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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: jackie563 on Friday 22 July 16 05:01 BST (UK)
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Hi
I am wondering would anyone know where or how I could look for my Grandfathers ww1 war record..I have looked in
National archives england and I have alot of info from ancestry.com.what I know so far is
Arthur Nelson Robbins
Born 18th march 1900 and died june 1974
he enlisted in the Royal Expeditionary Force at age 14 years, he was sent to Russian front.he completed hisservice in 1921 in ireland..found some medal records with rank cpl 4334618.
would love to be able to findbout more about his war life and maybe where in russia where he was sent..I seem to have difficulty search as I am still a beginner..like looking in trove, must be doing something wrong as when look up names of husbands relatives it takes me days or weeks yet you ppl on here found something on here within half hour was so amazing..
please what am I doing wrong
thank you so much in advance just for reading this
jacqueline
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Have you seen this?
http://www.greatwar.co.uk/research/military-records/british-soldiers-ww1-service-records.htm
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Thank you for finding that link, looks like his records would have been burnt, as I cant fins anything..
I was shocked to learn his age 14 years old and seeing and experiencing the things he did is quite upsetting...
thanks again
cheers
jacqueline
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Might I suggest that you ask the Moderator to move this topic to the WW1 board, where there are people with a lot of knowledge.
The service number (4334618) you quote appears to belong to Cpl A N Robbins of the E Yorkshire Regiment, and he was not awarded any medals in WW1, which is a little strange if he went to Russia. :-\
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he enlisted in the Royal Expeditionary Force at age 14 years, he was sent to Russian front.he completed his service in 1921 in ireland..
For personnel who were serving after 1920, their records will still be with the MOD.
See here for details of how to apply:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/requests-for-personal-data-and-service-records
There is a fee of £30.
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How old do you think he was when he was sent overseas?
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According to family stuff kept clippings and such he was 14 and the c ouple of years later his brother ran off without concent and enlisted as we have a letter with her actually begging for the war department to send him home as he was also under age and in the letter it says her older son the 14 year was in russia..
I found a photo of him standing outside some office on steps when he wS afew years older with the Princess Royal and some Lady Syble Kenyon Slayney and he was wearing 4 Medals he was wearing his medals again when hecwas handing in some Nomination papers for something dont know yet as I dont know how to research newspapers in Bradford yet
thanks
jacqueline
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The medal card for 4334618 Cpl AN Robbins East Yorks has the written note "Oi/c Records York fwds (forwards) list of indivs (individuals) who claim to have been awarded Russian decs (decorations) and requests instructions thereon" It is dated 25 11 1920.
There is also a card for a Lieut AN Robbins of the Slavo British Legion which took part in the Russian intervention. I haven't been able (yet) to find East Yorks although the 6th Bn Yorks (Green Howards) were there and in any event, he wouldn't necessarily have to have deployed with his own battalion. The deployment was in 1918/19 so he had a bit of time to grow in experience!
Further - his number is one of the new numbers allocated to the East Yorks in 1920. I am also intrigued by the medal roll entry for 30266 Pte AN Robbins of 1st Bn East Yorks, formerly 10th Bn 57162 who is noted as still serving when the roll was issued on 8 May 1920.
However, these are simply bits of a jigsaw. You'll get the picture on the box (so to speak) if you follow KGarrad's advice as all this seems to confirm, along with your family info about serving till 1921, that his detailed docs will still be with MOD.
And then let us know please!
PS just seen your post. If the photo is good enough, post it, the medals may be identifiable.
maxD
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Hello again
I found this
arthur nelson robbins
corps w york
e york r
private regn no 57162
30266
victory medal 0/1//102 BO page 954
prince of wales own regiment
east yorkshire regiment
absolutley no idea what this means....I wish I asked more questions when I was young
thank you all for helping
jacqueline
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See my post before yours. This is the record I was "intrigued" about - could be your man before his number was changed (for the third time) in 1920. You need his record from MOD.
maxD
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As MaxD said he was part of the international force sent to Russia in 1918/19 to support the "White Russians" against the Bolsheviks.
Commonly called Churchill's war it was a dismal & costly failure & most of the men returned home pretty much by the end of 1919.
My understanding is that no Medals were struck for this campaign, however if he was amongst the early arrivals there he may have qualified for the BW & V Medals as he was in a theatre of war.
It might help if you could give a close up of his medals so we can try & id them.
