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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Patricia Short on Saturday 23 July 16 23:19 BST (UK)
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Hi everyone,
I have hit a snag on a husband and wife on the Jones side who are a mystery of where they were born exactly and the dob, there a 4th cousin of my mum searching too. But he has been going by tree info off other people on Ancestry. But it's not leading us to where they were born exactly and dob. I have John L Jones 1810, Oswestry, Shropshire passing away in Pennsylvania 1894. Parents of his is unknown as we can't find a definite dob. I am unsure if he has a middle name initial of L as on the gravestone I noticed it had their names as J. & M. L Jones :/ Mary is born in Walesby, Lincs around 1814, her parents are John Bradshaw and Rebecca Turner. I found her baptism for 10 Sept 1815. But I have never been able to find her dob under either of her parents surnames for the area she was born in.
Can anyone help both of us in finding out, as we have searched so many sites but getting nowhere.
Regards,
Patricia
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Hi Patricia,
Mary BRADSHAW - You have a baptism for her and her parent's names, and I presume you're happy you have the right baptism & parents. That may be all you're ever going to get, and you're relatively lucky to have it :) It may be that similar is all you can eventually hope to find for John.
They were both born before the start of Civil Registration, therefore there is no central civil registry recording the actual births. Prior to Civil Registration (from 1 July 1837)you are looking for baptisms or christenings - BUT such records were not always made or kept, or not always survived.
You have the added 'complications' of:
Catholic & other non-conformist religions who often did things differently, or baptisms which occurred years after the birth, or baptisms which didn't even necessarily occur in the parish (or country or county) in which the Birth occurred. Some priest/clerks/religions/parishes recorded the Baptism AND included the date of Birth on the record - but it wasn't a requisite.
If you come across her Birth date mentioned in a family bible, a will, a newspaper 'intimation', or other documentation such us immigration documents, naturalisations - that would be good luck.
If you have her recorded at certain times of her lifespan (census', death, etc) with an age, then you can at least determine if was or was not likely born close to the time she was baptised.
If you can find baptisms of siblings, marriages of parents, UK census, etc that all helps make an accurate determination of where she born.
Cheers
AMBLY
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Hi Patricia,
What is John's precise date of death in 1894 and loaction in Pennsylvania where he is buried?
Cheers
AMBLY
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Where and when did John Jones marry Mary Bradshaw. What documentation do you have that confirms Marys parents other than the baptism
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Hi everyone, before I add more information here is the public tree link http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/102488164/family
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Of course, that's only available if you have a subscription to Ancestry! ::)
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Hi Ambly,
This is the information on John;
Name John L. Jones
Birth Date 1810
Death Date 22 Jan 1894
Cemetery Oakwood Cemetery
Burial or Cremation Place Sharon, Mercer County, Pennsylvania, USA
He is buried with his wife and children. There are census records out there, just not added them on yet. As I have spent all day, searching and searching from England to USA. Upon the marriage of John and Mary I cannot find at this moment, as I'll have to ask mum's 4th cousin if he knows which country. There is a passenger immigration for John again not added yet, but for Mary I have not found that one yet. What I found interesting which twisted my search around a bit for Mary, was that on one record she had surname in her mother's name of Turner and then was Bradshaw of her father surname. We both are definitely happy with who her parents were, this is thee other documentation of Mary;
Name Mary Jones
Death Date 6 Nov 1875
Cemetery Oakwood Cemetery
Burial or Cremation Place Sharon, Mercer County, Pennsylvania, USA
Thanks,
Patricia
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Ah yeah sorry KGarrad :/ You should still be able to see the info on the family, even if you can't on the documentation.... I hope
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I have found a John Jones and Mary Bradshaw marriage certificates in years of 1837 and 1852. As they based under the Lancashire, am not sure if they were living there before they immigrated. Gonna have to shift through the census and see if it adds up.
