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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: 12tootsi34 on Wednesday 03 August 16 19:35 BST (UK)
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I have a problem. My ancestor a John West, aged about 40, lives in Little Surrey Street Southwark with his wife and family. In the 1841 census his wife Sarah and some of his children are listed but not him. From other records he is a waiter at taverns but I cannot find him at all. I have gone through 175 country entries for that time but none are him. Where has he gone? any suggestions.
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Do you mean he was aged about 40 in 1841?
Which children are missing in 1841 in case he is with any of them.
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There is a John West age 40 on his own in St Pancras grocers shop?
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Is John with Sarah in the 1851 census?
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My ancestor a John West, aged about 40, lives in Little Surrey Street Southwark with his wife and family.
Can you tell us when this was please & add any other names/dates/places(where born)/occupations relevant to the family to help research?
Annie
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1851:- Great Union Street, Saint George Southwark
John West, Head - 50 b 1801 - Waiter - Middlesex
Sarah West, Wife - 44 b 1807 - Middlesex
Louis West, Son - 24 b 1827 - London, Middlesex
Sarah West, Daughter - 20 b 1831 - Christchurch, Surrey
Rosina West, Daughter - 13 b 1838 - Christchurch, Surrey
Ernest West, Son - 10 b 1841 - Christchurch, Surrey
David
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In the 1851 census John west is given as living at 38 Gt Union Street with his family of Louis (male), Sarah, Rosina and Ernest. His age is given as 50, a waiter, born in Middlesex. In the 1841 census only Sarah, Rosina, Sarah and Ernest are given living in Little Surrey Street. Louis is living away with his uncle being trained/apprentice carver/guilder. John was married in St Georges Bloomsbury in 1824. Records exist for baptisms of most of his children. I have investigated all John Wests in the 1841 census but none are him. In the 1861 census Sarah (widow) is given as living with Rosina near St Georges circus. As in those days there being no divorce if husband left the wife would call herself a widow, so he may have left rather than died. Question is where is John in 1841? I have been addressing this problem for 15 years now.
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Thanks David and 12toots .... so John is definitely still alive in 1841. ;)
There is a John West age 40 on his own in St Pancras grocers shop?
It could be worth checking this John to see if he is around in 1851 or checking directories to see who is the shopkeeper, in case John is "shop sitting". :)
Do all of his children's births/baptisms say he is a waiter (if/where occupations are included)?
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What about this one living Southall Hayes Middlesex
Head of house is an innkeeper
Several names including John West 40 think it says horse keeper
Could be his link to taverns if this is he
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There are 3 baptisms 27 Nov 1836 but father is William John waiter Surrey Street.
Children Lewis John - William ? - Sarah Ann Maria
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Re William John. In all his dealings John and his family have all called him 'John'. If you look you will find that the baptism was carried out by one of the household members. She also reported the death of his son in 1836 where she also calls him William John. My investigations have not found any one related with this name, so I have had to discounted this as wrong bearing in mind that few people could read or write then.
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William ?
I think this says William Julius born 1829. Is this the son who died in 1836?
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Yes, William Julius died in 1836 at the age of 10 years and 8 months. Not been able to find out where he was buried. In those days the body was owned by the family and they put it where they could afford. Some got just dropped into the Thames on a cold winters night. All the local burial grounds would have been full up.
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Re the horse keeper in Hayes. This man would be an Ostler which is a special job. Waiters in the Victorian period were very prim and would be very clean and precise people. They would wear a uniform of such which would be spick and span even if it was threadbare. I cannot see a person with these traits working in a stable. In big houses the horsey people would be kept away from the big house as they always smelt of the stable.
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Hello 12toots.....
I am not quite sure what to make of all this ???
Identified (possibly & probably) your John West as....
There are 3 baptisms 27 Nov 1836 but father is William John waiter Surrey Street.
Children Lewis John - William ? - Sarah Ann Maria
You then state
Re William John. In all his dealings John and his family have all called him 'John'. If you look you will find that the baptism was carried out by one of the household members. She also reported the death of his son in 1836 where she also calls him William John. My investigations have not found any one related with this name, so I have had to discounted this as wrong bearing in mind that few people could read or write then.
Is this why you can't find him in 1841....looking for wrong name ???
Maybe looking for "William John" will open doors for you....have you tried that or have you just dismissed that possibility completely ???