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Jackie,
I don't know if you are aware but there is an excellent website called 'The Long Long Trail'. On it you will find sound advice about researching individual soldiers and a wealth of other information regarding all things WW1. There is also the Great War Forum which is specifically WW1 related.
You'll probably end up hooked on the subject. I asked a simple question once which has led me on a 25 year journey and I'm still finding information about the 8 members of my family who served in WW1
Simon
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here is the best close ups i can get hope it helps
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Military Medal, 14/15 star, BW & V Medals.
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Thank You all so much for putting up with a very beginner at searching.
going to go read the long long trail now and look up what the medals looked like in colour..
Cheers
jacqueline
Australian war Memorial is great it has photos of soldiers, my husband found his uncles photos..England seems hard and expensive eh.
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His medal card?
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D4880422
Reference: WO 372/17/16755
Description:
Medal card of Robbins, Arthur N
Corps Regiment No Rank
West Yorkshire Regiment 57162 Private
East Yorkshire Regiment 30266 Private
I brought one of these for $11 (I am a Kiwi), it had my gr.grandfathers first theater of war on it and matches the numbers engraved on the rim of his medals. It did prove he had seen combat. All other records were in the burnt records.
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Hello
I went to national archives and paid and downloaded the medal card but no new information on it got more info on here from all you helpers
Cheers
jacqueline
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You can buy lengths of the ribbons for most of the medals from all campaigns
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See: http://www.1914-1918.net/soldiers/themedals.html
and: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Medal
I used The Mess Dress to get a set of medals and ribbons, and miniatures, for a friend:
http://www.messdress.com/shop/medal-ribbons/wwi-wwii-ribbons.html
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Jacqueline - you have yourself indicated that military matters are a new area to you and Mancpal's suggestion of sites to start you off with researching is a good one. That said, I fear that some replies may have served only to confuse. I have taken the liberty of sending you a PM to show how the medal cards and medal rolls fit into the big picture and to expalin why it is that none of what is cited can, with 100% certainty, be said to belong to your Grandfather and what you can expect if you send for his record.
I've had a brief look at newspapers for your man. Those I have access to show only a conviction in 1934 for speeding (at 28 mph!!) in Foston Lincolnshire of Arthur Nelson Robbins of Bradford who wrote in mitigation that he was an ex-soldier with six children and a Military Medal from the war and a fine driving record- a number of previous convictions were found and he was fined £1.
maxD
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Can see only 1 Arthur Robbins awarded all 3 Medals:
10452 Pte. Arthur Robbins 6th. & 1st. E. Yorks. Regt.
Theatre entered 2b (Balkans) 14/7/1915.
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I saw him also Jim1 and have mentioned him in a PM to jackie563. Also (cross check) that I find no 14/15 Star for the A N Robbins.
However, AN Robbins roll says serving, A Robbins says -Class Z A.R.
I know what Class Z is, any idea on A.R? Can't also find a MM award in the Gazette, I've lost my sub to the Times.
I've pointed out that this illustrates why, because cards/rolls cannot, usually, be tied to an individual 100%, it is important (unless there is some other evidence) to get his records.
maxD
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Agree his service record is a must.
As far as I'm aware Class Z A. R. = Army Reserve.
It's possible I suppose that he re-enlisted.
I couldn't find his MM either.
Message to poster:
How accurate is the info. that you've been given ?
I ask this as there were no British at the Russian Front. That was a Russian/German conflict & I've never heard of the Royal Expeditionary Force.
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jim1 - Jacqueline will no doubt be in touch but my feeling is that "Russian Front" is simply what the man on the Clapham omnibus (or in this case a family on the bus) would call "Churchill's war" that you have cited.
A re-enlistment would also explain a blank MIC with an post 1920 number.
But, as I know you would agree, more possible jigsaw pieces while the box with the picture on remains with MOD.
maxD
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Just have to hope that 4334618 Robbins & 10452 Robbins are one in the same.
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Indeed, which prompts a further question for Jackie563.
Going back to your first post, you said you had medal records with the 4334618 number. Is there any other info in the family (the medals/correspondence of the time??) that confirm that the number actually belongs to him? As you've seen, there are other possibilities which is what is behind jim1's post.
maxD
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According to family stuff kept clippings and such he was 14 and the c ouple of years later his brother ran off without concent and enlisted as we have a letter with her actually begging for the war department to send him home as he was also under age and in the letter it says her older son the 14 year was in russia..
jacqueline
I think maybe the reference to "Russia" could actually have been to "PRUSSIA", which is part of Germany. I've seen a few references to Yorkshire regiments being in East Prussia which is now part of Poland.