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1852 marriage gives that Mary Bradshaws father as Thomas so you can rule that one out
from familysearch
John Jones
Mary Bradshaw
01 Jan 1852
St. Peter, Liverpool
Grooms Father's Name John Jones
Brides Father's Name Thomas Bradshaw
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The John Jones who married Mary Bradshaw in Manchester 1837 was a widower - occupation 'Maker up' - Mary was a spinster
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Argh! Thanks Rosie99, that rules out them one's. I'm still trawling through thee passengers list, to find Mary and John Jones.
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Could you please give us some idea as to when you first have them in the USA. Do you have them on census there that you could give us the information from. It sometimes helps us to work out who we are looking for. ;D
Rosie
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Presumably there were descendants of this couple but tree shows just 2 daughters - one died aged 4 and the other aged 25 with no other details.
I can't find a family that matches these details on Pennsylvania census.
Annette
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Hi Rosie, I did find the travel documents for when he arrived in USA but seemed to of lost where it was. I should of saved it yesterday :( I believe that Susanna did have a child, but the child was brought up with her grandparents..John and Mary. Annette there were a few census records I saw yesterday. So tired yesterday after a long searching, I didn't save anything :/
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I have John L Jones 1810, Oswestry, Shropshire passing away in Pennsylvania 1894. Parents of his is unknown as we can't find a definite dob. I am unsure if he has a middle name initial of L as on the gravestone I noticed it had their names as J. & M. L Jones :/ Mary is born in Walesby, Lincs around 1814, her parents are John Bradshaw and Rebecca Turner. I found her baptism for 10 Sept 1815. But I have never been able to find her dob under either of her parents surnames for the area she was born in.
Re "J. & M. L Jones" - if it was in England, I would take the "L" as being one of Mary's initials, rather than John's. But in the USA? - I don't know.
I'm wondering what evidence you have that your Mary Bradshaw is the one baptised in Walesby in 1815, other than that the name matches. Walesby and Oswestry aren't exactly close, and Bradshaw isn't such an uncommon name. Before deciding on who her parents were I'd want to make sure I had the right marriage between her and John, as that could give significant clues to who her parents were and/or where she came from.
You mention the alternative surnames found in the immigration records (Bradshaw and Turner): I wonder whether rather than being her father's and mother's names, these might indicate that she had been marrried before, and are her own maiden name and that of her first husband. On the other hand, lots of people are known by more than one surname, possibly indicating something like illegitmacy or having taken a stepfather's surname - there are plenty of discussions on here about it. So unless there's a clear explanation for the alternative names, it's risky to draw conclusions from them.
I haven't spotted them, but I hope you have firm reasons for deciding John Jones was from Oswestry - there must be dozens of John Joneses to choose from, if not hundreds!
Arthur
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Will of John L Jones of Sharon County, Mercer, Penn. Proved 1894
Is it your man?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-8991-NYX5?i=313&wc=9PMJ-N38%3A268494201%2C271193301%3Fcc%3D1999196&cc=1999196
Can't get the "shrink link" to work today!
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Hey all, I found the census in thee 1860;
Name: John L Jones
Age: 45
Birth Year: abt 1815
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Wales
Home in 1860: Sharon, Mercer, Pennsylvania
Post Office: Sharon
Family Number: 1385
Value of real estate: .
Household Members:
Name Age
John L Jones 45
Mary Jones 45
Susannah Jones 9
John L birth is saying Wales, so am guessing that my mum cousin got the tree hint off someone else's wrong with the birth place??? There a bit of debate on birth year too, it's either 1812 or 1815. Census are giving out different different birth year.
Arthur with Mary Bradshaw, that is thee only evidence found for her on baptism. Not birth at the moment. If her mother married before, this could be a possible reason why she had Turner on a few records and then it was Bradshaw. Not dug at her parents yet.
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Will of John L Jones of Sharon County, Mercer, Penn. Proved 1894
Is it your man?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-8991-NYX5?i=313&wc=9PMJ-N38%3A268494201%2C271193301%3Fcc%3D1999196&cc=1999196
Can't get the "shrink link" to work today!
Jon I can't understand the writing much, but it does seem to be you found a will of his. Very interesting. I have tried to zoom in and read what all of it says.
