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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: JWebb89 on Friday 05 August 16 00:19 BST (UK)
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Evening all! :)
Firstly I am new here so my apologies if I am posting this in the wrong place, still getting the hang of things.
I'm wondering if anyone has any advice on finding a past business or trade?
I recently got hold of the correct 1901 census for my great great grandfather which confirmed partly what I already knew but in a bit more detail.
His name was Henry Munday, 33 years old in 1901 - occupation was 'confectionist / tobacconist' - his 'own account' and the workplace is recorded as 'at home'. Home for them was 67 Raynham Road, Upper Edmonton, Middlesex.
I can only imagine by the information given is that address was the address of the shop and the family lived above it as many did. If not, it surely wasn't far away.
By the time the 1911 census comes around he is an 'oil cloth worker' (again, confirming a story of him being a notorious gambler and probably losing the business).
Back to the point, I'd love to know if I can find out any more information. The name of the store, the exact location or the holy grail - a photograph. (Or even what happened to him after 1911).
It doesn't seem like that exact address is there anymore and a quick search of WW2 bomb sites during the blitz shows a drop courtesy of the Luftwaffe right about where it's roof would have been! :-\
Regardless, if anyone could help or offer anymore advice it would be hugely appreciated!
Thanks for reading :)
Joel.
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Sorry I forgot to add, please feel free to private message me also if there is anything you'd like to discuss or anything you would like to ask but I am very open and willing to discuss in the forum :)
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He's listed in 1901 and 1902 Kellys ( London Northern Suburbs) at 67 Raynham Road as "Munday Hy. confectioner"
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Books about Lower Edmonton
http://lower-edmonton.co.uk/site/books.html#leip
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"UPPER EDMONTON.—Nos. 47, 49, 51, 67, and 69 RAYNHAM ROAD. FOUR FREE HOLD HOUSES and ONE SHOP, producing £104 pa"
(Chelmsford Chronicle, March/April 1920)
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That is great, thank you for the help Shaun :)
I have a feeling that's probably all the information I will get on this - with regards to shop name etc, I think I could be looking for something that isn't there.
Cheers guys ;D
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I'm not sure the shop would even have HAD a name.
I suspect that the most there woudl have been was a sign over the door saying "Henry Munday - confectioner and tobacconist"
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I think you are probably right jbml :)
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Name:Henry J Munday
Birth Date: abt 1868
Date of Registration: Mar 1946
Age at Death: 78
Registration district: Edmonton
Inferred County: Middlesex
Volume: 3a
Page: 1091
MM maybe not.His probate says widow was Emily.
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Hi LarkSpur,
Excuse my ignorance but I'm not sure what that information means?
Those striked out details don't seem to match my Henry Munday.
I have him down as Henry Harold Munday born 1872 and his wife's name was Martha. 4 children, Henry AKA Harry Munday (my great grandfather) Alice Munday and Twins Cecil AKA Sid Munday & Edith Munday.
The striked out details you posted, are these of the owner of 67 Raynham Road?
Again apologies if I've missed something obvious!
Many thanks,
Joel.
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Hello Joel, and welcome.
I struck the details out because I first posted them, thinking this was the death of your Henry. On looking further and finding the probate of Henry J Munday I realised that his widow was not Martha. So the incorrect death. I then edited my post to show the details crossed out, with the explanation underneath.
Had I removed them altogether someone else could have found them and made the same error as I did.
So your Henry is...
Births Mar 1872
MUNDAY Henry Harold
Woodstock 3a 689
Is this correct?
Modified
Is this his death
Deaths Mar 1924
MUNDAY Henry H
age 52
W.Ham (Registration District)
4a 434 (Volume and Page )
Marriages Mar 1900
Munday Henry Harold
W. Ham 4a 183
Surridge Martha
W. Ham 4a 183
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Hi LarkSpur,
Apologies that makes sense now :)
Yes that does seem to be the correct Henry... Although it isn't as straight toward as that. I'll try to briefly explain but this is probably something for a new thread.
The story passed down:
My great grandfather told my grandfather, my grandfathers brothers, my father and all the family this...
He was born Henry Munday in Somerset 1892 (52 Bath Road to be exact). He was always know as 'Harry'. I'll refer to him as 'Harry' going forward.
Harry told the family that when he was younger, his father was a gambler and lost a lot of money on a ship returning from India where he was working - he planned on buying a large store when he got back to Blighty but because of the money he lost could only afford a small tobacconist in Walthamstow.
Because of his father, Harry ran away from home and lived with gypsys - he was so fond of them that he took their surname (Webb) and also married a gypsy girl (Alice Stone - my great grandmother).
Harry had a younger brother named Sid (again a nickname - my uncle told me his real name was Cyril but I now believe it was Cecil from the documents I found). Harry stayed in contact with Sid after he ran away from home but none of the other family. We also know Sid had a twin sister but that's about it.
