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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Tyrone => Topic started by: maisiemo on Saturday 16 July 16 00:15 BST (UK)
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Searching Irish records is new to me and I cannot understand why I am finding it so difficult compared with England/Scotland. I would be grateful for any suggestions.
Here is ALL of the information I have.
My great aunt is Mary Keys, born 22 October 1908, in Findermore, Clogher, Tyrone. I have a copy of her birth certificate.
Her father is Thompson Keys, carpenter, dwelling place Findermore
Her mother is Martha Jane Keys, formerly Keys.
I looked for marriage for Thompson Keys - nothing for wife with maiden name Keys, but there is a record - Thompson Keys married Martha Jane Robinson, 29 Jan 1902.
There is a 1911 census record for
Thompson Keys, Head of family, age 50, birth 1861
Martha Keys, wife, age 36, birth 1875
William Keys, son, 6, 1905
Thompson Keys, son, 4, 1907
Mary Keys, daughter, 2, 1909 - Great Aunt Mary
Thomas, McGirr, boarder
The Aunt Mary story in the family is limited - she is reported to have left home aged 16 years, and taken a boat to England where she found work in the household of a wealthy family named Millington. Her reason for leaving so young was that she had many siblings, but so far I have found only Mary and two brothers.
Mary Keys and George Woods (born 28 Sep 1910) were married in 1938 in Uppingham, Rutland and the rest of their lives were spent Rutland or Leicestershire.
They had one daughter born 1945, died 2014.
George died 10 Dec 1967, Mary died 7 Feb 1987.
I am very familiar with the George Woods side of the family but Mary Keys and her Irish origins are my ‘brick wall’.
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For reference
This looks like her father in 1901 http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Ballagh/Findermore/1726782/
1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tyrone/Ballagh/Findermore/856542/
I see Mary's birth as you say with mother Keys also the son Thompson mother Keys
http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/dfcee70898858
I don't see William.
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My mistake William
http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/23671b1154917
So they all have mother Keys.
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There is only one birth to a Keys and Robinson in Clogher a Lena in Aug 1911
http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/692e1c0335323
Hopefully she is the child of that Thompson Keys Matha Robinson marriage
Do you know if there was a child in the family named Lena, if so the mother's name is incorrect on the other births.
Otherwise could they have married in England?
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There are only two Martha Keys married showing in 1911 and the other is married to a David.
And she is Mulberry http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/6de5026757019
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Yes I saw Lena but I have no idea if she belongs to this family. I did a search for children with surname Keys born between 1900-1920 (or thereabouts) and it found 12. I have tried to trace some of them but even with an unusual surname, it is difficult to be sure where exactly they belong.
I really don't think they married in England. When Mary came over in approx 1924 the story goes that she ran off and got on a boat etc so I don't think her parents were in England.
I have wondered if the mother, when the babies were registered, perhaps misunderstood and gave her married name (twice) so that both Marthas are the same person, the one who gave her name as Keys and the one who married Thompson in 1902. Or she and Thompson could be cousins?? Or if the 1902 marriage is nothing to do with my family, perhaps they were not married. Mary apparently was very secretive about her past.
I have tried to find Thompson's birth in the hope that it would clear up whether there is one Thompson of that age or maybe two. Surely Thompson Keys must be an unusual name???
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I was thinking along the same lines as you.
The marriage cert would have his occupation on it, if you want to go that far with the search.
I always get confused about what you can view on line (for a price) on the Northern Ireland sites but I'm sure someone will explain. I must make a note of it this time.
I think this is the correct site. https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk/
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Try Keyes etc
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Thank you for your help Sinann. I appreciate it. I will look at that tomorrow, or later today. I am past my usefulness for tonight!!
Thank you also hallmark. I didn't think of that. I changed the spelling of Thompson but not of Keys. Another job for tomorrow.
