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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: hunterterri58 on Monday 01 August 16 08:24 BST (UK)

Title: Two people in the same area????
Post by: hunterterri58 on Monday 01 August 16 08:24 BST (UK)
Hello

I have a challenge.  Martha Ward married Charles Watson around 1811 in the Holborn area of London.  I cannot find their marriage, but all children were baptised in St Andrews Holborn.  Charles was a lighter man and they lived in Fetter Lane.
I think I have now found Charles Birth.  He was not on the 1841 census and Martha is a widow.  There is a Charles born in 1770, baptised 18 July 1770 in St Andrews Holborn.  No other can be found so I think this must be him although that would have made him quite old when he married.

Martha Ward however is more of a challenge.  THere are two Martha Wards in St andrews Holborn.  One born May 1787, baptised 10 Jan 1792 and one baptised 6 Oct 1777.  The parents names are not reflected in their choice of childrens names so that is not helpful.
Any idea how I can decide which is my Martha.  She says she is 59 in the 1841 census and I have found a Martha Ward Watson (which appears to be how she is known as all baptisms of children refer to her as Martha Ward) death 17 April 1842 aged 61.

Any thoughts greatly appreciated.

Teresa
Title: Re: Two people in the same area????
Post by: Rosinish on Monday 01 August 16 08:38 BST (UK)
Difficult but you need to check the yrs of kids births to see how old she was giving birth to last child.

If he was a good bit older she may have added a few years on 1841?

Annie
Title: Re: Two people in the same area????
Post by: Spidermonkey on Monday 01 August 16 09:08 BST (UK)
Outside my scope of experience, but I believe that there is a worshipful company of lightermen - I wonder if they hold any records relating to Charles, and perhaps more importantly whether they made any provision for Martha after his death (it might, for example mention her age, or give her date of death if they stopped providing assistance to her).

http://watermenscompany.com/
Title: Re: Two people in the same area????
Post by: Spidermonkey on Monday 01 August 16 09:10 BST (UK)
Also, on the 1841 census, was Martha born 'in county' - or do you need to widen the area to look for her?
Title: Re: Two people in the same area????
Post by: wivenhoe on Monday 01 August 16 09:11 BST (UK)
"...Martha Ward married Charles Watson around 1811 in the Holborn area of London."

Where does this suggested year and place of marriage come from?

Title: Re: Two people in the same area????
Post by: Andrew Tarr on Monday 01 August 16 09:16 BST (UK)
I think I have now found Charles Birth.  He was not on the 1841 census and Martha is a widow.  There is a Charles born in 1770, baptised 18 July 1770 in St Andrews Holborn.  No other can be found so I think this must be him although that would have made him quite old when he married.

My instinct is that this may be an unwise conclusion.  Charles and Watson are not uncommon names, London is/was a large place, and not all records for 1770 may be accessible.
Title: Re: Two people in the same area????
Post by: jim1 on Monday 01 August 16 10:54 BST (UK)
As she's using her maiden name as a middle name (effectively a double-barrelled name) indicates they weren't married.
The last child was born c.1827 which would make the Martha born 1777 around 50 so not her.
Title: Re: Two people in the same area????
Post by: wivenhoe on Monday 01 August 16 11:38 BST (UK)
Martha's age suggests the possibility of an earlier family...?

25 May 1808 Christchurch
Martha Ward MORGAN  of this Parish, spinster
Charles WATSON  of this Parish bachelor
witnesses  J  KNIGHT,  Elizabeth REEVE

and of interest for witnesses names......29 May 1808 (same church)
John SEYMOUR bachelor of this Parish
Sarah Elizabeth MOOR of this Parish widow
witnesses  J KNIGHT   John REEVE
Title: Re: Two people in the same area????
Post by: Andrew Tarr on Monday 01 August 16 12:14 BST (UK)

25 May 1808 Christchurch
witnesses  J  KNIGHT,  Elizabeth REEVE

and of interest for witnesses names......29 May 1808 (same church)
witnesses  J KNIGHT   John REEVE

