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General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: coombs on Saturday 23 July 16 17:23 BST (UK)
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London is one city that the true size of can be called into dispute. Some say anything within the M25, or anything within the County Of London, or just the London past districts.
In our ancestors times, until early 1889, apart from the City of London, the rest of "London" was in the counties of Middlesex or Surrey. But London was a conurbation long before 1889, so surely the word London must have applied to the built up area which by the 1850s stretched out to Haggerston, Kensington, Peckham etc. In 1851 an ancestor living in Westminster said he was born "London Middlesex". In a London book it says that until the 1840s Camberwell was a place of gentility and even rusticity.
My great, great grandfather was born a few hundred yards north of Oxford Street in 1860, the Tottenham Court Road sub district, the most inner city district of the borough. I myself would go for "St Pancras, London, Middlesex" rather than "St Pancras, Middlesex" as it was an inner city street.
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You're forgetting the bits of "London" which were in Essex or Kent!
As a Lancastrian with only vague knowledge of London's geography, I had trouble sorting out a tree for a friend of the family whose ancestors came mostly from the East End.
I had to get myself a map showing the old parishes to make sense of the addresses. I found that Hoxton and Haggerston were in Shoreditch, and Mile End was in Stepney.
I ditched the concept of "London", except for "City of London". I occasionally use it as a temporary marker where a person quotes it as, say, a place of birth, until I can locate a closer location.
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You're forgetting the bits of "London" which were in Essex or Kent!
As a Lancastrian with only vague knowledge of London's geography, I had trouble sorting out a tree for a friend of the family whose ancestors came mostly from the East End.
I had to get myself a map showing the old parishes to make sense of the addresses. I found that Hoxton and Haggerston were in Shoreditch, and Mile End was in Stepney.
I ditched the concept of "London", except for "City of London". I occasionally use it as a temporary marker where a person quotes it as, say, a place of birth, until I can locate a closer location.
Oh yes such as Greenwich, Plumstead once in Kent or West Ham, once in Essex. In EastEnders world, Walford was probably once Walford, Essex. The current county of London was created in 1965 and now places like Dagenham and Romford are within the county but many people from them still call themselves Essex people. Even if born in the County Of London, which Dagenham and Romfordcome under.
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London has not always been the Capital has it?
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2 things! ;D
You forgot to mention parts of Hertfordshire!
e.g. Barnet and Potters Bar.
And there is no current County of London; it was abolished in 1965, and replaced by Greater London.
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Am I correct in believing that the Greater London County Council was abolished?
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Am I correct in believing that the Greater London County Council was abolished?
In 1965 London County Council was abolished and replaced with Greater London. (as I said!)
There has never been a Greater London County Council ;D
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_of_London
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When my ancestors lived in London late 1700s the only county it had spread into was Middlesex.
I've found a map dated 1300 - laughably the measurements are per 250 metres which gives an inkling of how small it was in those days.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_London#/media/File:Map_of_London,_1300.svg
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Am I correct in believing that the Greater London County Council was abolished?
In 1965 London County Council was abolished and replaced with Greater London. (as I said!)
There has never been a Greater London County Council ;D
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_of_London
But there was a Greater London Council 1965-1986 and is a
Greater London Authority from 2000
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_London_Council
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When my ancestors lived in London late 1700s the only county it had spread into was Middlesex.
So Southwark was in Middlesex when Chaucer was writing Canterbury Tales? I don't think so!
Maybe your family begat all those cabbies who famously refuse to go sarf of the river!
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When my ancestors lived in London late 1700s the only county it had spread into was Middlesex.
So Southwark was in Middlesex when Chaucer was writing Canterbury Tales? I don't think so!
Maybe your family begat all those cabbies who famously refuse to go sarf of the river!
lol - "coachman in London" as per a Yorkshire baptism record. Parents earlier marriage eventually found in St George Church, Hanover Square, London.
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All of my "London" ancestors seem to have had records which put them in the appropriate part of Middlesex. The confusing bit is where Boroughs or registration disricts are also parish names so you aren't always sure if two records refer to the same person. (Don't start me on the errors this has caused on some published trees in Ancestry)
Early modern London would be the City and small parts of Middlesex, Surrey and Kent. Various rural settlements like Hackney and Walthamstow only gradually became absorbed. At what point the residents started thinking of themselves as Londoners is an interesting piece of human geography but probably beyond our reckoning. Romford certainly, as a market town in its own right, with a hinterland across the new county boundary has hung on to a "county" identity far later than Ilford or Walthamstow.