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The British army was in Germany as part of the post war force of occupation but not during.
There wasn't a Prussian front.
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Please see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/236th_Brigade_(United_Kingdom)#Order_of_Battle. The ORBAT includes 6th and 13th Bns Green Howards (Yorkshire) which is pretty likely to be what is referred to here.
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I agree the "Russian Front" referred to is the action there as part of the International Force.
It would make sense if he was still in the 6th. when that happened & transferred to the 1st. after the 6th. broke up on return.
The "Royal Expeditionary Force" may refer to this or is meant to be the BEF.
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The British army was in Germany as part of the post war force of occupation but not during.
There wasn't a Prussian front.
Hi - I know nothing about WWI except I know my grandfather always said he fought "The Huns". (I've found a piece on this link which shows the origins of the term http://www.firstworldwar.com/atoz/hun.htm ).
Having researched a branch of my family who lived on mainland Europe during the 19th century when there were several power struggles, one of which was instigated by Bismarck, I just want to clarify what I meant by "Prussia". History shows that we fought Germany, but to be pedantic, we fought the German Empire, a large part of it was made up of "The Kingdom of Prussia".
Uploaded from https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Prussiamap.gif
is a map entitled "The Provinces of the Kingdom of Prussia (green) within the German Empire (1871–1918)" This shows how many original self governing principalities and states eventually came under Prussian rule.
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If Jacqueline, knows who had this mans medals his service number will be inscribed on the rim, lots of people do not even realise that they are there
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Should it be of interest, his younger brother, Herbert Harold Robbins, joined the Tank Corps in 1919. His mother wrote and asked that he be discharged. The army refused as he was over 17 when he joined up (if a man was serving in a technical corps that was the age rule). He was however discharged in 1920 with defective eyesight, later joining the West Yorks Territorials, attending annual camps in 1923 to 1927 and later still transferring to the Royal Field Artillery Territorials. His records are on Ancestry.
The letter from his mother has another minor clue to his brother. It is dated 13 Jun 1919 and states that the brother is in Russia. She also states that he (the brother) has been in the army for 2 years 6 months. That may solve the mystery of another document not mentioned so far found on FindMyPast which is the attestation record of Arthur Nelson Robbins at Bradford on 13 Feb 1917 (about right) although, to make that even more frustrating, that record says he was transferred to the Royal Flying Corps. No subsequent RFC or RAF record has been found (yet!). There is where he lied about his age, stating he was 18 years and 33 days old! However, his birth was registered in Q2 1900 (his mother confirms he was 19 in 1919) so he was actually 16 and a bit when he joined up. She also says that she is "on her own" - one wonders whether the father, also Arthur Nelson Robbins, was in the army still at that date? He was about 45 at war's end, not impossible.
However (again), despite the tantalising clues, there can be no real progress without a service record.
maxD
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attestation record of Arthur Nelson Robbins at Bradford on 13 Feb 1917
The man in the photo has the 14/15 Star.
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Yes he does and an MM for which no record is yet found??
As we've found earlier, it is the 10452 Arthur Robbins East Yorks 6th and 1st, Balkans 14 Jul 1915 (6th Bn Suvla Bay Aug 1915 via Mudros) who has the full set. The 57162 10 West Yorks then 30266 1st East Yorks Arthur N Robbins who has only BW and V medals but still serving May 1920. The blank card for 4334618 AN Robbins with note about Russian decoration and new 1920 number - who knows.
So father/son?? Son wearing father's medals?? Vice-versa?? Other explanation??
Can't be solved without applying for the (fill in the rest of the sentence yourselves!).
maxD
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Come in Jackie563
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Another cross check (using the SWB comparison method). 10452 E Yorks number was issued in August 1914 so beginning to lean towards the medal wearer being this man and that he is the father or son is wearing his medals).
maxD
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If it was the son wearing his father's medals wasn't the etiquette to wear them on the right lapel ?
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Hello
sorry not been able to respond, but all I know is what I have read in bits and pieces of stuff I have found and read.i
dont know if what has been written is correct as none of my aunts and uncles are alive.no idea where medals would be or if anyone had them.
I did find out his motheri think left his father not sure when or why or whatever happened to her but I dont know if his
Father was in the war, ive seen nothing written about it anywhere.i didnt even grow up knowing him, my family moved to Australia when I was 8 years old and thst was when I last saw my grandfather.
but I would like to thank you all for everything you have done
jackie
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You are very welcome, good luck whichever way you want to proceed with this.
maxD