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1880 also says John born Wales
Sharon, Mercer, Pennsylvania
John Jones 68 born Wales
Mary Jones Grand ch 8 Pennsylvania
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Hi Jon, yes it does too ??? ??? baffled completely.
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1880 also says John born Wales
Sharon, Mercer, Pennsylvania
John Jones 68 born Wales
Mary Jones Grand ch 8 Pennsylvania
It also says that Johns parents were both born in Wales.
It gives Mary's birth as PA but her father was born Wales and her mother bn PA
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01i20/
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Sorry by Mary I meant the grandchild not Johns wife ::)
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I have seen many genealogical instances of UK immigrants to the USA, who never had nor ever used a middle name in England yet suddenly sprouted one in the form of a middle initial in the USA. Often found to be the maiden name of a mother.
I saw the John Jones you mentioned in the place you mentioned in PA, as then discuused above.. wanted to clarify that.
As research Rootschat friends, we're concerned to establish you are tracing the right people. Could I ask, who is the descendant of John and Mary - a child or grandchild perhaps, of whom you are 110% percent sure? Name, birth, married, locations?
Cheers
AMBLY
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I'll private msg you
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That doesn't help the rest of us that are trying to help you though unless you PM all of us.
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Have found John, Mary and Susannah in 1870 in Sharon, Mercer, PA - transcribed on ancestry as 'Juers' rather than Jones.
This says that both John and Mary were born in Wales. You refer to a record re. Mary that mentioned Bradshaw and Turner - what is this record please? So birthplaces quoted for both re. Oswestry and Walesby are both clearly wrong.
Annette
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Rosie, I don't want to give out my mum 4th cousin as he living. So I don't want to give out his name. But I'll copy and paste the msg to you and those trying to help me.
Annette, that is why I am researching more and more into it. I'll get that record for you that I saw on Mary. Sure I seen it on a baptism, check for you now.
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Thank you :)
The Walesby baptism does name parents as John Bradshaw and Rebecca Turner. There is also a marriage the following month in Walesby for a Rebecca Turner (widow) to a John Swaby.
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That doesn't help the rest of us that are trying to help you though unless you PM all of us.
Name Mary Turner
Gender Female
Baptism Date 10 Sep 1815
Baptism Place Walesby,Lincoln,England
FHL Film Number 508068, 508082
Household Members
Name Age
Rebecca Turner
John Bradshaw
Mary Turner
But on another baptism record with all right information but different surname;
Name Mary Bradshaw
Gender Female
Baptism Date 10 Sep 1815
Baptism Place Walesby, Lincoln, England
FHL Film Number 1450432 IT 7
Household Members
Name Age
Mary Bradshaw
Rebecca Turner
John Bradshaw
This is my complete confusion of where there 2 baptism records for exact same parents, date, place, etc. But the surname been changed ??? ???
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"The Walesby baptism does name parents as John Bradshaw and Rebecca Turner. There is also a marriage the following month in Walesby for a Rebecca Turner (widow) to a John Swaby."
I was just digging into Rebecca to see if she married before, do you think the record you found is right one?
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They have been taken from different sources
This film is parish registers FHL Film Number 1450432 IT 7
These are Bishops Transcripts FHL Film Number 508068, 508082
It would appear that she was probably illegitimate :-\
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"The Walesby baptism does name parents as John Bradshaw and Rebecca Turner. There is also a marriage the following month in Walesby for a Rebecca Turner (widow) to a John Swaby."
I was just digging into Rebecca to see if she married before, do you think the record you found is right one?
There is no way of telling. The original marriage image is on linkstothepast but does not give any clues.
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:o illegitimate child? oh boy! makes it more complicated. Will find the shekeltons in the closet soon, just got to keep digging and hopefully all this searching will come up with correct details on John and Mary.
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Hi
Thanks for your PM. So I take it, it's the daughter of John & Mary, Susannah, who is the one who is absolutely certain. Her headstone indicates she was born something like 18 Jan 1852 (I think). The 1860 and 1870 Census has her born in PA.