Genealogy is fickle & nothing is concrete until you have the proof.
Just because he was on a later census as plain "John West" does not disclude he may have opted for that within 10 yrs ???
I also think that some of your info. should have been included earlier to give the fact that his proper name is likely "William John" :-\
Annie
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Re William John, Yes I have been down that avenue but what I have found is not fruitful.
Yes it was the custom of waiters to give themselves a quick name such as John and he could have stuck with it but as I said that avenue was not fruitful.
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Mmmm,
You refer to......
Re William John. In all his dealings John and his family have all called him 'John'. If you look you will find that the baptism was carried out by one of the household members. She also reported the death of his son in 1836 where she also calls him William John.
Can you oblige us with "all" these "dealings" whereby he is was known as John please?
Looking at the topic there are 3 counts of him being William John & that was on the baptisms of his children.
There is however, only once where he is John.....the ONLY census he was on in 1851.
To be honest, I think you are being dismissive of general hints/enquiries by others offering help.
Can you please tell us....
What name was used when "John/William John" married ?
What was his occupation on marriage if included ?
What name was given by his children on their marriages ?
What was his status on their marriages...was he deceased ?
What occupation was given on their marriages ?
All info. is essential to other's as well as yourself in order for them to help.....
We are Genealogists not Dentists.....it's like extracting teeth ::)
Annie
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We all love to solve a mystery and are all keen to help but as Annie says, we do need to know the work you have done to reach your conclusions & the sources. Any questions asked are for clarification or to lead us on/eliminate another route.
You've obviously done a lot of research into waiters in the mid 19th century!!
Waiters in the Victorian period were very prim and would be very clean and precise people. They would wear a uniform of such which would be spick and span even if it was threadbare.
Do you think this would still be the case for a waiter in a tavern, rather than a restaurant or hotel?
Where did you read of waiters giving themselves a quick name?
Josey
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We all love to solve a mystery and are all keen to help but as Annie says, we do need to know the work you have done to reach your conclusions & the sources. Any questions asked are for clarification or to lead us on/eliminate another route.
Yes Rosie...
Of course we do (nothing better to be honest) but working with a scenario where our "hands are tied" through lack of info. doesn't help ::)
My geography isn't great but I noted.....
What about this one living Southall Hayes Middlesex
Head of house is an innkeeper
Several names including John West 40 think it says horse keeper
Could be his link to taverns if this is he
Not to be dismissed in my opinion as he may have been a "good candidate" for a Waiter's job but needed "a foot in the door" 1st for a vacancy (possibly known at the time) of taking on the "Horse Keeper" job ???
Anything is possible & can't be discluded at this time unless he's found elsewhere.
Possibility is in favour as the "tips" possibly in the area may have been good if he was to succeed in becoming a Waiter there....now with 3 kids ???
Not sure as I say with areas, how well off an area it was etc. but worth a look at as to how good a place & how far from home as well as the fact that they may well have been estranged....in my opinion there are strong possibilities of this being "John" but I haven't looked elsewhere :)
Annie
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Where did you read of waiters giving themselves a quick name?
Josey
Josey,
Interesting question as "Will" would be as short (if not shorter) than "John" ???
My personal thought is that William John & John are 2 different people (same surname)....without clarification as to the contrary ???
May well have been related but...who knows until we get more info from toots ???
Annie
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Some good questions and observations.
Back at reply #7 I asked what John's name was on children's baptisms (if given). As we all know occupations could and did change, sometimes substantially.
Re William John. In all his dealings John and his family have all called him 'John'.
Regarding the name. You are looking at events that occurred in the early 19th century, so I don't know how you can confidently state that his family called him John. There can't be many surviving documents which refer to him at all, let alone refer to him as John, and documents already mentioned refer to him as William John.
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The daughter Rosina Eliza was baptized 6 August 1837 at St John the Evangelist Lambeth fathers name was John West, waiter of Little Surrey Street. Mother Sarah in the margin born July 1837.
Added
As John was a waiter he may not have worked 9-5. A large hotel would have waiters
serving till all hours, did Sarah think he would be counted at work re: 1841.
