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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lincolnshire => Topic started by: colincam on Tuesday 09 August 16 17:43 BST (UK)
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I found the following family living at 114 Wood Street, Grimsby in the 1901 Census that interests me very much.
Name Relation Age Occupation Where born
Bella Campbell Boarder 24 Housekeeper Scotland
William F Campbell Son 4 Scotland
Harry F Campbell Son 3 Lincs, Grimsby
The family bears a striking resemblance to that of a Bella Ann Eliza Campbell b 1876 Durris, Kincardineshire who gave birth to an illegitimate child named William Campbell in 1896 also in Durris, Kincardineshire. Geographically, Durris is located on the outskirts of Aberdeen which used to have strong links with Grimsby through fishing. Sadly I believe Bella may have died in 1907 but not in Scotland. Can anyone help me find out what happened to this family?
colincam
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Did see these baptisms for 3 children that could possibly be the the ones in the 1901 census apart from the daughter
William Fyfe Campbell , Harry Fyfe Campbell ,Mary Isabel Fyfe Campbell all baptized 30 June 1905 at St John the Evangelist Clee Lincoln mother Bella Campbell no mention of a father ...I would have a guess and say maybe Fyfe as all children have that as a middle name
Rosie
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Sadly I believe Bella may have died in 1907 but not in Scotland
I can't see any deaths of Bella Campbell around that time on Freebmd, what makes you think that she died?
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I was just typing the same question as Groom -- she is not on the England and Wales Death Index around the time you think she died.
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Do you have the birth certificate for William in Duris as there is a death for a William Campbell Fyfe gives a birth date of 22/12/1896 died March 1980 age 83 Camberwell London .Can't post details of 1911 Census but birth place is Durris
Possible for Harry Campbell Fyfe June 1970 Grimsby
Rosie
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In that case it would also be worth checking the 1939 register and WW1 Army records (if the latter exist they will show next of kin and whether they are married).
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Looks like a Harry C Fyfe married in Grimsby in 1916.
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In 1939 Harry C Fyfe born 18 Dec 1897 is in Grimsby with a wife Lilian and someone else born after 1916. He is an Oxy Acetylene Welder and an ARP Warden.
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The father they are with was born Aberdeen William Fyfe 1870 might be possible death 1945 Grimsby not seeing anything for Bella ???
Rosie
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Hi all
Many thanks for your interest in my query
I think you are definitely on the right lines. To answer your queries,
1. Yes William's birth date is 22 Dec 1896. His name on the birth record is William Campbell
2. Bella's death is recorded on the family gravestone in Durris Cemetery as occuring when she was aged 31 so she could also have died in 1908.
Several questions now arise
If the above is correct, who was looking after the children in the 1911 Census when they would only have been aged 14 and 13?
Where did Bella die?
Presumably William Fyfe b 1870 Aberdeen is the children's father? I should be able to find him in ScotlandsPeople
Regards
colincam
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Looks like we have found the death Isobel Campbell Fyfe birth year 1876 died Oct --Dec 1907 Grimsby age 31
Rosie ;)
I have the grave inscriptions book for Durris and the age matches for Bella A E Campbell age31
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Looks like we have found the death Isobel Campbell Fyfe birth year 1876 died Oct --Dec 1907 Grimsby age 31
Rosie ;)
Looks good - that's why we couldn't find the death under Bella Campbell. ;D
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In 1911, in Cleethorpes, there are:
William M Fyfe, 41, b Aberdeen
William C Fyfe, 14 b Durris
Harry C Fyfe, 13, b Grimsby
All found on familysearch.
They look like a family, but I can't tell, not having a sub to paid sites! ;D
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There is this man -
1891 census Aberdeen
William A M Fyfe 20 yrs Iron Bore b Aberdeen
Christina L Fyfe 19
Margaret Fyfe 2 months
And then in 1911 index in Grimsby
William M Fyfe
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7YV-NVZ
Death 1945 Lincolnshire
William A M Fyfe
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If the above is correct, who was looking after the children in the 1911 Census when they would only have been aged 14 and 13?
