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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: GemmaL on Friday 08 July 16 13:47 BST (UK)
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My family has a photo of Uncle Ralph Barron and we can't seem to find any military information about him on Ancestry. I'm assuming it's more likely to be first world war than second because of the flags but his uniform for me isn't giving anything away so I would just like to share and see if anyone has any ideas.
Sadly all that is written on the back is "Poor Uncle Ralph". We also have no idea why it says that, we don't know if he died in the war or was injured because our research is coming up with nothing.
Anyway any help would be greatly appreciated.
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hi gemmal
and welcome to rootschat.
its possible he was in the royal artillery or at least some sort of mounted regimet going by the crop under his arm , can you give us some personal info on him such as year and place of birth anything may help track him down .
regards
trevor
ps the added pic of a field gun may be an indicator as well
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Hi Gemma and welcome to Rootschat....where was the Family from?
Name: Ralph Barron
Spouse: Ann Lilian Gadsby
Birth: abt 1884
Marriage: 21 Feb 1916 - Parish Church South Shore B'pool
Residence: 1912 - Martor Folds ?? Blackpool
Is this him?
Carol
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Perhaps the 'frame', by including images of navy, airforce and army, and was a generic one appropriate for photos of any serviceman.
And yes, everything points to it being WW1.
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hi gemmal
and welcome to rootschat.
its possible he was in the royal artillery or at least some sort of mounted regimet going by the crop under his arm , can you give us some personal info on him such as year and place of birth anything may help track him down .
regards
trevor
ps the added pic of a field gun may be an indicator as well
Thank you, for replying
He was born abt 1891 in Hetton-Le-Hole, Durham, sadly that's all we know other than his parents who were Ralph Barron abt 1856 (so original at picking names there) and Mary J Cruddace abt 1854
I never even thought about the crop, but it's his buckle I'd love to identify, I just wish the photo showed a little lower, oh well. Hopefully you can find something :)
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Do you have the original Gemma?
It looks like there may be more to the photo but the mount is covering it. Can you remove the photo from the mount?
(not sure I would attempt this but you may be able to peek at his buckle perhaps?)
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Do you have the original Gemma?
It looks like there may be more to the photo but the mount is covering it. Can you remove the photo from the mount?
(not sure I would attempt this but you may be able to peek at his buckle perhaps?)
Sadly the copy we have is how you see it because it's a postcard, I just wish I knew where the original ones. Pretty sure someone might still have it lurking around (wishful thinking)
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I think this has possibilities...the address should read "Hutton Le Hole" and is mistranscribed...He is listed as Harrison.... Father Ralph
Name:
Ralph Baron
Gender:
Male
Document Year:
1914
Residence Place:
Stanley Hull
Relationship to Soldier:
Father
Form Title:
Descriptive Report on Enlistment
Number of Images:
11
Other Records:
Family Members:
Name
Relation to Soldier
Harrison Baron Self (Head)
Ralph Baron Father
Carol
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There is a 1 month old Ralph Barron in Hetton le Hole (Co. Durham) with parents Ralph and Mary J. in 1891 :-\
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I think this has possibilities...the address should read "Hutton Le Hole" and is mistranscribed...He is listed as Harrison.... Father Ralph
Name:
Ralph Baron
Gender:
Male
Document Year:
1914
Residence Place:
Stanley Hull
Relationship to Soldier:
Father
Form Title:
Descriptive Report on Enlistment
Number of Images:
11
Other Records:
Family Members:
Name
Relation to Soldier
Harrison Baron Self (Head)
Ralph Baron Father
Carol
I think Hutton-Le-Hole is Yorkshire and I know Hetton is near Durham so I'm not sure that's the right one sadly
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He was discharged Medically unfit due to Congenital Mental ???
His address looks something like
3, Lorne Terrace,
Stanley Street,
H le Hole
Carol
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There is a 1 month old Ralph Barron in Hetton le Hole (Co. Durham) with parents Ralph and Mary J. in 1891 :-\
Yeah I have that census saved on Ancestry, along with the 1901/11. The problem is we don't know what actually happened to him after 1911 ??? And there are so many Ralph Barron's in the military at that time it's really hard to pin down which one is correct.
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He was born abt 1891 in Hetton-Le-Hole, Durham, sadly that's all we know other than his parents who were Ralph Barron abt 1856 (so original at picking names there) and Mary J Cruddace abt 1854
Where did you get this information from?
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Sorry...I meant Hetton not Hutton.
Carol
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He was discharged Medically unfit due to Congenital Mental ???
