RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (North Riding) => Topic started by: Emma Hughes on Monday 01 August 16 22:19 BST (UK)
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Hi everyone,
This site has given me so many ground breaking solutions in the past I thought I would try you all once again. I have want to to trace what happened to James Hodgson b. 1881 in Kendal, Westmorland.
I know that he attacked his wife and was sent to prison or an asylum. It happened sometime between 1935 and 1955. My Nana as a child used to carry money orders from the family to the post office to be sent to him alas she never looked at the address.
The last place I know that he lived was Healey Masham in Yorkshire North Riding but they could of moved as he was a navvy on reservoirs. I've searched newspapers and haven't found any references to him or his wife, I have looked at what prison records I can find on the usual family history websites without success.
Where else can I look? Any tips for this sort of thing?
Thanks everyone
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Why don't you search for his death certificate? around 1962
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This is very cryptic SB:
Why don't you search for his death certificate? around 1962
Would you care to be more specific? Supply district, volume and page numbers perhaps?
Is this correct Emma? Did your James die "around" 1962? Death certificates generally contain the least information and are more likely to record inaccurate details. It won't give further information about his arrest and conviction.
A few quick thoughts:
Do you have James on the 1939 register? There may be clues as to his whereabouts - perhaps he had previous "form".
I am surprised that you could find no mention of him in the newspapers of the time. This is where you would expect to find what you are looking for re his crime. Maybe another set of eyes might locate something for you. His surname may have been misspelled, for example ...
What was his wife's name?
It sounds like this is a family story - I am wondering if there may be some inaccuracies.
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I don't know when he died. The name is so common I have no idea which death could be his as I don't know where he was.
I do know that he never went back to his family as the wife lived with someone else whose name we cant remember. I've never found her death record, perhaps she started going by the new partners name although they wouldn't have married.
His wife's name was Emily Cristina Hodgson nee Kingwell. I have found that with the newspapers you either have to be really lucky or know the place and time in order to comb through and find what you are looking for.
Yes it is a family story. 2 brothers married two sisters. One couple were my Nana's grandparents, she was evacuated to live with them in the war. Her grandfather used to get her to buy and send postal orders for 10 shillings a month to James Hodgson (his brother) in prison/aslyum. This was in the 1940s. At the time everyone was told that he was sent to a hospital for shell shock after the war. But later Nana realised he never went to war! Then her mother told her the real story. My Nana's grandfather never spoke to his sister in law again after having him arrested as apparently she was a piece of work.
The story was that he attacked her with a knife but we don't know if it was asylum or prison. He was never seen again.
I haven't looked at at the 1939 census, that's a good idea. Thank you
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around 1962
Presumably you followed up the original enquiry with some research and found information that leads you to give this date? Why not share it with the OP and the rest of us?
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I don't know where that date came from.
I'm just look on FindMyPast the 1939 register. There isn't much to go on but Emily would have been 60 years old at the time of the census and would have had her son James Hodgson and a wife, name unknown. I don't currently have a subscription.
Common names as so maddening
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Did James have a middle name? Do you know his or Emily's actual dob? May be worth gettting their birth certs as this will help looking in 1939. Is the 1935 - 1955 time scale for the alleged attack from your Nan's information?
You could try looking for her children in 1939 - Emily may have been living with one of them. I'm sorry but we can't look for you due to copyright reasons. I have pm'ed you.
ADDED:
Births Dec 1879
Kingwell Emily Caistor 7a 678
Also intriguingly:
Name: Emily Christina Lamb
Birth Date: 25 Dec 1879
Date of Registration: Mar 1971
Age at Death: 91
Registration district: Folkestone
Volume: 5f
Page: 1263
LATER: Scrub that death this is probably the relevant marriage
Marriages Sep 1905
Baker Emily Christina Maidstone 2a 1753
Lamb Frank Gilbert Maidstone 2a 1753
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Emma, I think Jen was directing her question to Scouseboy regarding the year 1962.
Sadly, I doubt that he will return to enlighten us. :)
I was going to suggest that the family story might have been concocted to cover a scandal, but I see that it is the scandal! I will see if I can spot any newspaper articles later, but if there are none, it makes me wonder if the story was enhanced a bit, and the wife was not injured, or James just threatened Emily but did not harm her. An interesting story thats for sure. :)
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I think Jen was directing her question to Scouseboy regarding the year 1962.
