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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: janjim on Sunday 17 July 16 06:29 BST (UK)
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Hi,
We are having considerable difficulty in finding what happened to Humphrey Hall who was Licensee of various Hotels around Sydney, the Mariners, Royal Oaks 1875, GV Brooke Hotel 1874, Exchange Hotel George Street. He married Mary O'Carroll in 1874, she was the Licensee of the Burbank Hotel at Balmain. We do know that Mary had a baby at the Mariners Hotel, Lime Street, Sydney a couple of years later, after seeing a Notice placed in the Sydney Morning Herald, asking her Aunt to make contact with her.
Since then we cannot find any further information on the family, no census records, or deaths, so maybe they moved away from NSW altogether.
We have found a Humphrey Hall who died in Kalgoorlie W.A. in 1899, aged 57 years, but whether this was the person we are looking for, just don't know. We have no idea of his birth date, or of his wife Mary unfortunately, but she could have migrated from Ireland, cannot verify that totally either.
Guess our answer is to get a copy of the marriage certificate in the end, but I would really appreciate it, if there is someone out there who could assist, in any way
janjim.
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Hi,
NSW Police Gazette 14th May 1884 shows that the Exchange Hotel in Sydney was robbed and Humphrey Hall was the Licensee.
Gerry
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You seem to have this
Humphrey Hall and Mary J O Carroll marriedBalmain New South Wales 1874
There is a family tree on Ancestry that lists Humphrey marrying Mary 1974 and when he was born 1850 in Boree New South Wales his parents were father John age 37 mother Susannah nee Morrow age 36 he died 1876 Newcastle new South Wales he was 26. His mother passed away Orange New South Wales 1876.
Pam
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Thanks for that, another little snippet of info for him.
jan
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At RChat's NSW Resources Board there's various links to free to search sites.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369703.0
City of Sydney Assessment Books are available there
http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/house-and-building-histories/assessment-books
Sands Directories are there
http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/sands-directory
JM
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Thanks Pam, every little bit of information is helping. We are particularly interested in his wife, don't suppose there was any information on her as well
jan
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NSW Electoral Roll 1878 WEST SYDNEY
Humphrey HALL, 54 Sussex St, leasehold.
JM
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Thanks everyone, picked up a few addresses up to 1930 now, hopefully the right Humphrey Hall.
jan
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I was wondering if Mary didn't die and Humphrey remarry?
6362/1892 Humphrey Hall to Emily Pevis PETERSHAM
Deaths:
789/1886 Mary J Hall age 22 died SYDNEY
Possible death notice placed by her mother Mrs Carroll of Balmain.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13635316?searchTerm=%22Mary%20carroll%22&searchLimits=l-title=35|||sortby=dateAsc
Only one birth recorded to a Humphrey Hall up to 1900
39677/1893 Lionel P Hall father Humphrey mother Emily WOOLLAHRA
Death for Emily Hall, 1945 in Sydney, saying widow of Humphrey:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/27922224?searchTerm=%22Humphrey%20Hall%22&searchLimits=l-title=35|||sortby=dateAsc|||l-category=Family+Notices
Do you have names of any siblings for Humphrey?
Jamjar
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jamjar,
Thank you, this could be our Mary Hall, thank you for this information. No, we don't know of any siblings for Humphrey.
jan
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jamjar,
The only thing is with that death in 1886, the age could be wrong I would think. The notice that went in the SMH asking Sophia Briscoe to make contact with her niece at the Mariners Hotel, that was 1878, she was then Mrs. Hall. Are we certain of the age of 22 years for Mary's death, if so, that would have made her 14 when this notice went into the SMH, suppose in those days, it could be possible. Could be a typo error of course. Mary was Licensee of the Burbank Hotel in Balmain in 1874 after her marriage to Humphrey Hall.
But the Balmain connection seems to tie in, we are going to get marriage certificate, to see what other information we can find now.
jan
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"... We do know that Mary had a baby at the Mariners Hotel, Lime Street, Sydney a couple of years later, after seeing a Notice placed in the Sydney Morning Herald, asking her Aunt to make contact with her."
I cannot see this birth in NSW BDM Index. Can you identify the birth please. Are you suggesting some connection between knowing about the birth, and the location........and the appearance of the notice in the paper?