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He is down as being a waiter at taverns. These establishments were open at all hours. A waiter had to pay the owner to work at his tavern. He got his pay from the tips that were given to him. Even if he was at work he would have been included in that establishments entry, and from my investigation there are none. Where he lived it would have been only some 50 minutes walk if he worked in the city. As you probable are aware Taverns were a special place where wine was drunk and a hot meal was provided on the hour at most hours. Cannot find any detail of him at these establishments, whether being called 'John or Will'. In the 1841 census certain areas were lost, some including those around the St Luke's area where many Taverns were. Probably he was included in one of these. Ta for the information.
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He is down as being a waiter at taverns.
In the 1841 census certain areas were lost, some including those around the St Luke's area where many Taverns were. Probably he was included in one of these. Ta for the information.
;D I suppose that sums it up then.... ???
"In the 1841 census certain areas were lost"
"Probably he was included in one of these"
And easier than answering the questions you haven't given replies to ::)
Annie
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Do you have some information which indicates that John worked in a Tavern in the City?
Presuming he worked in St Lukes because he cannot be found may be jumping to the wrong conclusion.
It might be helpful if you made up a timeline of all "events" that you have for John, and note his:
- Name (ie John or William John)
- Address
- Occupation exactly as it appears, and
- the specific event eg baptism of child, marriage etc.
Sometimes setting it out this way can clarify things. :)
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Ruskie....
I can answer 1 of those questions:
There is no occupation given on the marriage I looked at (if it's the correct 1)?
John West
Sarah Maria Haydon
Married 12 Sep 1824 - St George, Bloomsbury
Annie
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There are 3 baptisms 27 Nov 1836 but father is William John waiter Surrey Street.
Children Lewis John - William ? - Sarah Ann Maria
Millie,
Can you tell us where the baptisms took place please ?
I've found a possibility of my theory being wrong.
I thought William John & John may have been 2 different people (same surname) & a 2nd marriage for Sarah but I'm now thinking there's a possibility of them being the same person using 2 different names/occupations when it suits him ???
More to add later as I'm still digging ;D
Annie
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Wow, you are 'working' into the wee small hours Annie, sounds intriguing ....
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Yes Josey....
Kind of like reading a book which you can't put down ;D
Just wish I had more time today to look for the vital evidence I need ::)
I have a feeling John/William John may have been a Bigamist or leading a double life as there are certain points worth considering.
(1) A rather large gap in ages of children on the 1851 (7 yrs I think) 6 yrs?
(2) Married Sarah by name of John
(3) 3 of their children baptised with father William John (found by Millie)
(4) John (missing in 1841) looks to be with another family although employed as a Lab?
Annie
ADDED......
I viewed the marriage:
John West
Sarah Maria Haydon
12 Sep 1824 - St George, Bloomsbury
Witnesses Henry James (can't make out surname) & Ann Haydon
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Not that it matters, but might that witness's name be Henry James Brookes?
Re William John. In all his dealings John and his family have all called him 'John'. If you look you will find that the baptism was carried out by one of the household members. She also reported the death of his son in 1836 where she also calls him William John. My investigations have not found any one related with this name, so I have had to discounted this as wrong bearing in mind that few people could read or write then.
As an aside, when looking at the marriage I noticed that both John and Sarah signed their names.
Neither of the above are relevant to the search that Annie is working so hard on, but I just wanted to add them nevertheless. :)
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Another aside - I think witness may be Henry James Brookes. And John & Sarah were the only couple out of 6 on the page who DIDN'T have John Harrison [presumably parish clerk or suchlike] as a witness.
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Snap Josey. ;D
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Another marriage which has me curious:
John West
Sarah French
19 Nov 1827, St Marylebone, Westminster
Could this be "John"
1841
Registration district St Marylebone
Sub-registration district Christchurch
Piece 677
Book 6
Folio 16
Page Number 25
Household Members:
John West 38
Sarah West 37
Sarah West 10
Elizabeth West 8
George West 5
1841
Household Members:
John West 38 b 1803
Sarah West 37 b 1804
Sarah West 10 b 1831
Elizabeth West 8 b 1833
George West 5 b 1836
1851
Household Members:
John West Head 50 b 1801
Sarah West Wife 44 b 1807
Louis West 24 b 1827
Sarah West 20 b 1831
GAP of 6 yrs then:
Rosina West 13 b 1838
Ernest West 10 b 1841
In the above 1851 there is a gap between Sarah b 1831 & Rosina b 1838
In above 1841 there is a “filled gap” between that Sarah (1831) & Rosie (1838)
Both Sarah’s born same yr 1831 but then Elizabeth b 1833 & George b 1836 fill the missing gap of 6 years
Have not had time to look for Sarah no. 2 in 1851 when our John was with Sarah no. 1
So if anyone has time (while I'm tied up).....might be better looking for wee George (name not so common) to see if he's with parents but need to find that Sarah (his mum) definitely in 1851 to find out if hubby's around ???
