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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Glamorganshire => Topic started by: Smokey20 on Friday 15 July 16 14:51 BST (UK)
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Hi, I'm not completely new to family history but am stumped by a puzzle and am hoping someone on here can help, or at least suggest the way forward.
I'm looking for the wife of James McCarthy, a general labourer in Little Frederick St, Cardiff in 1881, aged 50 (with son James and his wife Ellen). James McCarthy senior died in Cardiff on 15 March 1891, aged 70 (so 10 years older than according to the census). Death registered by son James.
James junior was born in Cardiff around 1856/57 according to his marriage certificate and the censuses from 1881 til 1911 (he died in 1918, aged 62), but there is no birth registered in Cardiff in the 1850s of a James McCarthy with a James father. But there is a baptism at St David's RC church, Cardiff, on 10 May 1853, parents James McCarthy and Johanna, nee Sullivan. And 2 other children, John 8 Feb 1850 and Mary 23 March 1851. There is a death and burial - at St David's - for 9 year old Mary, daughter of James McCarthy, in March 1860, resident at 12 Ruperra Street, where a number of Sullivans were living in 1851. So the McCarthy - Sullivan link is beginning to look good.
I've found a burial at St David's for a Johanna McCarthy, on 14 August 1856, aged 35. Bought the death cert - asked for only if husband James - and it's arrived, but has thrown up a puzzle.
- wife of James McCarthy, general labourer
- informant Lewis Sullivan [surname same as Johanna's possible maiden name, but no other record found for a Lewis or Louis Sullivan in Cardiff]
- died in Canton, Llandaff - not what I expected, some way away from central Cardiff.
Then I noticed the date of death was 3 August, which surely means it's not the same person as the burial on the 14th.
I have now discovered another burial, at Llandaff, for a Johanna McCarthy, aged 35, of Canton, on 5 August, which presumably matches the death certificate.
But it seems strange that there are 2 Johanna McCarthy burials, both aged 35, within 2 weeks of each other, only a few miles apart, yet only one death was registered. I know not all births were registered in the early days but I had a feeling deaths were, or am I mistaken?
Any help or advice would be much appreciated.
Thanks.
Edited to add: as yet unable to find either James in the 1851, 1861 or 1871 censuses. But have all I need from James junior's marriage in 1880 onwards, thanks.
Edited again (sorry) to say that both burials appear in the NBI (one under Cardiff, the other under Llandaff).
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Could James' birth around 1856 be registered under his mother's maiden name (have you found the marriage of his parents?) - Sullivan?
Another reason his birth might not be there, perhaps Johanna died giving birth to him, and for whatever reason, his birth just wasn't registered.
Looking at both Johanna's deaths - have you looked at newspapers to see if there is anything written on the deaths? Does either certificate give an address of death?
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Thanks for the reply Katharine,
Hadn't thought to look for a James Sullivan birth registration, partly I guess as I'm not yet sure if his mother was a Sullivan. But yes, it could be that she died giving birth to him - the death cert I have says cause was 'puerperal peritonitis'.
No marriage found in Cardiff, quite possible to have been in Ireland (James senior was born in Ireland). The RC burial for Johanna says 'ex Cork' in the notes.
Not looked in the papers; I'm afraid these families were often living 20-30 in small terraced houses, many could not read or write. No death notices found until 1920s onwards.
Johanna's death cert merely says Canton, Llandaff.
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possible from 1851?
4 Stanley St, St Mary's HO107/2455 foio423 pgs 24 - 25
John McCarthy head mar 36
Margaret wife 26
Michael son 5 scholar
Elica mother widow 55 labourer's widow
James lodger 40 labourer
Johannah wife 30
Jeremiah son 7
Mary dau 1 month
Thomas Buckly lodger 25 ag lab
Daniel Buckly lodger 21 ag lab
Jeremiah Barry lodger 20 ag lab
all born Ireland, all McCarthy except where noted
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Thanks osprey,
I saw that a few weeks ago but discounted it (perhaps too quickly) as it doesn't fit with the John baptism in Cardiff in 1850. Also Mary, while a good match at 1 month old, matches the March 1851 baptism (in Cardiff) - but the census says born in Ireland. Could she have been born in Ireland but travelled straight away and was then baptised in Cardiff :-\
On the other hand, Stanley St is in the right area, and I do have family in the street in later years.