Are you researching the origins of this child, and working with information from a later marriage certificate?. If so, can you please give all the information on the certificate.
SMH 5 Sep 1878 p1
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13420143?
This is the ad in the newspaper....and you believe that the Mrs H HALL is your Mary J O'CARROLL, and is also the niece of Sophia BRISCOE?
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NSW Electoral Roll 1878 WEST SYDNEY
Humphrey HALL, 54 Sussex St, leasehold.
JM
Sands 1877
H HALL, Royal Oak Hotel 54 Sussex St
Mrs Mary Ann HALL, Hyde Park Hotel, Cnr Castlereagh & Bathurst Streets
Seems that there's than one female publican in the Sydney area who was named Mary Ann HALL at that time.
JM
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I too had trouble finding the birth of the child. It only popped up on Trove when I did a search for Mariners' Hotel Lime St. I can't find it again, but I think is was 1880 something.
The death reg I found for Mary saying 22 I have written as it was on NSW BDM. There are other possibilities on BDM.
I also saw that the Balmain Pub had licencee Joseph Carroll, In 1872:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/60857201?searchTerm=%22Burbank%20Hotel,%20Balmain%22&searchLimits=
I had a look on the Balmain Cemetery register and there are no Mary Carroll but there are Mary Hall. Having said that there appears Hall was not an uncommon name in the area, at the time.
Here we have Humphrey's Royal Oak licence transferring to George Hall. Now if only I could find a link to a sister Margaret, as there is a funeral notice for Margaret with request by brothers. Was he Catholic/Protestant?
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13405708?searchTerm=%22Humphrey%20Hall%22&searchLimits=sortby=dateAsc|||l-state=New+South+Wales
George gives it back in 1881:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13498300?searchTerm=%22Humphrey%20Hall%22&searchLimits=sortby=dateAsc
The Trove marriage notice has Emily's surname as PIERCE, which makes sense as to why BDM lacked Pevis'. ;)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/162191771?searchTerm=%22Humphrey%20Hall%22&searchLimits=sortby=dateAsc|||l-state=New+South+Wales
Mr Joseph Patrick Carroll of Burbank Hotel death notice and funeral notices 1873:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13321857?searchTerm=%22Joseph%20Carroll%22&searchLimits=sortby=dateAsc|||l-state=New+South+Wales
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13321895?searchTerm=%22Joseph%20Carroll%22&searchLimits=sortby=dateAsc|||l-state=New+South+Wales
Jamjar
Added: These are the children of Joseph and Mary, all registered at Balmain Could it be that the Mary Carroll who had the Burbank in 1874 was actually the mother? Yes, the 22 year old death could be Mary A, as seen below.
Simon CARROLL 2504/1863 died 12 June 1865
Mary CARROLL 2683/1865
Joseph CARROLL 2663/1867 died May 1900
Ann CARROLL 2759/1868
Emilie CARROLL 2935/1872
I'm now thinking that the marriage cert is the ONLY clue to this puzzle. ;)
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http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13405708?searchTerm=%22Humphrey%20Hall%22&searchLimits=sortby=dateAsc|||l-state=New+South+Wales
The Trove marriage notice has Emily's surname as PIERCE, which makes sense as to why BDM lacked Pevis'. ;)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/162191771?searchTerm=%22Humphrey%20Hall%22&searchLimits=sortby=dateAsc|||l-state=New+South+Wales
Mr Joseph Patrick Carroll of Burbank Hotel death notice and funeral notices 1873:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13321857?searchTerm=%22Joseph%20Carroll%22&searchLimits=sortby=dateAsc|||l-state=New+South+Wales
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13321895?searchTerm=%22Joseph%20Carroll%22&searchLimits=sortby=dateAsc|||l-state=New+South+Wales
Jamjar
Added: These are the children of Joseph and Mary, all registered at Balmain Could it be that the Mary Carroll who had the Burbank in 1874 was actually the mother? Yes, the 22 year old death could be Mary A, as seen below.
