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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: Fernz on Wednesday 03 August 16 01:51 BST (UK)
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I’m trying to help an elderly friend find the WO 364 (‘pension’) records for her father, who was discharged from the Royal Irish Regiment in September 1917 because of a gunshot wound.
We’ve been searching (intermittently but for a few years!!) on Ancestry and Find My Past, and have his entry on the medal rolls and also on the Silver War Badge roll. We can’t find his WO 363 (service) record, but didn’t expect to because so many of those records were burnt. We did expect to find him in the WO 364 ‘pension’ records but have had absolutely no luck. After the initial ‘no result’ I’ve searched just by first name (with wild card/s), by surname (with wild card/s), by regiment, and by regimental number.
I’ve also searched for the 11 other RIR soldiers mentioned on the same SWB page and I can’t find them either.
My friend says her father received a partial disability pension of 1 pound a week. He died in 1959. She has his discharge papers, but would like to find his service record (via his WO 364) to find out where he fought.
I know some WO 364 records were filed out of order and others have had their names mis-read, but I thought I would have flushed him out by now! So I’m hoping there’s someone out there who’s more familiar with WO 364 and can advise why this soldier (and the other 11 on the same SWB page) is unfindable in WO 364 – e.g. maybe there’s a cut-off date, or it excludes Irish soldiers?
Fingers crossed … and thanks for any help!
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This is what the Long Long Trail website has to say about the WO364 record set
"Collection WO364, also known as the Unburnt Records.
It is also often referred to (incorrectly) as the Pension Records. Some records or parts of records appear to have been removed from the building that burned as they were later found at the Ministry of Pensions. These records are usually a relatively small subset of what would have been the man’s record. They are in the hands of the National Archives and WO364 is the series number that relates to these records. It is possible to find a record in both WO363 and WO364.
◾These records are now online at Ancestry
◾And at Findmypast
◾They are also available on microfilm at the National Archives although staff there will insist that you use the digital sources first
◾The originals are no longer accessible to the public."
So it seems the complete set did not surive.
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Many thanks, crisnane. I'd seen the Long Long Trail's comment before, but it's a bit ambiguous and doesn't quite jell with info on the TNA site. The Ministry of Pensions records back-ended into WO 364 were those still being paid out after 1938, so my friend's father should have been amongst them. Still hoping that someone might have more personal knowledge about the ins and outs of WO 364 - but thanks again for your help :))
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FindMyPast has this to say:
WO 364 - First World War pension claims WO 364 are service records of non-commissioned officers and men who were discharged from the British Army and who either claimed disability pensions for war service from 1914 to 1920 or who were deemed likely to claim a pension. These records were stored with the Ministry of Pensions and, therefore, escaped the bombing that so decimated the records we now find in WO 363. These records are unlikely to contain any papers for soldiers who were either killed in action and had no dependents or who were discharged as part of the demobilisation at the end of the First World War and did not claim a pension.
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but would like to find his service record (via his WO 364) to find out where he fought
As you've pretty much exhausted what's out there may be you should approach it from another direction.
Does his SWB or Medal Roll give a Battalion ?
If so you can download the war diary, although OR's are rarely mentioned you should be able to work out where he was & what happened when he received his wound.
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These sites have missed off one important point. Following the fire the WO/PRO asked other departments for records they no longer needed. These were mainly failed pension claims from WW1 and records for men granted a temporary pension that had lapsed.
So the record of a man receiving a pension in the mid-1940s would not have been passed over.
Ken
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Thanks everyone!
Jim1 - thanks also for suggesting the war diaries. The Medal Roll and the SWB roll give different battalions, but there was a letter from him published in the local paper which makes it clear that he was with the 6th Bn (at least in Sept/Oct 1916). And there is indeed a war diary for the 6th Bn. Next step is to find out from TNA how much it’ll cost! The ‘free’ one at TNA is unreadable.