Will keep it in mind, in case James is a brother to John (head), as then Elica is James's mother too.
Thanks for the help.
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the date of the 1851 census was March 30. I can't find a time for the passage from Ireland at that time, but it won't have been long. Present day ferries to Pembrokeshire take up to 4 hours.
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Thanks osprey, double checked the baptism entry for Mary, dau of James and Johanna (I have a photo of the original register).... she was born on 21 March and baptised on 23 March, so not really a month old by the census.
It doesn't solve the issue with the John baptised in Cardiff in 1850 but not with the family in 1851 though (not that I can find a burial at St David's)... would families have travelled back and forth in those days, I assumed that having left (escaped) Ireland that was it....
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unless it was just easier to note everyone born in Ireland on the census. I doubt there was any spare money to go back & fore.
Did St David's have a burial ground? If not, where did the burials take place?
:-\
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No, St David's didn't have a burial ground, so burials took place in the local Anglican parish until Cathays cemetery opened in 1859.
I was looking at the NBI again last night, and there are quite a lot of double entries, one for St David's and one for an Anglican parish, though the others are all on the same day, so perhaps the Catholic priest attended and therefore recorded the burials of his parishioners.
I was expecting James' wife to have died somewhere around St David's (ie in the centre of Cardiff as it is today) so was concerned at the death in Canton and burial at Llandaff. But maybe she had gone to her family - which i don't know anything about at the moment - to be looked after (as a Sullivan recorded the death) and was therefore buried within their parish. Perhaps the burial was simply recorded with the wrong date in the St David's register 🤔
Given the other double entries and only one death registration, i think i'm happier now that i have found the death of James' wife and will record it in my tree (still to be confirmed as my James' wife though) as death on 3rd August, burial at Llandaff on 5th and noted in the register at St David's on the 14th
Many thanks for your help.
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one thing that came to me about a death in Canton was that it could have been in the workhouse in Cowbridge Road, but this site mentions an infirmary being added in 1872, too early for Johanna's death. Unless that was a new purpose built one & there was one within the main building earlier.
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Cardiff/
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Hadn't though about the workhouse, thanks osprey (though i thought it was included on the death certificate - i have several of those, including James, her possible husband).
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It looks quite likely that this is one family group, the three baptisms at St David's in the early 1850s, the 1851 census in David Street, and the deaths and burials of Johanna McCarthy (nee Sullivan) in 1855, and 2 of her children, John aged 10 days in Feb 1850 (which then agrees with the 1851 census), and Mary in 1860.
But, i still can't link them to the James McCarthy who married Ellen Barry in Cardiff in 1880 and were then living with James' father in 1881, as i can't find the Jameses in 1861 or 1871. There is one good looking family, with a new wife / mother called Margaret. But james and margaret are on the 1881 so this cannot be the ones i'm looking for.
And i can find no record of a Lewis Sullivan (who registered Johanna's death in 1856) in Cardiff at all.
Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks.
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Hi Smokey.. sorry have not read everything on your post but I remembered the migration of Irish! They came to Cardiff in the mid 1850's. Here is a link, hope it helps? I have read up on it and found they did not fit in easily at the time because of the (same old) taking jobs from the Welsh! There were quite a number of assaults and a few murders on both sides. If I can I will put that link on sometime!
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=292018.0
Nannie Mcphee
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Thanks Nannie McPhee, an interesting topic, and an amazing series of links. I will have a good look at those tonight.
Having great trouble finding my Irish ancestors, even with all the new records now available online.
Thanks again.