I don't normally watch Eastenders but from what I remember of the intro Walford is probably west of the Lea so in Middlesex not Essex.
For geneological purposes I would try and keep to parish level where possible but would never consider "London" as going beyond the current congestion charge zone.
EDIT - correcting typo
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My ancestor born in 1860 was deffo born in an area what was considered "London" by then, as said he was born in Colville Place, near Tottenham Court Road. His daughter, my great gran was born Sep 1889 in south Islington, several months after the County Of London was created.
In the 1860s her mother lived in Stoke Newington and Bow, which was on the fringes of the conurbation back then.
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A good way to look at this is via maps. A journey through time:
http://mapco.net/london.htm
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.....places like Dagenham and Romford are within the county but many people from them still call themselves Essex people. Even if born in the County Of London, which Dagenham and Romfordcome under.
I lived in Upminster and Romford, and have Dagenham as the registration district listed on my passport, but always say i was born in Essex. 😀
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A good way to look at this is via maps. A journey through time:
When it comes to what people put in records it is as much a matter of perception and how people think of themselves.
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London has not always been the Capital has it?
Romans Colchester then Londinium (London) and York,
Late Saxon (Wessex) Winchester
Remember though that there was no real integration of England between the Romans leaving early 5th century and the Norman invasion 11th century.
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I wonder if there has been any precise boundary for London.
In 1750 the built up area stretched to Shoreditch and Bethnal Green in the east, Southwark to the south, Westminster to the west and Clerkenwell to the north. I would count anyone born in that urban sprawl at that time as Londoners. The City is what the conurbation grew out of.
In 1850 it stretched to Hackney and Stoke Newington to the north east, Bow to the east, Bermondsey to south east, Camberwell to the south, Kensington to the west and Islington to the north. I would count anyone born in that urban sprawl at that time as Londoners.
Today when I go to London it does feel like a city in a huge orchard in many areas. Views from the DLR make the East End look like towerblocks and motorway systems and factories are built in the forest.
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Good evening,
I think this link demonstrates it best. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_of_London
The county of London came into being in 1889 and in 1900 the 28 metropolitan boroughs were formed. this covered an area roughly bordered by Hammersmith, Hackney, Greenwich, Lewisham and Wandsworth.
Anyone born outside of this area would not be a Londoner until the formation of the Greater London area. Although the built up area now extends well beyond those boundaries it was made up of dozens of separate towns and villages in the rural counties which surrounded London.
Even those places mentioned would have been separate towns and villages at one time. They would all have had their own councils.
John915
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Good evening,
I think this link demonstrates it best. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_of_London
The county of London came into being in 1889 and in 1900 the 28 metropolitan boroughs were formed. this covered an area roughly bordered by Hammersmith, Hackney, Greenwich, Lewisham and Wandsworth.
Anyone born outside of this area would not be a Londoner until the formation of the Greater London area. Although the built up area now extends well beyond those boundaries it was made up of dozens of separate towns and villages in the rural counties which surrounded London.
Even those places mentioned would have been separate towns and villages at one time. They would all have had their own councils.
John915
Interesting. I know actor David Jason was born in 1940 in the North Middlesex Hospital, Edmonton, and this was well outside the County Of London until 1965. So David is not a Londoner really, he grew up in Finchley. He is from a place that was then close to London, that only became part of London in 1965.
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There is an excellent series of historical atlases of London, available from Stantons, and I have found them invaluable for unravelling my London / Middlesex / East End family lines. I commend them to anyone needing to do the same.
They are:
The A-Z of Elizabethan London
The A-Z of Jacobean London
The A-Z of Georgian London (not currently available)
The A-Z of Regency London
The A-Z of Victorian London
The A-Z of Edwardian London
Each is a fully indexed reproduction of a full period survey of "Greater London" (for want of a better expression) as it existed at the time, together with a full historical introduction to the survey explaining when, why and by whom it was made.
The growth of London can be traced very effectively once you have hte entire series, as I have.
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My 4xgreat grandmother Ann Goodacre was born in 1777 in East Lane, Bermondsey. Address given on baptism record. In 1777, East Lane was on the very outer fringes of Bermondsey, heading towards Rotherhithe. At that time Bermondsey was near London, rather than in London itself. In 1815 an ancestor died and mentioned his son of Bermondsey, near London.
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Correction to my previous post - the second in the series is called the A-Z of Restoration London (not Jacobean London)