Simon CARROLL 2504/1863 died 12 June 1865
Mary CARROLL 2683/1865
Joseph CARROLL 2663/1867
Ann CARROLL 2759/1868
Emilie CARROLL 2935/1872
I'm now thinking that the marriage cert is the ONLY clue to this puzzle. ;)
The Humphrey HALL who died in Dec 1940 (with wife and one son) was a well known journalist.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/17707264?searchTerm="Humphrey HALL"&searchLimits=#
Maybe......the widow Mary CARROLL did then marry the publican Humphrey HALL??
Essie
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This took some doing, Mrs Mary Hall 1895 funeral notice invite from her son Joseph P Carroll. No mention of a husband or a Humphrey.
So, Humphrey did marry the widow, to be sure.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14006345?searchTerm=%22Joseph%20Carroll%22&searchLimits=sortby=dateAsc|||l-state=New+South+Wales|||l-title=35|||l-category=Family+Notices
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Thank you for all your replies, will get back to you a little later, had to go to the hospital today for my husband's day surgery, so apologise, will check it all out and reply fully.
jan
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Sorry to hear it.
No rush. :D
Jamjar
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"We have found a Humphrey Hall who died in Kalgoorlie W.A. in 1899, aged 57 years, but whether this was the person we are looking for, just don't know."
From WA BDM site it has him as age 62. All other area say unknown, so wouldn't be much use getting that cert. There were a heck of a lot of 'Hall' in that cemetery.
Jamjar
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Hi Jamjar and Essie,
Thank you so much for all of this research you have done for us. I think now that we have found the whole situation in regard to Mary Hall, especially finding her death in 1895, we won't worry too much about finding more information regarding Humphrey Hall, as it appears that the child they had does not show up in records, although newspapers indicate the birth.
Basically we were trying to get to the bottom of the story in regard to Mary Hall, and now having found that she was married previously to Joseph Patrick Carroll and had 5 children to him, this probably is where we should remain in regard to her research. It would seem that maybe the Madden family now come into the picture, maybe that was her maiden name, after seeing one of the SMH publications. When we get the marriage certificate, hopefully this will give a clearer picture on her.
We originally found SMH information requesting our G G Grandmother, Sophia Briscoe to make contact with her niece Mrs. Hall at the Mariner's Hotel, Lime Street, Sydney. We were never aware that there were any other family members in Australia.
Sophia Briscoe came to Australia in 1849 shown on shipping records, as a Widow with her 5 children from Dublin Ireland. She was married to a John William Briscoe who was an Attorney in the 4 Courts of Dublin, and we have records up to 1846 indicating he was still operating in Dublin, but from there on, we cannot find a death for him. Why Sophia came to Australia, we do not know, but maybe they came upon hard times in Ireland, maybe John Briscoe left her, but at this stage cannot find any shipping records for him either. Sophia Briscoe b. 1813 was formerly Kennedy, her father a very well known Attorney, George Kennedy, in Dublin. There are many articles written about both gentlemen.
But we are now thinking that Sophia made the decision to come to Australia to be near her other family members, now that we have found Mary Hall. Of course Mary Hall her niece could be from either side of her family, her own, or maybe her husband John Briscoe's family.
We are struggling to get to the bottom of this, but we have ascertained through Irish records that Sophia had siblings, Charlotte b. 1802, Frederick b. 1810, Thomas, Brian b. 1813, Elizabeth b. 1814, George and Elizabeth b. 1819.
So were are on the search now to find any other family members who came to Australia before Sophia's arrival in Sydney 1849. She was shown as a House Servant, a Widow, could read and write and was a Protestant, although half of her children were baptised in the Catholic Church, the other half in the Church of Ireland. We have found various SMH newspaper cuttings for Sophia where she was working for some people in the early 1850's around Sydney.
So I thank you all for your help, it looks like now, we will have to go back to more research in Ireland, once we find more details on the marriage certificate. Fortunately Australia's certificates are much better detailed than the UK, will give us a much better insight into the family.
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It's always good to get a mystery solved.
I would be interested in what is on the marriage cert if you could give and update upon it's arrival.
I read about Sophie in court. What a colourful character. She would have been fun to know.
Happy seeking.