Annie
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HO107; Piece: 1490; Folio: 28; Page: 48; Aha no John...but 4 more children aged 10 - 2...
2 Burns Place
Sarah West widow 42 charwoman
Sarah West 21 charwoman
Fanny West 10
Sarah West 4
William West 7
George West 13
Eliza West 2
Perhaps find the baptism of one of these children?
all born Marylebone
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Josey.......
Well done & thanks!!!, looking a wee bit more suspicious now :o
That was mighty quick....only went to make a cup of tea ;D
Ohhhh.......
Things are sure looking good on my suspicions but for the better ::)
Ruskie......You know what I mean on that comment ;D
Thanks for pointing out that both signed as I had forgotten about the post regarding "I have had to discounted this as wrong bearing in mind that few people could read or write then"
Annie
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Must get to pilates @2 so will try later ;)
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Would be interesting now to find out what occupations were used on all the baptisms if recorded.
I suppose saying your a "Waiter" when you're "toing & froing" between women would account for "long absences" ::)
Anyone found John in 1861 with any of his kids or anywhere at all?
Hoping he hasn't "popped his clogs"....the story is just getting interesting ;D
Annie
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Not that it matters, but might that witness's name be Henry James Brookes?
Ruskie,
Thanks for that.....
It did matter to me as I was hoping to get a look at the other marriage to compare witness names to help clarification ;D
Annie
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Just to add to the mix......
Possible brother of John:
William West
Sarah Foster
3 Jan 1819 - St George, Bloomsbury
A coincidence that John uses "William John" at times ::)
Annie
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.... In the 1861 census Sarah (widow) is given as living with Rosina near St Georges circus. As in those days there being no divorce if husband left the wife would call herself a widow, so he may have left rather than died....
HO107; Piece: 1490; Folio: 28; Page: 48; Aha no John...but 4 more children aged 10 - 2...
2 Burns Place
Sarah West widow 42 charwoman
Sarah West 21 charwoman
Fanny West 10
Sarah West 4
William West 7
George West 13
Eliza West 2
Perhaps find the baptism of one of these children?
all born Marylebone
There appear to be a couple of deceased John Wests lying around .... ;D
I did wonder if Eliza, and maybe Sarah in the above census might belong to Sarah aged 21 rather than Sarah aged 42 .... :-\ (but probably not considering the following, unless she is a daughter in law rather than a daughter and she married a son of Sarah aged 42, whose name was also John?:)
Has this already been mentioned? - Christ Church St Marylebone - Nov 7 1858 - three baptisms on the same day with parents John West and Sarah of 14 Little James St -: Sarah (b 1847), Eliza (b 1850) and Emma (b 1852). I can't work out the father's occupation though it may be "father died"?
aaaahhhh! Too many Johns and Sarahs! :P
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Not that it matters, but might that witness's name be Henry James Brookes?
Ruskie,
Thanks for that.....
It did matter to me as I was hoping to get a look at the other marriage to compare witness names to help clarification ;D
Annie
I couldn't see the 1827 John West / Sarah French marriage on Ancestry ... :-\
found it
Added: Have a look at the signatures of John West on both marriage entries and see what you think. ;)
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Ruskie....
"Has this already been mentioned? - Christ Church St Marylebone - Nov 7 1858 - three baptisms on the same day with parents John West and Sarah of 14 Little James St -: Sarah (b 1847), Eliza (b 1850) and Emma (b 1852). I can't work out the father's occupation though it may be "father died"?"
Think that's the ones mentioned earlier by Millie but ta for the information :P now we have names ;D
Yes, agree, wee Eliza could be young Sarah's child.
I found the marriage on Anc but couldn't download it ???
I need to get ready for going out but would be interesting to know who the witnesses were for William West & Sarah Foster?
Hmmm...."deceased John Wests lying around" ;D or lying around ??? :P
I wonder what address, which Sarah & who was the informant ???