I find this repetition is very common.  At this time many people were unable to sign, and these witnesses may have been junior clergy, or perhaps churchwardens or similar.
Title: Re: Two people in the same area????
Post by: ScouseBoy on Monday 01 August 16 12:19 BST (UK)
Or the organist?
Title: Re: Two people in the same area????
Post by: StevieSteve on Monday 01 August 16 12:48 BST (UK)
Outside my scope of experience, but I believe that there is a worshipful company of lightermen - I wonder if they hold any records relating to Charles


The recommended starting point for watermen is at Guildhall Library / LMA

We suggest that readers begin by searching the apprentice binding books 1688-1908
(CLC/L/WA/C/020/MS06289) and the apprentice affidavit books 1759-1897
(CLC/L/WA/C/026/MS06291), which together will tell you the name of the
apprentice, the date and place of his baptism, the date his apprenticeship begins, the
name of his master and the date he became a free waterman.


These lead to a search through a boxful of baptism certificates which should at least pin down Charles for definite

With regards to pensions and widow assistance, the research guide states

You may find records of the end of an individual’s career as the Company provided
pensions to Company members and their wives. There are account books of
pensioners receiving money from the Company 1794-1928
(CLC/L/WA/G/004/MS06400) and records of payments made to those resident in the
Company almshouses in Penge 1841-1859 (CLC/L/WA/G/023/MS06602).


but I've not used these
Title: Re: Two people in the same area????
Post by: Spidermonkey on Monday 01 August 16 14:01 BST (UK)
Martha's age suggests the possibility of an earlier family...?

25 May 1808 Christchurch
Martha Ward MORGAN  of this Parish, spinster
Charles WATSON  of this Parish bachelor
witnesses  J  KNIGHT,  Elizabeth REEVE


Does this mean Christchurch, Dorset, or somewhere else?  I ask because on Find My Past, they seem to have a transcription of the lightermen binding records, and there is one for a Charles Watson (bound date 1784, if that is any indication of age) from Christchurch.

There are other Charles Watsons in this register, but this one leapt out because of the Christchurch connection.  As StevieSteve details, the records at the Guildhall Library should provide more clarity.
Title: Re: Two people in the same area????
Post by: Ruskie on Monday 01 August 16 14:06 BST (UK)
This site is very good for Watermen/Lightermen:
http://www.parishregister.com/

There is a cost involved.
Title: Re: Two people in the same area????
Post by: rosie99 on Monday 01 August 16 14:20 BST (UK)

Martha's age suggests the possibility of an earlier family...?

25 May 1808 Christchurch
Martha Ward MORGAN  of this Parish, spinster
Charles WATSON  of this Parish bachelor
witnesses  J  KNIGHT,  Elizabeth REEVE


Baptism for a Martha Ward Morgan - St Clement Danes, Middlesex 1 Nov 1781 parents Thomas & Martha
Title: Re: Two people in the same area????
Post by: Spidermonkey on Monday 01 August 16 14:31 BST (UK)
Hello

I have a challenge.  Martha Ward married Charles Watson around 1811 in the Holborn area of London........ they lived in Fetter Lane.
 snip
Any idea how I can decide which is my Martha.  She says she is 59 in the 1841 census and I have found a Martha Ward Watson (which appears to be how she is known as all baptisms of children refer to her as Martha Ward) death 17 April 1842 aged 61.

Any thoughts greatly appreciated.

Teresa

The burial record for Martha Ward Watson gives her address as Fetter Lane, as does the 1841 census.  They both tally with a birth c. 1782, which then also tallies with the baptism and marriage that Rosie and Wivenhoe found.
Title: Re: Two people in the same area????
Post by: LizzieL on Monday 01 August 16 14:45 BST (UK)

Does this mean Christchurch, Dorset, or somewhere else?  I ask because on Find My Past, they seem to have a transcription of the lightermen binding records, and there is one for a Charles Watson (bound date 1784, if that is any indication of age) from Christchurch.

There are other Charles Watsons in this register, but this one leapt out because of the Christchurch connection.  As StevieSteve details, the records at the Guildhall Library should provide more clarity.

I think Christchurch in London, it comes up on London marriages on Ancestry.
There are two records for Charles Watson with the same binding date in 1784, one says reassignment. One is to master also called Charles Watson and one to a different master. This would imply that the first master had possibly died part way through the apprenticeship. The 1770 baptism mentioned earlier was to parent Charles and Elizabeth Watson. There are several other children bapt to same couple in Holborn, but doesn't give Charles snr's occupation on any records.
Title: Re: Two people in the same area????
Post by: MaureeninNY on Monday 01 August 16 15:16 BST (UK)
The marriage was Christ Church Newgate Street .