I was :)
It will be interesting for you to find out from him the information leading him to suggest that James died around 1962 :)
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Thanks everybody. It s a puzzle I've made no headway with.
Yes this is Emily,
ADDED:
Births Dec 1879
Kingwell Emily Caistor 7a 678
And this is James,
James Hodgson
Mar qtr 1881 Kendal Westmorland
Volume 10b Page 696
I don't think he did actually stab her, just threatened her. I think he must have gone somewhere otherwise Nana wouldn't have sent the postal order every week for years. Whatever happened it caused a rift because John (other brother) never spoke to his sister in law (Emily) again, which was difficult as she still visited her sister for a while (Johns wife) but had to come when he was out of the house. Emily and James children didnt know what happened to their father, or at least some of them didnt as years later during a row it all came out, many year ago before I was born. The 1935 to 1955 time scale is from Nana although I can narrow it down further, she was evacuated 1939 and leave until 1945 so it was during this time, or maybe a bit before.
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It makes me wonder if Emily kicked him out, and the story was invented to make her appear to be the inncoent party. How long after James left did she take up with the other chap?
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Don't shoot me people, as I am not pretending to be an expert, but just throwing in a few suggestions ;D......
Did the wife have any children with the new partner? Not sure if looking into that might help you find more info. I don't have much experience with BDM records for UK, but if you can find a birth registration for a child, it may indicate what the new partner's name was, to help you find her death certificate (I am working on the assumption that birth registrations that late would have mothers maiden name).
Does England have police gazettes, like the Australian records? They recorded all manner of things police related, including arrests, missing persons, crimes etc.
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Don't shoot me people, as I am not pretending to be an expert, but just throwing in a few suggestions ;D......
All suggestions welcome, as is lateral thinking :). MMN is on English/Welsh GRO references for births after 1911.
Emily would have been a bit too old for children with the new partner if whatever caused the separation happened around 1935.
I have heard of Police Gazettes but do not know if there are online.
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Funnily enough I did find a police gazette for this mans uncle, haha what a family. But no trace for James unfortunately.
She didnt have any more children but that is an excellent suggestion. One thing I enjoy about tracing family history is adding information bit by bit and then what you are looking for pops up as if by magic.
Perhaps she did kick him out, perhaps he had more children who knows. I eagerly await the 1921 census in 2022. I will look for the children and see if old Dad or mum and new partner pops up.
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I eagerly await the 1921 census in 2022.
I think many of us think a mystery or two will be solved then.... ;D
There are several J or James Hodgsons born ca 1880 on ships lists ca 1930.
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I hadnt even considered ships. Im ordering his birth certificate now for the actual date of birth. Its addictive
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Emma, how did you narrow down the correct birth certificate for James? I just had a quick look on Freebmd and there are a few of them ....
Forget that, I was looking in Cumbria ...
I note that the only James Hodgson born in 1881 is the one you have found ... however, there are rather a lot of them born in other years. Where did you get his birth year of 1881 from?
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The 1881 census was taken on the 3rd of April, so if the James b 1881 Kendal was registered in the March quarter of 1881 then he should appear on the 1881 census.
I can't see anyone by the name of James Ho*son born in Kendal, Westmoreland or even Cumbria in 1881.
Where did you get the information that he was born in Kendal?
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I've just searched elsewhere and found a possible family with a three month old James Hodgson.
Father is John, a blacksmith, and mother is Elizabeth.
This James has a number of older siblings.
He was born in "Hutton Roof" Westmorland. This appears to be between Kirkby Lonsdale and Burton in Kendal.
I'm not sure if this might be your James?
Added: I have found the same family in the 1891 census with same place of birth for James.
Added: I may have found him in 1901 living in Northumberland with his older brother - occupation Navvy, born Lupton.
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Yes that is him as a child. His brother was my great great grandfather. The 1901 is correct too! On the 1911 his surname was mispelled as Hadgson, in Leighton Healey near Masham
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Emma, I couldn't see any mention of him in newspapers related to a conviction, though it would be worth others looking in case I missed something.
Have you looked at all of James' siblings in 1939 in case he is with them rather than in an institution?
:-\
Might he have been involved in WW2? :-\
I am still very interested to hear from Scouseboy about the 1962 death he found. If he has information about your ancestor it is unfair that he has not returned to tell you more.
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To be honest I have had limited success tracing the siblings. They have such common names its almost impossible.