Hope I win the lottery to buy all the certs. to find out if they are the same person ::)
Annie
ADDED....Would have been better if he died in Scotland....questions would be answered in 2 secs ;D
EDIT.....Not if before 1855 ::)
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Annie, I just added to my previous post (check the signatures)
Witnesses are different on the Sarah French marriage - Samuel Rance? and Elizabeth Nessap/Nepop? :-\ John claims to be a bachelor.
I will look for the William West marriage ...
Added: witnesses are James West and Ann Atkinson (I think)
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Ruskie,
Will need to wait till I get home......are the signatures different ???
If he was marrying bigamously he would have to say he was single ::) ;D
Annie
ADDED...I couldn't get any of the others to download & enlarging them they were too fuzzy for me to read.
Think I may have to delete stuff from comp....maybe not got enough memory ???
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It was the gap with the children which made me wonder ???
Annie
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There are some similarities, but I think they might be different. On all three marriage entries, I think all of the "West" signatures look similar .... :-\
I think the jury is out on whether or not it is the same John. I know I want it to be, so maybe that is clouding my judgement. ;) ;D
I will be interested to see what others think.
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I agree that the gap between the children does make you think ....
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Ruskie...
Are you able to post images of the signatures please ???
I'm getting organised to go out & not enough time to check for now ::)
Annie
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I'm not sure if I can manage it Annie (very clueless) but I will see what I can do.
If anyone is reading this who is more capable, please jump in and help if you can. :)
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I agree that the gap between the children does make you think ....
And only another1 John on both 1841 & 1851 about same age but both with a Sarah & 2 marriages with same names ??? Too many coincidences :-\
Annie
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Sorry Annie, I'm failing miserably in my attempt to grab these signatures. I will leave it to someone more capable who it will probably take about one minute to do. I am muddling around here making a mess of it all. :P
Thanks for any help with this anyone (please). ;)
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No worries Ruskie.....
I'm just so curious but won't even see them till very late tonight if someone does upload them ::)
It's a fun topic for sure :P
Annie
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I'll have a go at the signatures now [back from pilates core-strong & stretched ;D.
ADDED: Here goes
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Only West Marylebone baptisms 1842 +- 5 yrs I can find on ancestry, both Christchurch, are Sarah West d/o John, gardener, & Sarah 18 Salisbury St on 1 Jun 1842, same couple had Richard baptised 12 Jan 1845 now living 3 Hardington Place.
ADDED:
Also 11 Nov 1849 John & Elizabeth baptised of John, gardener, & Sarah 16 Weston Place
This I think is Fanny [10 in 1851 in Burns Place] but cannot find a baptism
Births Sep 1841
West Fanny Marylebone 1 175
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I wouldn't like to call yes or no on those signatures.
There's another John West signature that might be relevant. ( I'm sorry but I have no idea how to copy & paste from an I pad) There's an 1835 London marriage between Henry West and Hannah Carter (I believe these to be the parents of Valentine West who is with the family in 1861) A John West was a witness to the marriage.
It seems that even his children weren't too sure what it was John did for a living. On Louis John's 1854 marriage he has father as John West gentleman. Ernest's 1867 marriage has father as John tradsman, and on Ernest's 2nd marriage (as a widower) in 1907 he has father as John deceased beerhouseman.
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Christ Church St Marylebone - Nov 7 1858 - three baptisms on the same day with parents John West and Sarah of 14 Little James St -: Sarah (b 1847), Eliza (b 1850) and Emma (b 1852). I can't work out the father's occupation though it may be "father died"?
Yes, 'Father decd'. Why can't they have put the occupation as well grrrr. So that father must have died Feb 1852 at the earliest.
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I'm sorry but I have no idea how to copy & paste from an I pad) There's an 1835 London marriage between Henry West and Hannah Carter (I believe these to be the parents of Valentine West who is with the family in 1861) A John West was a witness to the marriage.
I do a 'print screen' & save as a .jpg from picture editing software [mine is Paint Shop Pro].
This 1835 signature looks much more confident than the others. I would say 1819 one is not the same as the 1827 but it's not easy - neither of them look like a writer at ease with signing.
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Thank you Josey. I'll start practising with that.
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Christ Church St Marylebone - Nov 7 1858 - three baptisms on the same day with parents John West and Sarah of 14 Little James St -: Sarah (b 1847), Eliza (b 1850) and Emma (b 1852). I can't work out the father's occupation though it may be "father died"?
Yes, 'Father decd'. Why can't they have put the occupation as well grrrr. So that father must have died Feb 1852 at the earliest.
