
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There's a George Hulbert bap. 1794 and Elizabeth 1797 both baptised St.Leonards, Shoreditch
And James Hulbert bap. 1800 Bethnal Green
There's also Mary Ann born 1788 at the Lying in Hospital, Holborn - parents Joseph (a baker) and Elizabeth - who it states comes from ?? (It looks like Dotchet, Bucks, but there doesn't seem to be any such place. It's not at all clear)
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There's a George Hulbert bap. 1794 and Elizabeth 1797 both baptised St.Leonards, Shoreditch
And James Hulbert bap. 1800 Bethnal Green
There's also Mary Ann born 1788 at the Lying in Hospital, Holborn - parents Joseph (a baker) and Elizabeth - who it states comes from ?? (It looks like Dotchet, Bucks, but there doesn't seem to be any such place. It's not at all clear)
Thank you again!
Probably is Datchet, Bucks as in Buckinghamshire (which Datchet was a part of). I'm not too sure if there were many Huguenots in Datchet around that time. I don't think so. Looking like Elisabeth or even Joseph may not be Huguenot after all.
Struggling so much with this line!
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I think Mary Ann probably isn't a child of your Joseph and Elisabeth.
Too much of an age gap.
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Yes I think you are right! I have just realised this myself.
Can you find anything about this marriage? Anything that might record the parents of Joseph? It might give us some clues
Ann Hulbert (born Butfoy) and Joseph Hulbert
married Apr 11 1813
Stepney/Tower Hamlets, Middlesex, England
Also it is worth noting that this Joseph was a silk weaver (common Huguenot trade). I am confused as to whether or not this man is from a Huguenot family or just married a Huguenot woman...
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Hi, Just for info but?
1. Joseph Hulbert married Elizabeth Nash 6.12.1778 st james westminster
2.William Hulbert son of Joseph Hubert and Annie BUTFRY died 1.1.1899 aged 81 Salt Lake City s l Utah- occ trunk maker. He was a widower.
John
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The Admission Registers for the French Protestant Hospital (transcript published by the Huguenot Society) have entries for Eliza Hudswell nee Hulbert and Christiana Jackson nee Hulbert. The details suggest both were admitted because of their mother being a descendant of the Butfoy refugee family. There is no mention of their father also being descended from Huguenot or Walloon refugees, normally details would be included if both parent's had eligibility.
While many Huguenots and Walloons were silk weavers, it was also a profession practiced by other non-French protestant families. I have a number that weren't, as well as some that have proven to be, so while it is a clue, it doesn't mean that will definitely be the case.
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Hi, Just for info but?
1. Joseph Hulbert married Elizabeth Nash 6.12.1778 st james westminster
One of the witnesses to this marriage was a William Hulbert. It looks possible that Joseph may have remarried in 1804 at Stepney St Dunstan to Mary Bell, he was a widower, she a spinster. The signature looks very similar to the 1778 marriage and would place Joseph in the same parish as Joseph junior who married there in 1818.
Edit - if they are the correct couple they must have had other children elsewhere between 1778 and Joseph's baptism in 1793 at Shoreditch St Leonard.
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There is a John Hulbert son of Joseph and Elizabeth baptised 26 Sept 1779 at St George Hanover Square. No other details on the entry.
There do appear to be a number of Hulbert entries in the parish registers for various Westminster parishes, albeit there doesn't appear to be a baptism for the earlier Joseph. They are viewable on Findmypast. There is a John Hulbert marrying in St Ann Soho in 1767, although there appear to be two John Hulbert's in the area as there are children baptised in St Clement Danes, St George Hanover Square and St James Piccadilly after that date and they overlap so can't be the same couple. None of the baptisms sadly have a mother's name included to confirm which couple.
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There's a George Hulbert bap. 1794 and Elizabeth 1797 both baptised St.Leonards, Shoreditch
There is a George Hulbert marrying Mary Patterson at Christ Church Spitalfields on 11 Dec 1814. No obvious Hulbert connection with the witnesses but there is a George and Mary residing in Bethnal Green on 1841 in Bethnal Green and 1851 and 1861 in Shoreditch, listed as born Shoreditch c1794.
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Hi, Just for info but?
1. Joseph Hulbert married Elizabeth Nash 6.12.1778 st james westminster
2.William Hulbert son of Joseph Hubert and Annie BUTFRY died 1.1.1899 aged 81 Salt Lake City s l Utah- occ trunk maker. He was a widower.