HEADSTONE on Finda Grave:
1 Side:
Susannah
Daughter of J. & M. L. JONES
Died Dec 6 1877
Aged 25YS , 10 MO, 18 DS
2 Side:
John L JONES
Died Jan 22 1894
Age 84 years
3 Side:
Mary
Wife of John L JONES
Died November 6 1875
Age 61 years
Separate Stone leaning against the above monument:
Mary Ann
Daughter of John L. and Mary Jones
Died Dec. 7 1855 age 7 Y 6M
Found this, on an old 2000 forum :
http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/surnames.jones/4606/mb.ashx
John L & Mary JONES came to PA in 1843 from Aberystwyth Wales and moved to Sharon PA in 1850 forming Sharon steel with John aston and joseph barber...
Cheers
AMBLY
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:o That is the findgrave photo's I saw but I could not make no heads or tails on most of the photo's. The front side of Susanna and her parents name underneath is what I could make out, but thee other's was hard for me to work out what they said. Staring at the photo's long time, I gave up.
Thanks for the link, I just noticed the person who posted it... my mum 4th cousin. If he knew that John was and immigrated from Wales, I don't understand why he think John L was born in England. Cos other public tree's say he was born in England, yet he is from Wales as the census pa says too. Finally we are getting there... jigsaw is piecing together, almost.
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This looks like John in 1850
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01i21/
John L Jones M 36 Wales
Mary Jones F 34 Wales
Mary A Jones F 1 Pennsylvania
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That looks interesting, it sure looks like it could be them. The birth year is about right for Mary A :)
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Oswestry is very close to the England-Wales border. It's not impossible that someone born just on the Welsh side might have said they came from Oswestry because it's the nearest town of any size or importance. (These days the Welsh are perhaps keener to maintain the difference.)
Arthur
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Where does the information that Mary's maiden name was Bradshaw come from.
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Ah thanks for that Arthur, our borders in Wales have changed through the decades to now quite a lot. Rosie the Bradshaw surname came from when her mother married a John Bradshaw.
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Rosie the Bradshaw surname came from when her mother married a John Bradshaw.
I thought we were now temporarily discounting the Walesby baptism as it is in Lincolnshire and not Wales where Mary Jones was born.
To establish what the maiden name of Mary Jones (John L's wife) is we need one of their childs birth certificate or maybe Marys death cert if American certificates have maiden names on them. I don't know what info American records have.
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I could ask the cousin if he has or anyone of his cousins have any certificates of Mary's like marriages, birth certificates, or birth certificates of her children.
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It is worth a try. I don't know what information US certificates have. :)
Annoyingly the will which he signed with a cross only gave his middle name as an initial.
Rosie
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It is worth a try. I don't know what information US certificates have. :)
Annoyingly the will which he signed with a cross only gave his middle name as an initial.
Rosie
I'm going to give it a bash for their children birth certificates, as no one has any of their ancestors certificates, etc. Fingers crossing that Mary maiden name be on there, but can only try and see. And that is annoying that he signed it with middle name initial arrrgh!!
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I'd be surprised if they had registration of births, marriages and deaths, as we know it, at that time in Pennsylvania. The start dates seem to vary from state to state, often from surprisingly late on.
In the US they only seem to use those darned initials for their middle names! I sometimes wonder if they even knew what they stood for themselves. So even if John had signed that will, it would probably have been as John L Jones!
Your best hope would be if John and Mary married before they arrived in America
This might be the lady named in John's will to be guardian of granddaughter Mary - Ann Morgan the wife of William L Morgan. In Sharon, Mercer, in 1900. Both were from England. Can't find their marriage either (which was probably in America?)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01i23/
John
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Hi Jon,
I wouldn't know where to start to find John L and Mary marriage at the moment. I hope they married before they went out there. Thank you for the link
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This might be the lady named in John's will to be guardian of granddaughter Mary - Ann Morgan the wife of William L Morgan. In Sharon, Mercer, in 1900. Both were from England. Can't find their marriage either (which was probably in America?)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01i23/
The census says they went to the US in 1870 and have been married 20 years (c1880) so it does look like a US wedding.