"Decd" of course! :)
It could be worth purchasing the birth certificates in the hope that the father's occupation is given. Maybe the OP already has those, as he said he has most of the children's births, I wonder if he means certificates?
Regarding the signatures, thanks for posting those Josey. :) I am not sure that any of them match any of the others, but as noted, those from the '24 and '27 marriages are not written in a confident hand(s) so it is difficult to know if they were written by the same person.
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Josey.....A big thanks from me too & a big thanks to Lily too (very helpful indeed both but more confusing now) ::)
My view is there are similarities very apparent with certain letters in all 3 signatures but some letters from each signature only match parts of the other 2 signatures (if that makes sense) ???....
None of the 3 are consistent with any of the other 2 but a lot of each matches the other 2 (best I can describe what I'm trying to say) ;D
I'm still reading through everything posted since I went out & trying to piece it all together to establish whether there is still a possibility with my theory ???
I wouldn't like to call yes or no on those signatures.
There's another John West signature that might be relevant. There's an 1835 London marriage between Henry West and Hannah Carter (I believe these to be the parents of Valentine West who is with the family in 1861) A John West was a witness to the marriage.
It seems that even his children weren't too sure what it was John did for a living. On Louis John's 1854 marriage he has father as John West gentleman. Ernest's 1867 marriage has father as John tradsman, and on Ernest's 2nd marriage (as a widower) in 1907 he has father as John deceased beerhouseman.
Lily,
That kind of shakes the scenario for me....Tradesman (what would this include...very vague description in terms) although Beerhouse man would kind of fit possibly with Waiter.
It would be interesting to know what is on the marriages for the kids of Sarah French regarding father's occupation ???
Annie
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I'm looking forward to a response by the OP.
Although your theory, Annie, may not end up being right, you have worked hard through the wee hours to come up with it. Some additional information, answers to our earlier questions, and his or her thoughts on your bigamy theory from the OP might be nice.
I am especially interested in the children's birth entries or certificates, and would like to know exactly what John's name was on each of them, and also exactly what his occupation is written as.
Over to you "12toots".
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These could be the marriages for the 2nd family
Sarah West mar. William Grubb 1854
Elizabeth West mar. Thomas Caster 1857 (witness William Grubb)
Fanny West mar. John Chad 1866 (witness Sarah Grubb)
All three of these had father John West - labourer (no mention as to dead or alive)
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These could be the marriages for the 2nd family
Sarah West mar. William Grubb 1854
Elizabeth West mar. Thomas Caster 1857 (witness William Grubb)
Fanny West mar. John Chad 1866 (witness Sarah Grubb)
All three of these had father John West - labourer (no mention as to dead or alive)
Now that's consistent Lily for to be the correct family I would say.
I'm waiting on someone finding a marriage with a father John who's a "Waiter in Taverns" ???
Yes Ruskie,
It would be nice to have a response which could help further whether to identify or eliminate John one way or the other.
Why did that gap with the children have to appear, the very thing that got me wondering to begin with ???
Was it just a coincidence that children were born elsewhere in that space of time ???
Why were both John's not on 1841 & 1851 with their respective wives ???
Annie
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Still a lot of questions and few real answers Annie. It would be nice to tie up the loose ends.
You're right about "Waiter in Taverns" as an occupation. I wonder how that might differ from being just an ordinary Waiter? Presumably that would be a transferable skill and John would be able to perform other "waiting" tasks at various establishments (not just at Taverns), or perhaps undertake other employment if and when necessary. Waiting does not seem to be well paid. If he had to pay to work at the Inn and only had his tips to live off, you would not think that would bring in enough income to support a family. (It brings to mind the Monty Python sketch with the Yorkshiremen trying to outdo each other with their tales of deprivation ... "you think that's bad? I had to pay the Tavern keeper to let me work at the Tavern.") ;D
Anyway, this might add some weight to John possibly also being a labourer, a tradesman or beerhouseman ...) as well as a "Waiter". :-\
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Ruskie....
I'm busy here trying to do a kind of summary with all the given info. contributed so far.
From the info. provided by Lily....if John spent more time with "suspected" wife no. 2 then that would account for the consistency with his occupation & living with them most of the time & the differences of occupations given by his children with wife no. 1.
I would be interested in what his occupation was prior to my "suspected" marriage no. 2.