Up until a few weeks ago this was the story that the family knew of Harry - no idea who his parents or other family were, literally nothing and it's always been accepted that we would never know.
Then a friend of mine started helping me do some digging. This is what we have found...
Please see the attachments - the first two from 1901 - shows Henry Munday and wife Martha at the bottom of the first page and their son Harry at the top of the second page. The next is the 1911 census showing his brothers and sisters including 'Uncle Sid' and Sid's twin sister 'Edith'. But no Harry? Why... Well it matches up with the story that he ran away from home... All well and good.
The next problem is Harry's marriage certificate to Alice.
Notice he has put his name as Henry Morris? There was a rumour he picked up Morris from a doctor that looked after him when he first ran away from home but no evidence of that - he has also put Henry Morris as his fathers name.
Witnesses: Arthur and Phoebe Webb (no mark - they were illiterate = gypsys? That's the story). Where as Harry did have an educated hand. We have also come to the conclusion that Harry actually added Webb to his surname at a later date too. Why? Who knows...
Sorry for the MASSIVE explanation and there is probably more I've missed - as I said I should really start a new thread!!
Thanks for reading,
Joel.
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Sorry I've just discovered I cannot attach the censuses or certificates as they are too big! If you'd like to see them in happy to send via email if anyone is interested :)
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I have looked at the census' in question. Rootschat has a policy and we cannot post up anything on the 1911 census. ;)
My goodness, aren't family stories wonderful. With my own, and there are quite a lot, they contain about 60% correct information, it is always fascinating to unearth the truth in them.
I will have to get back to this later as my family are demanding attention at the moment 8)
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Haha absolutely! :)
Thanks for the tips LarkSpur, much appreciated.
This thread has gone a little off topic from the subject but never mind lol. All the best with yours hopefully we'll speak again soon.
Joel.
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My grandmother grew up in Walthamstow and I've been doing a fair bit of "background" research on her life.
The running away to be with the gypsies rings true - there were some regular gypsy camping sites in and around Walthamstow.
You might like to get in touch with the Vestry House Museum - they are very big on the local history of Walthamstow, and you never know what they might turn up. They've got a stunning photo archive, too ... and they might even have a picture of your "small tobacconist in Walthamstow" for you.
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Oh wow that's great, thank you for the heads up jbml! I will do that.
All the best with your research, never know our histories in Walthamstow may meet at some point :)
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Quite apart from searching on line web sites, you could also go to your local archives and records office. Ask to see old telephone directories or Commercial Directories in print.
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Something is nagging at me here. As far as I can make out Henry Harold Munday and Martha Surridge were married in 1900. Was there a previous marriage for Henry? Who was Harry's mother?
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Hi Shaun, glad it's not just you - this is a predicament we've pondered too.
We don't know if Martha was his mother - as far we know, yes she is and that he never had a step mother. It would have meant Harry was 11 years older than his brother Sid - quite a difference. Was he born out of wedlock to Henry and Martha? Maybe. We just aren't sure.
It's all very odd. But as far as we know, he never had a step father/mother etc but it's a possibility. They seem to have moved around quite a bit too. ???
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Births Dec 1892
Surridge Henry Harold
Bridgwater 5c 343
same Christian names as his father...birth certificate needed if you do not already have it.
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That's him! :o
It must be?
Do you mind if I ask where you found this? Was it free BMD?
So Henry Munday was his step father?!
And if Henry Harold Munday was his step father, that could explain the bad blood and why he ran away from home?
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Free bmd
Henry does not HAVE to be step father. My gt gt grandparents had 4 children born before they married, his first wife was still alive. With the younger having the same christian names I would think it likely the elder was the father, which is why you need the birth cert.
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I think I had better get that ordered... Thank you so much LarkSpur!!! ;D ;D ;D
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;)
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If he ran/owned/rented the property then he would have appeared in the Poor law and highways rate book kept by the local parish. He had to pay his rates every 6 months which is noted in these documents. By trawling through these you can see how profitable the business is and whether he had difficulty in paying them. It also gives you a good indication of when he vacated the property.
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By trawling through these you can see how profitable the business is
Well, not exactly.
Rates have always been levied on the value of the land occupied. There is no direct connection ot the profitability of the business carried on there.
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Henry Harold Munday appears in the London Electoral Registers for 1902 and 1903 at 67 Raynham Road.
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Thank you Shaun.
The plot thickens... As far as we knew he was born Henry Munday and later adopted the surname Webb - so it looks like he was born Henry Surridge, picked up Munday (either from stepfather or when parents got married I guess?) and then later picked up Webb from the gypsies?!
We've ordered Henry Surridge's birth certificate so hopefully that will help answer some questions...