Sister...Francis 1864 Lupton, I know was married to a farmer possibly called barrow, or her duaghter possibly married a farmer call barrow, daughters maiden name unknown. Ive never found them even though I have their house address.
Sisters..Mary 1866 Lupton and Fanny 1866 Lupton, I've never found them but I did find a baby called Ann 1880 (grand daughter) in the house with the the parents so I assume she belonged to one of the girls.
Brother Edward 1867 Lupton, he was married, had children then went on the run. Police gazette for his arrest. Never seen again.
Brother John 1870 Lupton, my ancester. James was never seen again after the arrest/commital.
Brother George 1873 Lupton, he stayed with parents then went on to live alone.
Sister Alice 1875 Whittington, emigrated to Canada
Brother William 1878 Hutton Roof, Ive never found out anything about this sibling at all
Then James
I will try again today perhaps and see if anything turns up. I wish, not for the first time, that they would have given their children original names
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I may have found him in 1901 living in Northumberland with his older brother - occupation Navvy, born Lupton.
Yes, that is him, he was living at Catcleugh in 1901, presumably working as a navvy on the reservoir being built there.
The free index to the 1911 census shows some of his children born at Catcleugh.
(Not relevant to your search I know ::) Catcleugh is an amazing piece of work and well worth a visit if you're in the area http://www.northumberland-cam.com/catcleugh-reservoir/ )
I spent some time yesterday trying to find newspaper references to him, but no luck I'm afraid.
I am still very interested to hear from Scouseboy about the 1962 death he found. If he has information about your ancestor it is unfair that he has not returned to tell you more.
Yes, we're still eagerly waiting for the information he's found.
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The fact that James was living in Catcleugh and highly likely to have been working on the reservoir is interesting and adds a bit more depth to the man and his story. Thanks Jen.
As there is no mention of James in any newspapers, I am now wondering if there is any value in searching asylums for James. I think there are usually restrictions on access to records, but even if there was an admission record, that would be helpful. Emma, do you have a last sighting of James - place and approximate date?
Come on Scouseboy! We know you're out there! Please tell us about the 1962 death that you found for James!!!!! You want to help Emma don't you? ;D In fact, I can see your little green light in on right now - so give us some help here please ....
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Why don't you search for his death certificate? around 1962
There was an indication that he was alive in 1955, so I took into account his probable dob and suggested searching either side of 1962, starting in 1962.
I used maths and probability. It was not that I had found a specific death on an index.
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Yes he was working on the catcleugh reservoir. 4 generations of my family worked on it at the same time and my great grandmother was born there. My great great grandmother and his sister were arrested for running an illegal pub in their hut. The fine was massive! There is an open day, the final open day this year, this Sunday and I would love to go but I live on an island off the south coast and it is a 7 hour trip ): Maybe next year.
After the catcleugh reservoir the family parted. James and family, his mother and her family went to the Leighton reservoir. My gg grandfather John and his family went to Wales to work on Brecon reservoir. The reservoirs were so dangerous, my great great grandfather lost one son near catcleugh in an accident aged about 3 and another son in the brecon reservoir, he drowned aged 13. I have ordered James's birth certificate so just waiting. I will have a look at the deaths again.
Thankyou everyone
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Why don't you search for his death certificate? around 1962
There was an indication that he was alive in 1955, so I took into account his probable dob and suggested searching either side of 1962, starting in 1962.
I used maths and probability. It was not that I had found a specific death on an index.
Oh. That's disappointing. I thought you found something solid rather than made a wild guess. He would have been 81 years old in 1962, so, although not impossible, he is unlikely to have lived far beyond 1962.
It is possible that the last "sighting" of him in 1945 or 55 may have been because he had died rather than run off somewhere. :)
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May I suggest some thoughts.
Are you or were allowed to send money to someone in prison, I thought you could only "spend" what you had earned.
Attitudes were different then to disputes between husband and wife, would threatening your wife result in a long custodial sentence, or would it just be a domestic with a policeman having a firm word with the offender.
Is it possible he he had a breakdown and was committed to an institution, in those days once in it was hard to get out again, a common threat in my youth was the men in white coats will come and take you away and you won't get out, it was not without some substance.
Mike
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Yes that is very possible. Nana does think it was more likely to be an institution rather prison. Might explain the animosity towards his wife throughout the family if he was 'driven' to it and never got out. I will probably never know for sure