They are with their father. ;)
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The two boys are with their father in the 1911 census think the father married again 1912 Grimsby
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Hi all
I am overwhelmed by your response to my query. Thank you very much.
Do you know who William A Fyfe marries in Grimsby in 1912?
I also can't find a marriage for my Bella AE Campbell & William Alexander M Fyfe. Of course there might not be one
I have found marriages for their two sons William and Harry viz Lilian Death & Violet Sartori but haven't looked for one for their daughter Mary Isabel yet.
In fact, are William, Harry and Mary Isabel their only children? There are a total of 3 other Fyfes born in Grimsby between 1901 and 1905
Cheers
colincam
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I can't see a marriage in 1912 ???
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I think it may be Jun 1920 to Jessie R Latimer
colincam
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Yes, that looks very likely.
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But he was William M FYFE in 1911 (and had several children with Mrs ROBERTSON).
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He is William A M Fyfe on death and there is a man of the same name in 1891 Scotland.
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But he was William M FYFE in 1911 (and had several children with Mrs ROBERTSON).
Was he the father of those children? The Robertson marriage was 1906 - they may be children from that marriage.
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I think it may be Jun 1920 to Jessie R Latimer
colincam
I don't think it is the right marriage after all.
Probate record shows:
William Armstrong Fyfe died 1829 - admin to Jessie Rome Latimer Fyfe, widow.
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Obviously I'm not allowed to say that the kids were written as
Fyfe Robertson
or that his housekeeper was Mrs Robertson.
I won't say any more.
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There are these two marriages in Grimsby
Harry Campbell Fife age 18 married in1916 to Lilian Death
His father was William Murry Fife
John Douglas Fife age 22 married an Edith Grace Gautby in1940 His father was William Alexander Murry Fife
Both gave the same address at the marriages 5 Harrington Street
Barleymow
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Obviously I'm not allowed to say that the kids were written as Fyfe Robertson
or that his housekeeper was Mrs Robertson.
I won't say any more.
That's who I was thinking he married although the name is William T Fife to a Margaret Robinson 1912 Grimsby ?
Rosie
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John Douglas Fife age 22 married an Edith Grace Gautby in1940 His father was William Alexander Murry Fife
Both gave the same address at the marriages 5 Harrington Street
Barleymow
[/quote]
This might be the birth for John D Fyfe 1917 Grimsby mothers maiden name Tofton
Probate record for John Douglas Fyfe died 22 January 1944 on war service mentions a Harold Gautby
Rosie
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There are several Tofton /Fyfe births. Mabel Tofton married Mr Robertson so Geoff is probably correct. :)
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You can find details of William Fyfe at www.findagrave.com or www.gravestone photos.com mentions the son who died 1944 prisoner of war camp Thailand
Rosie
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Hi All
I have now had a chance to digest all the information I have been given by you generous people and to do a good bit of digging myself. A couple of questions still remain.
1. What happened to Mary Isabel Campbell or Fyfe b 1904 Grimsby? Since she does not appear in the 1911 Census with her father and brothers, we must presume that she died as an infant. Unfortunately I can’t seem to locate her death.
2. Geoff-E Where did you get the information that Mrs Robertson (Mabel Pauline Tofton) was William Fyfe’s housekeeper and that the children “were written as Robertson”? My information is Mabel Tofton married Frank William Robertson in 1906. They had no children but Mabel (in her maiden name) subsequently had 4 children with William Fyfe viz Alexander b 1913; Christina b 1915; John D b 1917 and Clifford b 1919. Nothing more sinister than that.
Cheers
colincam
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Hello again,
Have you looked at 1911 yourself? You need to do that as we are unable to post any information other than that which is available in the free index.
If you search the index on Family Search for Robertson in Cleethorpes, there may be some clues there.
For example, this looks to be Mary Isobel https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7YV-NV6
Regards
Heywood
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These are the Robertsons in Cleethorpes.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01i6r/
The last ones look to be a family maybe.
There is a birth for Margaret Sylvia Fyfe in 1911, Free BMD.
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Hi Heywood
No I don't have access to the 1911 Census in England. I was relying on what KGarrad told me earlier.