 ;) ;) I cheated and looked for the vicar who married them.

Maureen
Title: Re: Two people in the same area????
Post by: Spidermonkey on Monday 01 August 16 15:42 BST (UK)
The marriage was Christ Church Newgate Street .

 ;) ;) I cheated and looked for the vicar who married them.

Maureen

 ;D That's not cheating - that's researching!!!  ;)
Title: Re: Two people in the same area????
Post by: hunterterri58 on Monday 01 August 16 21:56 BST (UK)
OH so confusing :o

So youngest child was born in 1826 so she would then have been 44 when she had her.  First child born 1811 that is why I am thinking it would be marriage around 1811.

So is Christchurch near Holborn, where they lived as a family?  Are we now saying that they did marry, but she was originally married to someone Morgan?

On 1841 census she does say that she is from that county.

Are we also thinking that the Charles born to Charles and Elizabeth is my Charles?
I am getting a little confused, but so excited.  Thanks so much for all your help here.

Teresa
Title: Re: Two people in the same area????
Post by: rosie99 on Monday 01 August 16 22:22 BST (UK)
See my reply 13
She was christened Martha Ward Morgan in 1781 
Title: Re: Two people in the same area????
Post by: Rosinish on Tuesday 02 August 16 00:23 BST (UK)

25 May 1808 Christchurch
witnesses  J  KNIGHT,  Elizabeth REEVE

and of interest for witnesses names......29 May 1808 (same church)
witnesses  J KNIGHT   John REEVE

I find this repetition is very common.  At this time many people were unable to sign, and these witnesses may have been junior clergy, or perhaps churchwardens or similar.

Thanks to both wivenhoe & Andrew.....

As an aside, I have come across same witnesses on several docs. in same area & always wondered what the relevance was.....now I know...Thanks to you both  ;D

Annie
Title: Re: Two people in the same area????
Post by: StevieSteve on Tuesday 02 August 16 06:34 BST (UK)
OH so confusing :o

So is Christchurch near Holborn, where they lived as a family? 

Teresa

From http://maps.familysearch.org/#search  (Type in Christchurch in the search field)


Christ Church, Newgate Street with St Leonard, Foster Lane is an Ecclesiastical Parish in the county of London, created in 1670 from Christ Church, Newgate Street Ancient Parish and St Leonard Foster Lane Ancient Parish.


Holborn St Andrew is 2 parishes to the west if you look on their map (New) Fetter Lane is about 10-15 minutes walk away from Newgate Street
Title: Re: Two people in the same area????
Post by: hunterterri58 on Tuesday 02 August 16 11:43 BST (UK)
OH so confusing :o

So is Christchurch near Holborn, where they lived as a family? 

Teresa
Thanks stevie for your information on where Christchurch is in relation to Holborn.

From http://maps.familysearch.org/#search  (Type in Christchurch in the search field)


Christ Church, Newgate Street with St Leonard, Foster Lane is an Ecclesiastical Parish in the county of London, created in 1670 from Christ Church, Newgate Street Ancient Parish and St Leonard Foster Lane Ancient Parish.


Holborn St Andrew is 2 parishes to the west if you look on their map (New) Fetter Lane is about 10-15 minutes walk away from Newgate Street

Thanks for this.  That is such a great help.  :)
Title: Re: Two people in the same area????
Post by: hunterterri58 on Tuesday 02 August 16 11:45 BST (UK)
As she's using her maiden name as a middle name (effectively a double-barrelled name) indicates they weren't married.
The last child was born c.1827 which would make the Martha born 1777 around 50 so not her.

The thing about this 1841 entry is that the children with her are correct so it must be her.  She is Martha Watson on this census.  More puzzling!  ???
Title: Re: Two people in the same area????
Post by: hunterterri58 on Tuesday 02 August 16 11:52 BST (UK)

Does this mean Christchurch, Dorset, or somewhere else?  I ask because on Find My Past, they seem to have a transcription of the lightermen binding records, and there is one for a Charles Watson (bound date 1784, if that is any indication of age) from Christchurch.