Ken – thanks, too, for pointing out that WO 364 isn’t necessarily a complete record re pensions. I’d assumed that the ‘Third Collation’ (WO 364/5000-5804; soldiers getting a pension after 1938) included soldiers who were still receiving their pension in the ‘40s and ‘50s. Now I can see that’s not the same thing. Something else to follow up with TNA!
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Good luck with the TNA. They no longer have these records. So as staff with military knowledge leave their replacements do not need to know the background.
Ken
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The diary will cost £3.45 & can be downloaded.
I can say the 6th. Batt. were at Bullecourt France Sept./Oct. 1917 according to their diary.
The other date you give which is Sept. 1916 the 6th. were at Carnoy (Somme) where they lost half their Batt. & pretty much all of their Officers.
As you don't mention the other possible Batt. I can't comment on that.
Saying you have 2 Batt's. indicates he was taken off the strength of his regular Batt. & transferred to another prior to his discharge.
Without a name & no. it's difficult to say which Batt. he was in when he was wounded.
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There were 3 intakes of men from the 3rd. Batt. Feb./March 1916 totalling 105 men.
I agree he probably went overseas with the 6th. but if he didn't he was certainly there March 1916.
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Thanks again, Jim1. I think you’re right, that he would have been with the 6th Bn when they were first mobilised (embarked for France December 1915).
Also, apologies for being unclear about the dates.
Sept/Oct 1916 relates to his letter home, which was published in his local paper; he wasn’t injured in that battle.
Sept 1917 was when he was discharged, because of gunshot wound/s to the forearm: 19 September 1917 was the discharge date. (The SWB roll doesn't give a date for the wound/s.)
In your experience of reading service records, how long a time is there between being wounded (in this case, ‘just’ the forearm) and being discharged?
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Although only a wound to the arm the time to his discharge can be measured in months.
Hospitalised & then convalescence/rehabilitation before being re-assessed/re-classified.
You could be looking as far back as March.
Having read the diary for that period there was a major raid carried out by the 6th. on the German held Petit-Bois salient.
There were a number of casualties including 66 wounded.
There was also a minor raid the following month with a small number of wounded.
Although he could have been wounded on any day as shelling & sniping was a constant danger this is where he was at the time. They were in this sector until early June when they went into Div. reserve.
Petit-Bois is South of Ypres & North of Armentieres.
The map: 28 S.W. (Wytschaete) Ref : N.24.
http://maps.nls.uk/view/101464681
Blue represents the British trench system & red German.
As an aside the C.O. of the 6th. makes reference to the "big push in the South" & the detonation of 19 mines.
This was the battle of Messines Ridge where the largest man made explosion occurred.
It was said Lloyd George heard it in Downing St.
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Thanks heaps for all that info, Jim1. It’s so kind of you to go to all that trouble – and it’s much appreciated :) :)
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I found not much on irish regiments but there is a museam in northern ireland holds a lot of records of republic ireland soldiers but if you find the person you are looking for they charge £28 to find his service record and give you a copy if you have any medals or no who has his service number is on the back
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Thanks, Marksmurff. He wasn't a soldier of the Irish republic, though - his service pre-dated the Free Irish State. Do you have the name of the museum that holds the Irish republic records?
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The Web site is royal - irish. Com it's change since I was last on it so they have up dated it .and I take your point there was no republic of ireland I was just trying to explain that they have the records from the south of ireland service records
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Thanks very much, Marksmurff - what a great find :) In terms of regiments that fought in WW1, it seems to have mostly Royal Irish Rifles and Royal Irish Fusiliers at the moment. I searched for the 12 soldiers I have from the Royal Irish Regiment and they weren't there. But the website says it'll eventually include soldiers from the RIR. So I'll keep an eye on it :D
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An update re WO 364 … I’ve heard back from TNA (a few weeks ago; sorry I’ve been slow to post this). TNA has confirmed that “the files contained within WO 364 are those that were deemed surplus by the Ministry of Pensions in the Second World War” and so the records for a soldier whose pension was still being paid in the late ‘40s and ‘50s won’t be in WO 364. Thank you, Ken, for originally suggesting that this was the case :)