Sorry not helping with Huguenot name or Joseph's parents
for info...... just in case you don't have this
Details for 1899 death on familysearch http://www.rootschat.com/links/01i7h/
also some deaths of William Hulbert & his second wife Jane Horsnell's children in Salt Lake
Sometimes naming patterns of the children may give a clue to parents/grandparents/siblings names
1841- 1871c Joseph HULBERT married to Ann living Wilmott Street Bethnal Green
born between c1792-1796 (from ages given on censuses)
1841c his occ. Silk Weaver on 1871c (widowed) his occupation listed as Undertaker
Joseph & Ann's children’s names from 1841 – 1851 census appear to be
Harriet, Caroline, Emma, Christiana, Clara, Thomas, Hester
Their son William occ. S. Weaver on the same 1841 census in Wilmott St
age 20 listed with Thomas & James Boys & Caroline Hulbert age 20
Looks as if William (b1818), married a Caroline Harriet Menote, 29 March 1841 St Matthew Bethnal
In 1851c living Squirries Street, St Matthew Bethnal Green,
William Hulbert occ Silk Weaver, their children named William, Caroline, Joseph, Thomas, Clara
In 1861 William is living in Hackney with new wife Jane (nee Horsnell) plus additional children
Henry, Alice & Arthur
Familysearch has these children born to Joseph Hulbert & Ann all ch. St Matthew’s Bethnal Green http://www.rootschat.com/links/01i7j/
Ann 1814, William 1817, Eliza 1819, Harriet Eleanor 1821, Caroline 1823,
Emma 1825, Louisa 1827, Christiana 1829, Clara 1831, Thomas George 1833,
Hester 1833
London, Docklands & East End Bpt 1858 – 1933
Ann b 12 Oct bpt 6 Nov 1814 address Wilmott Street
William b 31 Jan 1817 bp 23 Feb address Pit St
Eliza b 30 May 1819 bp 20 Jun address Pit St
Parents Joseph (Weaver) & Ann
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Thank you everyone so much for your help!
The Admission Registers for the French Protestant Hospital (transcript published by the Huguenot Society) have entries for Eliza Hudswell nee Hulbert and Christiana Jackson nee Hulbert. The details suggest both were admitted because of their mother being a descendant of the Butfoy refugee family. There is no mention of their father also being descended from Huguenot or Walloon refugees, normally details would be included if both parent's had eligibility.
While many Huguenots and Walloons were silk weavers, it was also a profession practiced by other non-French protestant families. I have a number that weren't, as well as some that have proven to be, so while it is a clue, it doesn't mean that will definitely be the case.
Thank you smudwhisk this is quite interesting. Are they the only entries for Hulbert? Or other spelling variations?
Hi, Just for info but?
1. Joseph Hulbert married Elizabeth Nash 6.12.1778 st james westminster
One of the witnesses to this marriage was a William Hulbert. It looks possible that Joseph may have remarried in 1804 at Stepney St Dunstan to Mary Bell, he was a widower, she a spinster. The signature looks very similar to the 1778 marriage and would place Joseph in the same parish as Joseph junior who married there in 1818.
Edit - if they are the correct couple they must have had other children elsewhere between 1778 and Joseph's baptism in 1793 at Shoreditch St Leonard.
Hmm.. William could be a brother? Or perhaps even Joseph's father? If this marriage is the right one, I found an Elizabeth Nash born Sep 19, 1760; christened Oct 5 1760, Saint Leonards, Shoreditch to Daniel Nash and Eleanor. That would make her 18 at the time of marriage. NASH is definitely not Huguenot!
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NASH is definitely not Huguenot!
Actually I could very well be wrong about this. I just found an entry for NASH (1700s LND ENG) on a Huguenot surnames index: https://www.aftc.com.au/Huguenot/Hug.html that doesn't actually prove anything at all, but it might be a clue. Smudwhisk, could you please do a search for NASH on the Hospital register? Thanks in advance. ;D
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There were two possible Elizabeth Nashs baptised in Datchet.
1757 parents William and Martha and 1759 parents William and Ann
There were a lot of Huguenots in Buckinghamshire because it was a lace-making area.
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Thank you smudwhisk this is quite interesting. Are they the only entries for Hulbert? Or other spelling variations?
No those were the other two.
There are no Nash entries.
There were two possible Elizabeth Nashs baptised in Datchet.
1757 parents William and Martha and 1759 parents William and Ann
There were a lot of Huguenots in Buckinghamshire because it was a lace-making area.
There are a lot of Hulberts appearing in records from the 1500s in various areas. While its not impossible that the Holborn Lying-in Hospital Hulbert baptism was the same family (there does appear to be a gap in children's baptisms), evidence would need to be found to confirm that the Joseph (who with wife Elizabeth baptised children later in Shoreditch) was indeed a baker by profession. I suspect if a search was done for the surname in Buckinghamshire, there would be other entries. Buckinghamshire Family History Society do provide a surname search facility of their parish register transcripts which would help in either eliminating that possibility or be a step towards confirming. However the Datchet Joseph Hulbert is listed as being a Baker and not a Silk Weaver.
As for Buckinghamshire's lace making industry, there appears to be a lot of debate about whether it was a result of Huguenot emigrees or had already started.
NASH is definitely not Huguenot!