There are other Charles Watsons in this register, but this one leapt out because of the Christchurch connection.  As StevieSteve details, the records at the Guildhall Library should provide more clarity.

I think Christchurch in London, it comes up on London marriages on Ancestry.
There are two records for Charles Watson with the same binding date in 1784, one says reassignment. One is to master also called Charles Watson and one to a different master. This would imply that the first master had possibly died part way through the apprenticeship. The 1770 baptism mentioned earlier was to parent Charles and Elizabeth Watson. There are several other children bapt to same couple in Holborn, but doesn't give Charles snr's occupation on any records.
Hello and thank you for this information.  I found the Charles and Elizabeth children and did wonder if this was my Charles family.  They are in holborn though and if the general thought is they were married in Christchurch, but lived in Fetter Lane, Holborn when married and he came from there, would that make sense???
Do you think that Charles was apprenticed maybe to his father?  I did also hope to find his fathers occupation but could not trace it.

so great to have people to run this all by.  I end up so confused on my own.  :) :)
Title: Re: Two people in the same area????
Post by: hunterterri58 on Tuesday 02 August 16 11:53 BST (UK)
The marriage was Christ Church Newgate Street .

 ;) ;) I cheated and looked for the vicar who married them.

Maureen
How do you do that and how would that help when researching someone please?  Always looking for new ways to research.  ;)
Title: Re: Two people in the same area????
Post by: hunterterri58 on Tuesday 02 August 16 11:57 BST (UK)

Martha's age suggests the possibility of an earlier family...?

25 May 1808 Christchurch
Martha Ward MORGAN  of this Parish, spinster
Charles WATSON  of this Parish bachelor
witnesses  J  KNIGHT,  Elizabeth REEVE


Baptism for a Martha Ward Morgan - St Clement Danes, Middlesex 1 Nov 1781 parents Thomas & Martha
Thanks for that.  Is St Clemet Danes, Middlesex anywhere near Holborn, Christchurch area?  This is what I find hard.  It is not easy to see where these places were in those days.  I cant seem to make the family search link work at the moment.

Thanks  :)
Title: Re: Two people in the same area????
Post by: rosie99 on Tuesday 02 August 16 12:02 BST (UK)
I always look places up on Google maps to see where they are,  St Clement Danes church is still standing.  It is close to Holborn

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Clement_Danes
Title: Re: Two people in the same area????
Post by: StevieSteve on Tuesday 02 August 16 12:27 BST (UK)
Is St Clement Danes, Middlesex anywhere near Holborn, Christchurch area?  This is what I find hard.  It is not easy to see where these places were in those days.  I cant seem to make the family search link work at the moment.

Thanks  :)

The familysearch map seemed to break just after I posted the link :-(

St Clement Danes is on the Strand about 5 minutes walk from Fetter Lane
Title: Re: Two people in the same area????
Post by: hunterterri58 on Tuesday 02 August 16 16:52 BST (UK)
Is St Clement Danes, Middlesex anywhere near Holborn, Christchurch area?  This is what I find hard.  It is not easy to see where these places were in those days.  I cant seem to make the family search link work at the moment.

Thanks  :)

The familysearch map seemed to break just after I posted the link :-(

St Clement Danes is on the Strand about 5 minutes walk from Fetter Lane

oh  ::) Well thanks for the information though.  It is all coming together nicely now.  You have been a great help. :)
Title: Re: Two people in the same area????
Post by: hunterterri58 on Saturday 06 August 16 21:37 BST (UK)
hello again everyone
On this matter...........I have come across a challenge again.
I have found several Christophers born to the family of Charles Watson born 1745 and Elizabeth Melan.  They were married in 1765 in HOlborn and their son Charles, born 1770 is my line.  However, there is a Christopher born in 1776 and then later on  in 1784 and again in 1786.  The places they have lived are Union Court and then Saffron Hill and then two children in Castle Street/yard and these two later Christophers are in Union Court again and then I found a Sarah in 1790 in Fetter Lane.

Fetter Lane is where my Charles had his family so it is a possibility that he could have lived in his fathers house when he married??

I cannot find the Christophers as dying at all????