I would be interested if there was a "change" of occupation between the births prior to the "gap" & after.
Of course we all love a good story & a good challenge but at the same time we need input & interest from the OP regardless which topic we try to help with.
There are "Posters" who would jump at the chance to give more info. on such an exciting theory to help with our investigations & would also be excited that there is/was a possibility of such.
In my opinion it's this kind of thing that makes us "hungry" for more in Genealogy whether proven right or wrong but it sure fascinates most who are genuinely interested.
Annie
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Too true Annie. ;)
;D
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This doesn't get us any further, but just for a possible solution to the "waiter at a tavern"
Maybe the OP has a birth certificate for one of the younger children - Rosina or Ernest, and that's what is given for father's occupation.
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Ok...Looking back at the info.
When I scroll, I can't get far enough back the posts to insert quotes but...
Sorry Ruskie,
I thought this was the info. already given by Millie but I now see it isn't ::)
"Christ Church St Marylebone - Nov 7 1858 - three baptisms on the same day with parents John West and Sarah of 14 Little James St.
Sarah (b 1847),
Eliza (b 1850) and
Emma (b 1852)"
The birth yrs of ALL the above can't be ANY of the 2 families in question according to yrs born/ages on census.
Both Sarah's from marriages 1 & 2 were b c1831
Eliza b c 1833 (on marriage no. 2)
Emma not yet born (1852)
This is Millie's.......Reply #9
"There are 3 baptisms 27 Nov 1836 but father is William John waiter Surrey Street.
Children Lewis John - William ? - Sarah Ann Maria"
Marriage No. 1 (from 1851)
Lewis (Louis on 1851) b c 1827
William ? (not on 1851) but from Josie Reply #11 "I think this says William Julius born 1829. Is this the son who died in 1836"....clarified by toots on Reply #12
Sarah Ann Maria (Sarah on 1851) b c 1831
Annie
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Annie, the baptisms you have given above match the children/grandchildren of the 2nd wife Sarah West in 1851. Sarah age 4 and Eliza age 2
I'm sure these can't really be John and Sarah's children though. More likely to be daughter Sarah's children. As was suggsted earlier. I can't find either of them after 1851
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This doesn't get us any further, but just for a possible solution to the "waiter at a tavern"
Maybe the OP has a birth certificate for one of the younger children - Rosina or Ernest, and that's what is given for father's occupation.
Lily....it does help though as we can verify thanks to amondg Reply #21
The daughter Rosina Eliza was baptized 6 August 1837 at St John the Evangelist Lambeth fathers name was John West, waiter of Little Surrey Street. Mother Sarah in the margin born July 1837.
Annie
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Annie, the baptisms you have given above match the children/grandchildren of the 2nd wife Sarah West in 1851. Sarah age 4 and Eliza age 2
I'm sure these can't really be John and Sarah's children though. More likely to be daughter Sarah's children. As was suggsted earlier. I can't find either of them after 1851
Thanks Lily for pointing that out .....I thought Ruskie (sorry) was meaning the children from both those marriages & never crossed my mind about the 1861 :-[
I see from 1861 it's the grandchildren....duh (I'm so tired) going through all this info.
Annie
ADDED...It was the 3 baptisms on same day which threw me ::)
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Couldn't help having a look at this family after seeing the query on the "How to Use RootsChat" board, even though a lot of work was done in 2016 without any reply from the OP.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=879680
12tootsi34 - have you looked at the Valentine WEST (Jun qtr 1839 St Mary Newington) who is with the family in 1861. He appears to be the son of Henry WEST and Hannah (nee CARTER) who married 13 Dec 1835 at St John the Baptist, Hillingdon. One of the witnesses was John WEST. To me this implies a family relationship, probably brothers - Henry and John.
Henry and Hannah WEST can be found on the 1841 at St Mary Newington
HO 107/1065/7 pg12 & 13.
Henry dies between 1841 and 1851. There are various Workhouse entries for the children around 1851 "father dead and mother in Guy's Hospital".
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Yes this problem has been around for so some time. Yes I know all that you have given me. In the 1851 census in the same house as John lives a policeman Edwin West. He is attached to the police station around the corner. Other policemen are living in the same road nearby. At the present time no relationship to John. Henry is the brother of Edwin. After the 1861 entry no other exists for Valentine, One does crop up in USA in late 1860s in the army and another in Australia in 1890 onwards. Cannot link any of these