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Name THOMPSON KEYS
Date of Birth 10 February 1906
Group Registration ID 292371
SR District/Reg Area Clogher
Sex Male
Mother's Birth Surname KEYS
plus other Keys, Mother's Birth Surname KEYS on irishgenealogy site
Mother's Birth Surname KEYS
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Link to Keys, Mother's Birth Surname KEYS on irishgenealogy site
Mother's Birth Surname KEYS
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01i0j/
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Computer running updates so can't get to see records but here are Key(e)s record on irishgenealogy 1845 to 1919
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01i0k/
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Just heading out, maybe the following will provide a lead. The 1902 marriage of Thompson Keys to Martha Robinson in Clogher Church of Ireland looks sound because in the civil record, apart from the groom's distinctive name, he was recorded as a carpenter living in Findermore. The bride was recorded as living in the townland of Mullaghtinny and importantly, her father was given as 'not known'.
(to complete the information, the groom's father was also called Thompson Keys - a labourer - and the witnesses were George McLelland and Maria Leslie)
This may well have been Martha in 1901 under the surname Keys: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Aghintain/Lislane/1726629/
However, there were Keys in Mullaghtinny in the 1901 census (Fleming and Rhoda Keys and family), maybe related: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Clogher/Mullaghtinny/1726117/
In terms of geography, Mullaghtinny is the area immediately east of Clogher village, the townlands of Findermore and Aghintain lie to the other side, about 1.5 miles SW and 2.5 miles W respectively.
Finally, note that a Martha Jane Robinson was born in Clogher Workhouse on 20 August 1878, father unknown, mother given as Rhoda Robinson. Rhoda isn't / wasn't a hugely common forename in Ireland... it all raises some interesting possibilities.
Edited to add: Someone also called Rhoda Robinson, living in Killygordon, had a daughter Elizabeth on 29 April 1876, again the father was unknown. And in relation to Fleming and Rhoda Keys in the 1901 census, while I can't yet find a marriage, there were births registered in Omagh to potentially fit children William and John - the mother's maiden name was Robinson (available online via GRONI website) .
Rhoda Keys and sons in 1911: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tyrone/Cloghan/Mullaghtinny/855919/
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A word of caution when searching for children with parents both called Keys- the civil index will also list illegitimate children with mother Keys as Keys so they will appear in your searches.
Here's a very recent death notice which caught me eye as it mentions a Rhoda Keyes and deaceased lived in Clogher-
https://www.funeraltimes.com/janekeys614033879
Wonder if her father John is Rhoda Keys' son John here-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tyrone/Cloghan/Mullaghtinny/855919
and does this probate item belong to this family?
Keys Thompson of Station Road Clogher county Tyrone old age pensioner died 1 October 1958 Administration Londonderry 12 January to John Keys gentleman. Effects £127 1s.
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Other siblings of William, Thompson, Mary and Lena Keys:
- Joseph Keys born 25 January 1915; and
- Charles Keys born 2 February 1917.
In both cases the parents were given as Thompson Keys (carpenter) and Martha Jane Keys of Findermore.
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Regarding Thompson Keys himself (husband of Martha Jane Robinson / Keys), the 1901 census shows him as a 30 year old, the son of Mary, the 1911 census shows him as a 50 year old, the 1902 marriage to Martha Jane shows his father was called the same name.
Just a possibility, but a Thompson Keys was born on 12 November 1865 to parents Thompson Keys (labourer) and Mary Patterson living at Daisy Hill (placename and hill in Lisboy townland). This couple also had a daughter Ellenor Keys on 10 December 1867 (same Daisy Hill address) - fast forward to 1891 when an Ellen Elizabeth Keys living in Findermore with father called Thompson Keys (labourer) married a William Buchanan in Clogher Church of Ireland.
Thompson Keys and Mary Patterson got married in Clogher Presbyterian Church on 18 July 1848, the groom was living in the townland of Bolies, the bride in the townland of Cavanacark (all still in Clogher Civil Parish), both fathers were farmers, hers was called John Patterson, his was called... Thompson Keys.
The PRONI Will Calendars index shows the following administration case, maybe related:
Letters of Administration of the personal estate of Thompson Keys late of Bolies County Tyrone Farmer deceased who died 1 December 1877 at same place were granted at Armagh to Charles Keys of Bolies (Clogher Aughantane) aforesaid Farmer the Son and next of kin of said deceased. (GRONI death record reported age was 86)
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And while the mention of Thompson Keys of Bolies is still fresh, just to note the following marriage. On 14 July 1864 in Fintona Presbyterian Church, Margaret Foster of Draughton (CP of Donacavey), the daughter of farmer Alexander Foster, married someone with the quite singular name of... Fleming Keys, of Bolies, the son of farmer Thompson Keys.