I then found a Charles Watson born to a Christopher and Elizabeth Watson in 1744, but in Christchurch, Surrey, Southwark.  I thought that maybe this was him as the name Christopher is clearly important (forgot to mention my Charles called his first child George Christopher Watson in 1808), but then I saw that Christchurch Southward is on the other side of the Thames and my reading on the Lightermen suggests that people were constantly crossing the Thames by using these Watermen etc but would that have drawn him to live there and then work as a Lighterman. (cant find his records at all, only my charles, the son!)

So I am thinking that as most of the Lightermen lived in the Middlesex area it seems, the most likely candidate for my Charles and Elizabeth is the one born in Holborn in 1745, but I would be interested in your thoughts please.
Hope this is clear because my head is totally mixed up at the minute with Charles and Christophers!!  :o :o ??? ::) :)
Title: Re: Two people in the same area????
Post by: wivenhoe on Sunday 07 August 16 09:01 BST (UK)
I cannot see if this is already listed - possible construction of this family, christenings St Andrew Holborn   parents Charles WATSON / Martha (WARD)

WATSON George Christopher          6 Aug 1809
WATSON Lavinia Elizabeth             11 Jan 1811
WATSON Emma Antoinette            13 Mar 1814
WATSON Edgar Ward                      5 Nov 1815
WATSON Albert                             13 Apr 1817
WATSON Frederick                          8 Aug 1819
WATSON Horace                            22 Jan 1821
WATSON Eliza Hellen                     24 Nov 1822
WATSON Eliza Jesse                      21 Jan 1827

Census 1841  @ 106 Fitter Lane
WATSON Martha    head  coal dealer
WATSON Edwin     son     29yrs  reader
WATSON Albert     son     24yrs
WATSON Horace    son    20yrs
WATSON Eliza       dau    14yrs      all born in this parish
ANTONIA Elizabeth          22 yrs     coach liner (?)      foreign (born)

Census 1861
WATSON Edwin G   head    48yrs  unmarried   printer (reader)         b. Holborn
WATSON Elizabeth  sister   34yrs                                                   b. Holborn
WATSON Frances L  niece   19yrs   bookfolder                                 b. New Orleans America
                                                                                                   B (british) S (subject)

Who is Frances WATSON b. New Orleans?
In considering the possibility that Martha WATSON might have an earlier (than WATSON) family, it might be useful to research the origins of this Frances WATSON to identify her parents.
Title: Re: Two people in the same area????
Post by: LizzieL on Sunday 07 August 16 09:35 BST (UK)
A Lavinia Frances Watson (full age) married Henry Wilson 11 April 1868 at St Mary Newington, her father was George Christopher Watson - lighterman
Title: Re: Two people in the same area????
Post by: hunterterri58 on Sunday 07 August 16 17:24 BST (UK)
A Lavinia Frances Watson (full age) married Henry Wilson 11 April 1868 at St Mary Newington, her father was George Christopher Watson - lighterman
thanks for looking into this, but I have just pulled up the St Mary Newington register for 1868 and there is no entry for Lavinia Frances Watson at all.  I have found George Christpher Watson's apprentice records with the Waterman and Lightermen records and he was bound to Charles Watson on 4 March 1824, but then reassigned to his mother Martha Watson on the same day???? I know Charles died in 1829.  could he have been too ill to do the work?

Cant find George Christopher in any census either!  ???
Title: Re: Two people in the same area????
Post by: hunterterri58 on Sunday 07 August 16 17:35 BST (UK)
Hello again

I have just followed another link to the St Mary Newington marriage from a Family Tree on Ancestry and found that marriage.  Still cant find what George was up to though.
Title: Re: Two people in the same area????
Post by: Ciel1962 on Tuesday 24 March 20 00:42 GMT (UK)
Martha Ward Watson of 106 Fetter Lane was my gggg grandmother
Title: Re: Two people in the same area????
Post by: Ciel1962 on Tuesday 24 March 20 00:51 GMT (UK)
I’m descended through their son Henry Thomas. His son, Edwin Albert was in the Merchant Navy and emigrated to Australia in the 1870s. So did one of the Paddons (son of Lavinia Watson). They married sisters in Australia, one of which was my gg Grandmother. I have very little on George Christopher.