Jamjar
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Jamjar,
Yes will certainly do that, as soon as we get the marriage certificate, you may be able to help us further, who knows. We really appreciate your assistance, and oh yes, Sophia has been seen as quite a character, daughter of an esteemed lawyer, really wonder what happened over in Ireland. We cannot even find any newspaper articles on her husband, a person with such high esteem in Dublin, surely the papers would have shown something on his death, they certainly did for Sophia's Father.
There is much history on Sophia's family working on the waterfront of Sydney Harbour, son George had a big business as a Van Proprietor and Shop at Miller's Point, his wife Mary's family were very involved in the building of the famous Donnelly boats at Balmain, and Sophia's brother Henry had a newsagency on the waterfront.
It appears that Sophia and her family must have come to Australia as assisted immigrants, you would have thought they would have had money, but as I've said previously, maybe they hit hard times in Ireland. Maybe one day we will find out what happened to her Husband (our GG Grandfather).
Jan
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My interest was aroused at the mention of Balmain. I'm an old Balmain girl with many of the males being merchant seaman. I was looking at the Sands Directory and it was bringing back memories seeing all those street names. Also had relatives living at Milson's point who were all merchant seamen.
Ah, so George our van chappie was Sophia's son.
Would love to assist, just give a yell.
Jamjar
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Sophia came over during the Ireland Potato Famine. A good reason to skip town if you can afford it.
"Beginning in 1845 and lasting for six years, the potato famine killed over a million men, women and children in Ireland and caused another million to flee the country. Ireland in the mid-1800s was an agricultural nation, populated by eight million persons who were among the poorest people in the Western World."
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Hi again,
Yes we were very aware of the potato famine, but you wonder about John William Briscoe her husband, maybe he fled to the USA or somewhere else.
My husband did a lot of sailing around Sydney Harbour, in his early days, in fact he sailed on one of the Donnelly boats, did not know of the family connection in those days, and finding so much history for this family, particularly on all the boats that Joe Donnelly designed has been quite amazing. Of course we knew nothing of the Briscoe's either until these last couple of years. It has been quite a journey.
Have found a Margaret daughter of George Kennedy, Attorney in Dublin who married in 1831. Still searching there.
We think we have just found more information on Mary, her Mother was Catherine who died at Mary's house in Datchet Street, Balmain in 1866. Still searching !
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Yes, that looks to be her mother:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13129069?searchTerm=%22datchett%20street%20balmain%22&searchLimits=sortby=dateAsc|||l-category=Family+Notices|||l-state=New+South+Wales
Catherine Madden 1622/1866 father John mother Catherine Balmain
and this is a likely for her father:
Andrew Madden 7809/1874 father Patrick Shoalhaven - no mother given.
Andrew death notice: http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13338209?searchTerm=%22Andrew%20madden%22&searchLimits=sortby=dateAsc|||l-category=Family+Notices|||l-state=New+South+Wales
Mary's marriage notice: http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13063625?searchTerm=%22Andrew%20madden%22&searchLimits=sortby=dateAsc|||l-category=Family+Notices|||l-state=New+South+Wales
Jamjar
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............ When we get the marriage certificate, hopefully this will give a clearer picture on her..
May I suggest you consider ordering an official transcription rather than the 'real deal' certificate. You will get all the same info that the real deal document has, it is cheaper, and arrives as email attachment. Itis possible that there's blanks on that civil registration. NSW BDM's own website acknowledges that their registers are not complete, and makes the suggestion to follow up with the church registers.
If there are elusive blanks on the full Official Transcription, then here's a thread that may help.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=546609.0
Here's NSW BDM's webpage with the contact details for their official transcription agents.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/family-history.aspx#transcription
JM
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Thank you, once again, also for your suggestion regarding transcriptions rather than the real deal.
Jan
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It's looking like Mary may have been born in Ireland, as there is only one birth to an Andrew and Catherine.
Catherine Madden 434/1853 V1853434 70
Yet, there are 3 lads deaths that could possibly be theirs.
James Madden 14576/1901 Newtown
Michael Madden 792/1878 Sydney
Patrick 4460/1857 Shoalhaven
Death notice for Michael:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/111096881?searchTerm=%22Michael%20madden%22&searchLimits=sortby=dateAsc|||l-category=Family+Notices|||l-state=New+South+Wales
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Thank you again, we now have to get the connection of Mary to Sophia Briscoe, will get there eventually. Wonder which side of the family, Sophia's or John W. Briscoe's.