Actually I could very well be wrong about this. I just found an entry for NASH (1700s LND ENG) on a Huguenot surnames index: https://www.aftc.com.au/Huguenot/Hug.html that doesn't actually prove anything at all, but it might be a clue. Smudwhisk, could you please do a search for NASH on the Hospital register? Thanks in advance. ;D
Just because a surname appears on a list of Huguenot surnames does not mean everyone with that surname is of Huguenot descent. For example, the surname Lucas or Lukas appears quite a lot in the registers of the Canterbury Walloon church, but it also appears in parish registers from the 1500s. Yes some may be of Huguenot stock but many are unlikely to be.
A French sounding surname could simply mean that a family of that name or a variant emigrated to England from the medieval period onwards and the surname did not become completely anglicised.
One of the major problems with proving a Huguenot / Walloon ancestor relates to whether they appear in the records of any of the Huguenot or Walloon churches in the UK. From memory the only "new member" (Tresmoignanges) records that survive are for the large Threadneedle Street French church in London. However, not all those who baptised children in even that church appear in the records. It can be very difficult to prove an ancestor was of Huguenot descent, something I know quite well from experience.
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I agree with you smudwhisk I've not been comfortable with the 1778 marriage. It seems more likely that their children named Joseph and Elizabeth would have been among their earlier children.
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The Joseph Hulbert who married in 1778 does though seem likely to be the one who remarried in Stepney St Dunstan in 1804, the signature is very, very similar, albeit I cannot so far find a burial for his wife Elizabeth. However, from my own experience of researching that period in London, there are quite a lot of missing burial entries (even when checking the original microfilm copies and not relying on online original records). I agree you would have expected them to have had a Joseph and Elizabeth earlier but there is a large gap and there may be a reason for that. One of my own direct ancestors married in Jan 1805, had their first child born in Jan 1806 but then no others until a daughter born in 1815 (so far no baptism found, but other documentary evidence does suggest she is theirs). They then baptised seven children between 1817 and 1827. I did wonder if it was the same couple, but it turns out that the husband, although a silk dyer by profession, joined the navy in 1806 just as his first child was born, and didn't leave until 1815. That was why there was such a gap in children. Two of their later children attended the Greenwich Hospital School which confirmed they were the same couple. So a gap doesn't necessarily mean they cannot be the same couple, they could just have lost a number of children at birth.
In the case of Joseph and Elizabeth Hulbert, to be honest I think its more likely, in light of the 1804 marriage, that the 1778 marriage could well be them, as opposed to the Datchet Joseph Hulbert. I think tassiedevil needs to get a Bucks FHS search done on Hulbert for that period to see if they are in the county and stay there. Its possible although one child was born in London, they could have returned. It did happen to one of my ancestors, three born in London (two in the same Lying-in Hospital) and then the husband got himself convicted of theft and sentenced to 3 years hard labour and a number of month's later the wife and two surviving children were sent back to Devizes because they couldn't look after themselves. They did later return to London.
I am not convinced from what I've seen that Joseph Hulbert (or for that matter Elizabeth Nash if the marriage is correct0 are of Huguenot descent, I really would have expected it to have been mentioned in the two Huguenot Hospital admission records. Added to that is the fact that there do appear to be a lot of Hulberts about and Nash isn't that uncommon a surname either.
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There's a George Hulbert bap. 1794 and Elizabeth 1797 both baptised St.Leonards, Shoreditch
There is an Elizabeth Hulbert burial aged 2 years 9 months in the Gibralter Row Burial Ground at Bethnal Green (non-denominational cemetery). Its possible that could be Elizabeth as I couldn't see a marriage for her, but it could of course be another Elizabeth.
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If Joseph remarried in 1804, then Elizabeth must have died between 1800 - 1804
I know a lot of burial records are missing, but putting in these dates on FindMyPast fetches up only two options: Elizabeth Hulbert Parker dd.1803 in Westminster and Elizabeth Hulbert died 1803 in Datchet!
I thought we'd dismissed this one, but it's still there.
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I know a lot of burial records are missing, but putting in these dates on FindMyPast fetches up only two options: Elizabeth Hulbert Parker dd.1803 in Westminster and Elizabeth Hulbert died 1803 in Datchet!
Findmypast only have Westminster and (probably, as I know some are not on there) London non-denominational / non-conformist burials. Most, as I suspect you are aware, for London are on Ancestry.
While the 1803 Datchet burial is interesting, as I have already posted, TD needs to get a county-wide search done for Buckinghamshire to see if it can help confirm or refute a possible Datchet connection. Its not that expensive.
FindMyPast coverage for Buckinghamshire isn't likely to be complete (the Family History Society do not as far as I am aware have any parish record transcripts on there), nor will anything on Familysearch be complete.
Hulbert appears to be quite a common name and Joseph and Elizabeth are not unusual. The 1804 marriage states "of this parish" and yes I know that only refers to the preceding three weeks for banns, I suspect the 1803 burial could just be a coincidence.
Caution definitely needs to be taken in relation to the Datchet and Shoreditch/Stepney possible connection. While it is possible, there could well be other answers as to why there could be a gap in baptisms if indeed the 1778 marriage is correct. At least a search on Bucks FHS Baptisms/Marriages/Burial transcripts may shed light on whether the "London" couple could have a connection with Buckinghamshire.