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I am very inexperienced compared to everyone helping me, so please forgive me if I make wrong assumptions. To go back to where I started with Mary Keys, I knew her DOB, and Mary had named the first family house in England that she and George owned "Clogher" so I took a chance on that being her home district in Ireland and requested her birth certificate from the Civil Registration Service in Dublin.
Mary's birth certificate shows her father as Thompson Keys, Findermore (carpenter) and her mother as Martha Jane Keys, formerly Keys. Mary was born at Findermore on 22 Oct 1908. Is this document absolute proof that these facts are correct? This is really all I had to go on, and what I have used as the baseline of my research.
Gaffy, I am intrigued by your possibility of another Thompson Keys and wife Mary Patterson. I suppose what I am asking is does the birth certificate I hold mean that Mary Patterson could not have been my Mary Keys mother?
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If Mary's birth certificate shows her father as Thompson Keys, Findermore (carpenter) and her mother as Martha Jane Keys, formerly Keys. Mary was born at Findermore on 22 Oct 1908.
Is this document absolute proof that these facts are correct? ...Yes!! Unless there was another Mary born at Findermore on 22 Oct 1908!!
On the stuff I posted there are a few Keys with mother nee Keys!!
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Yes I see your lists, hallmark. Loads of information there. I do appreciate your help.
I am sure there is no other Mary born on that day at Findermore!
Broadband playing up for the past 12 hrs or so - keeps throwing me off.
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... Gaffy, I am intrigued by your possibility of another Thompson Keys and wife Mary Patterson. I suppose what I am asking is does the birth certificate I hold mean that Mary Patterson could not have been my Mary Keys mother? ...
I posted the Thompson Keys and Mary Patterson couple as possible parents to the Thompson Keys who married Martha Jane Robinson, not as parents to Mary. Just to summarise what I think, in case it wasn't clear (and yes, some of this is ultimately conjecture, but not without reasonable foundation / context of names, locations, timings etc.):
- the parents of Mary Keys born 1908 were Thompson Keys and Martha Jane Robinson who got married in 1902 - in addition to siblings William and Thompson, Mary had other siblings Lena, Joseph and Charles;
- Mary's mother, Martha Jane Robinson was born 1878 to Rhoda Robinson, father not known, Martha Jane may have had an older sister Elizabeth;
- Rhoda Robinson went on to have other children William and John Keys with Fleming Keys (can't find the Robinson-Keys marriage yet), this is one possible explanation why her earlier illegitimate daughter Martha Jane Robinson sometimes adopted the Keys surname;
- turning to Thompson Keys (father of Mary born 1908 / husband of Martha Jane Robinson), possible parents for him were Thompson Keys and Mary Patterson who got married in 1848 (the father of the Thompson Keys who married Mary Patterson in 1848 was also called Thompson Keys).
Into the mix is the possibility that the Fleming Keys with whom Rhoda Robinson had children William and John, was related to the Thompson Keys that married Rhoda's daughter Martha Jane Robinson in 1902 (possibly an Uncle?).
Rhoda (Robinson) Key's age in the 1901 and 1911 is consistent, suggesting birth c. 1865. If all of this is correct, it would mean she had daughter Martha Jane Robinson when she was 13 (and possible sister Elizabeth when 11). Notwithstanding the consistency, the age may be wrong / understated, I couldn't find a civil birth.
Just to add that I've seen the birth record for John Keys, the 12 year old in the 1901 census return for house 3, Mullaghtinny, it confirms his father as Fleming Keys and his mother as Rhoda Keys, formerly Robinson.
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Thank you for all the helpful input. I know I have been quiet but I am taking it all in. I do have one situation I cannot move on from, somehow.
The Marriage record of Thompson Keys and Martha Robinson, 1902, shows they have both stated that on the day of their marriage they were 22 years of age. This would mean they were born approx. 1880.