Jan
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Sophia's immigration record says she has no relatives in the colony. The MADDENs didn't arrive until 1851.
Andrew was the son of Patrick MADDEN and Mary LYNCH, his sister Susan and her husband Michael PURCELL had arrived in 1839.
Catherine had no relatives in the colony and I am having a bit of trouble with her parents' surnames - first names John and Eliza.
Debra :)
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Debra, where did you find the immigration records? I've been trying to search on NSW State Records and the site has been down for searching for at least the past week?
Jan, I'd be asking the question about needing a possible Madden/Briscoe link on the Ireland Board. The Link could be to mother Catherine's side also, I guess.
Jamjar
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Debra, thank you for that information, does the immigration records show much more details, including whether Sophia was sponsored by someone in Australia.
jan
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The immigration records are on a subscription website and no mention of who sponsored Sophia and family. Sophia BRISCOE tried to sponsor a woman named Mary EMMIT in 1874. She was said to be aged 30 but was found to be aged 44 and was refused a passage.
I do wonder if the newspaper ad referring to Sophia's niece was actually meant to be 'care of' Mrs H. HALL, not Mrs HALL herself.
The MADDENs were from Co. Clare.
Debra :)
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Yes, I think that Mrs H HALL is possibly the contact, rather than the niece herself.?
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Debra, are you able to tell me what part of Ireland Mary Emmit came from?
Yes and you could be right, maybe a misprint re niece.
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Jamjar
Well we haven't got marriage certificate yet, but we have found an Ann Briscoe who married a William Carroll in Bathurst on the 10.6.1854. Sophia Briscoe's daughter was Ann, and she was working with her Mother Sophia at Mr. Mannings property in 1851, as shown in previous Police records.
Hopefully this is our Ann Briscoe, but interesting she married a Carroll, as did Mary Madden marry Joseph Carroll in 1861.
This Ann Briscoe (Carroll) then married in 1883 to John Marlin, and she died at Leichhardt in 1885, same year as her Mother Sophia.
Hopefully we will come up with the right connection now.
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The Briscoe/Carrol marriage could just be a coincidence. Looks like John Marlin died in Bathurst.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/158666746?searchTerm=%22John%20Marlin%22&searchLimits=sortby=dateAsc|||l-state=New+South+Wales|||l-category=Family
Jamjar
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Yes quite possible a coincidence, but every time you find something like this, you certainly get your hopes up.
We did go through a Transcript person for the marriage, so hopefully we will get a little further with this. Have to have patience !
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Jamjar,
well we have transcript of the marriage of Humphrey Hall and Mary Teresa O'Carroll which took place on the 15.10.1851 at St. Augustines Church, Balmain
Groom: Humprey Hall, Bachelor, born Ireland, Grocer, aged 35 years living at Balmain, Father George Hall, Farmer and Mother Margaret Quilty.
Bride: Mary Teresa O'Carroll, Widow, born Ireland, 31 years of age, Balmain, Father Andrew Madden Farmer, and Mother Catherine Byrnes.
Bit of discrepancy with surname O'Carroll.
Now to find out which side family connection with Sophia Briscoe.
jan
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From what I discovered with my O'Leary/Leary ancestors the 'O' was used/not used in equal parts. ;D
I hope you find your connection.
Jamjar
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Hi, Someone asked about Humpreys family. John Hall (1843-1914) and Susannah Morrow (1811-1876) moved their 4 children from Ireland to Australia on the ship John Bright (23 Feb 1845-16 Jul 1845).
Children:William john Hall (1836-1913) married Phoebe Attwood (1849-1885)
James Arthur Hall (1843-1914) married Sarah McCreadie(1844-1907)
John Edward Hall (1845-1913) and Elizabeth Ann/Betty Ann Hall (1848-1915) married Amos Batty (1840-1906). Humprey was born after their arrival. There was an article for a £5 reward to find Humphrey, posted by his father in Orange, NSW. He was aged 10, subject to fits, dressed in a blue pilot coat, moleskin trousers, 3ft 10in, light hair (25 Sept 1861).