Regards
colincam
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As I have shown, you can access the indexes on Family Search
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I have done so and I am a bit confused or naive
Why is Mary Isabel Fyfe or Campbell living with James Robertson's family. Was she adopted?
Why have other members of the same family got Fyfe as a middle name?
colincam
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The way I would check, is to look at the section 'citing this record' where there is a reference with numbers and letters. I have found that those who are together in the census have similar references.
There is no James Robertson there. ???
If you compare the births of some of the 'Robertson' children e.g Margaret and Mabel, you will see they are registered as Fyfe in civil indexes.
It all points to the couple being together before 1911 and before the subsequent Fyfe/Tofton children.
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Hi Heywood
I have now obtained a copy of the actual 1911 Census return for William Fyfe's household and it has become clearer. But I don't think Mary Isabel should be named a Robertson on the form when she is registered as a Fyfe and Campbell
It will probably not surprise you to know that William Fyfe and Mrs Mabel Robertson nee Tofton had 4 more children after 1911
Regards
colincam
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Hi Heywood
I have now obtained a copy of the actual 1911 Census return for William Fyfe's household and it has become clearer. But I don't think Mary Isabel should be named a Robertson on the form when she is registered as a Fyfe and Campbell
It will probably not surprise you to know that William Fyfe and Mrs Mabel Robertson nee Tofton had 4 more children after 1911
Regards
colincam
Under the Laws of England & Wales, a person has the right to call themselves anything they like! ;D
Just as long as there is no intention to deceive or defraud.
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It does seem odd but you perhaps need to look at the handwriting.
We will never know the reasoning behind 'Robertson' being included but comparing the handwriting may help. I think the householder was supposed to complete the form so look at the signature and the family list etc.
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Hi Heywood
You are right. From 1911 onwards, the head of the household was required to complete UK Census forms.
Thanks for your help.
colincam
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Hi
The Census form shows that Mary Isabel Fyfe or Campbell b 1904 is still living with her father William Fyfe in 1911
In an effort to find out what happened to her after 1911, I have located a marriage of a Mary I Fyfe and a Ben Bingham in Keighley on Mar 1927 and a death of a Mary Bingham in Chapel en le Frith, Derbyshire in Dec 1959 aged 54. These look promising because I would expect Mary to take the name Fyfe rather than Robertson or Campbell and because the age at death fits.
Any views?
colincam
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This death would fit with the marriage you quote:
Mary Isabel Bingham
Birth date 5th November 1904
Death Keighley September quarter 1976 volume 4 pg 0628
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You can also find them in the 1939 register - same information.
Possible daughter born 1930 - she can be found using Freebmd. I won't name her as she could still be alive.
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Hi Groom
What 1939 register are you referring to and where can I get access to it?
Hi Heywood
FreeBMD does not give the death info you quote . What is your source?
colincam
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It is on Free BMD, Colin
and also Family Search - see here (https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3A%22mary%20isabel%22~%20%2Bsurname%3Abingham~%20%2Bdeath_place%3Akeighley%20%2Bdeath_year%3A1976-1976~)
1939 register is on Find My Past. To see all the entry it is by subscription but there is a free index.
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Hi heywood
I see now. The death record you found is a lot better than the one I found. Thanks a lot for that.
colin
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What 1939 register are you referring to and where can I get access to it?
The 1939 register was taken in September 1939 at the start of WW2. It listed the personal details of every civilian in England and Wales and was used to enable the government to issue identity cards and ration books. The records were used when the NHS was started in 1948 and it was updated as people changed names ie through marriage until 1999. The records for anyone who is 100 years or younger remain closed though, unless you can prove they have died.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/1939-register/
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I have just discovered that William Campbell Fyfe may have married (for a second time) an Ivy Louise Waters in Cleethorpes in 1946. She was born in 1905 and died in Camberwell, London in Sep 1985 five years after William. I do not know if Waters is her maiden or a married name.
I think I am nearing the end of my quest for information on the above woman and her subsequent family and would like to thank all those at Rootschat who have helped me. It is very satisfying for all of us to have such a successful outcome.
Thanks
colincam
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Yes, it's great. :)