The Census of Ireland, 1911, Form A, handwritten, completed by Thomson Keys, and showing his wife Martha, and children, William, Thompson and Mary (my great aunt), also shows that on census day in 1911, his own age was 50 and his wife Martha's was 36, meaning they were born in 1861 and 1875 respectively.
How can that be? How can I go back to the previous generation when there is such a difference in two formal documents at this first generation? He may have written the wrong ages on the census form for some reason, but can I continue without getting to the bottom of it?
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There are a number of reasons why ages in the 1901 and 1911 Ireland census returns can be inconsistent. For example, a specific phenomenon is age inflation due to the passing of the 1908 Act to pay old-age pension to people over the age of 70. More generally however, the reality is that a great many folk back then didn't have the same focus on or care about their birth date as we do today and didn’t celebrate birthdays. As a result, many didn't have an accurate knowledge of their age and many ages on 'formal' documents were simply a guess.
In this particular case...
The 1901 census return (reflecting the position on 31 March 1901) showed a '30' year old 'carpenter master' called 'Thompson Keys' living in 'Findermore' with his 70 year old mother - NOTE, based on handwriting, it looks like Constable James McGrath the enumerator completed the form and it was signed off in his presence by the 70 year old mother Mary (with 'her mark'), who could read, but not write, ie. the information that Thompson Keys was 30 may well have been provided by her.
Ten months later, the 1902 marriage of Martha Robinson describes her husband as 'Thompson Keys', a 'carpenter' resident in 'Findermore', and most importantly... of 'full age'. I'm not seeing the age 22, I'm aware that some online websites use 22 in their transcribed records to denote full age, but regardless, all the actual marriage record shows is that he was an adult (any age).
The 1911 census return showed a '50' year old 'tradesman carpenter master' called 'Thompson Keys' living in 'Findermore' with his wife Martha and 3 children - NOTE, this time, Thompson Keys (who could read and write) completed and signed the form, ie. he himself may well have provided his age.
At reply #15, I have provided a reasonable candidate for the birth of Thompson Keys in November 1865, reasonable in that his father was called Thompson Keys (which matches the 1902 marriage information), his mother was called Mary (which matches the 1901 census return information) and I can link him to Findermore through a potential sibling Ellen/Ellenor.
If that is correct, then Thompson Keys was actually 35 at the time of the 1901 census and 45 at the time of the 1911 census, whereas it looks like his elderly mother who couldn't write described him as 30 in the 1901 census and Thompson described himself as 50 in the 1911 census.
We're still in the area of conjecture and balance of probability rather than beyond reasonable doubt, but I'm fairly comfortable with these age differences.
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He is on the link I posted
If that is correct, then Thompson Keys was actually 35 at the time of the 1901 census and 45 at the time of the 1911 census,..... http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/f5c3f45927228
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http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/7030b83497753
Name THOMPSON KEYS
Date of Birth 1882
Group Registration ID 10932160
SR District/Reg Area Clogher
Sex N/R
Mother's Birth Surname N/R
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Name THOMPSON KEYS
Date of Birth 1885
Group Registration ID 9670964
SR District/Reg Area Clogher
Sex N/R
Mother's Birth Surname N/R
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I agree with gaffy that the records provided add up to belonging to your Thompson Keys, but perhaps another example will help you see how common age discrepancies are,
1901 http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000912447/
Husband and wife are 49 and 48
1911 Husband and wife are both 69
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002586640/
the children's ages are not quite correct showing how they can gain or lose a few years with the passage of time. For example Bridget is 6 in 1901, 18 in 1911.
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http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/7030b83497753
Name THOMPSON KEYS
Date of Birth 1882
Group Registration ID 10932160
SR District/Reg Area Clogher
Sex N/R
Mother's Birth Surname N/R
GRONI gives birthdate as 19 Mar.1882 and mother's name Porter
Name THOMPSON KEYS
Date of Birth 1885
Group Registration ID 9670964
SR District/Reg Area Clogher
Sex N/R
Mother's Birth Surname N/R
GRONI gives birthdate as 5 Apr,1885 and mother Keys (either illegitimate or mother's maiden name also Keys)
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https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=825793.msg6894042