His address looks something like
3, Lorne Terrace,
Stanley Street,
H le Hole
Carol
Is this for Ralph Barron or Harrison because I've not come across a Harrison in my tree so far?
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Harrison.
Carol
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possibly this is him royal army service corps army no r4/066007
sadly no service record exists for any of the 4 r barrons listed in ww1 mics the above seems most likely .
regards
trevor
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possibly this is him royal army service corps army no r4/066007
sadly no service record exists for any of the 4 r barrons listed in ww1 mics the above seems most likely .
regards
trevor
Thank you for looking, I'm just going to have to do some more digging :D
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Not convinced he's from a mounted Regt. The "crop" might be a baton.
ASC usually had a lanyard over the left shoulder.
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There's also this one 18399 Pte. Ralph Barron 7th. & 1st. Border Regt.
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Not convinced he's from a mounted Regt. The "crop" might be a baton.
ASC usually had a lanyard over the left shoulder.
I'm with jim1 on that, it looks rather thick to be a riding crop, my own thoughts are it's a walking out stick or baton and the "Mount" of the photograph is possibly one which was produced in a large quantity for photographs of soldiers maybe took in studios prior to going off to war.
He also looks to be wearing a post 1915? economy tunic.
Frank.
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Swagger stick? There is not much of whatever it is showing in the photo.
Odd background to be a professional photo - doesn't look to be taken in a studio. What do you think Jim?
It does look like the mount was mass produced and families could just slip a photo of their serviceman behind it.
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The stick means nothing. The economy tunic points to 1915/1916, supported by the flags of our WW1 allies less the USA.
The buckle will be standard general issue. So unless the back has an address it really is only useful to confirm Ralph was in the army in 1915/16 when he was in his early 20s.
Ken
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My family has a photo of Uncle Ralph Barron and we can't seem to find any military information about him on Ancestry. I'm assuming it's more likely to be first world war than second because of the flags but his uniform for me isn't giving anything away so I would just like to share and see if anyone has any ideas.
Sadly all that is written on the back is "Poor Uncle Ralph". We also have no idea why it says that, we don't know if he died in the war or was injured because our research is coming up with nothing.
Anyway any help would be greatly appreciated.
The background suggests to me that it is either military stables or huts in a military camp.
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It is a professionally taken picture possibly at the end of his training period.
The mount is obviously predominantly Naval & the inclusion of the Japanese flag appears to confirm it with the RFC & RA snippets stuck on.
So was this taken at or near a Naval base ?
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It is a professionally taken picture possibly at the end of his training period.
The mount is obviously predominantly Naval & the inclusion of the Japanese flag appears to confirm it with the RFC & RA snippets stuck on.
So was this taken at or near a Naval base ?
Yes, or an Army camp
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This is a difficult one....have you found a marriage or death for him?
Could this be him:
Name:
Ralph Barron
Birth Date:
abt 1890
Age:
44
Port of Departure:
Vancouver, British Columbia
Arrival Date:
7 Jun 1934
Port of Arrival:
Liverpool, England
Ship Name:
Harpasa
Search Ship Database:
Search for the Harpasa in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database
Shipping line:
Messrs Henry Tyrer and Company Ltd
Is this his death record:
Name: Ralph Barron
Birth: abt 1891
Death: Jun 1964 - Durham Northern, Durham, England
Could this be his wife:
Name: Ada Barron
Birth: abt 1890
Death: Dec 1964 - Durham Northern, Durham, England
Carol
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Not convinced he's from a mounted Regt. The "crop" might be a baton.
ASC usually had a lanyard over the left shoulder.
. The ASC had horse transport
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There is something not quite right about the "mount" postcard. I think it may be a postcard showing all the services...navy, army and air (at least I think that is supposed to be a bi-plane on the right)
The cutout looks a bit strange the way it is cut around the plane... and I wonder if it was just an ordinary postcard with something in the centre that someone in the family has cut out to make it into a mount.
There are lots of examples of "united we stand" postcards if you google including this one which looks to have been produced with a photo of high ranking officer in middle. My guess is the person has cut out the official picture and put their own in its place.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01hyp/
Milly
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It is a professionally taken picture possibly at the end of his training period.
The mount is obviously predominantly Naval & the inclusion of the Japanese flag appears to confirm it with the RFC & RA snippets stuck on.
So was this taken at or near a Naval base ?
Thanks Jim. If the photo was taken at a training base, that probably explains the building in the background. :)
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The cutout does look odd, but I think it has been done commercially. The oval shape would be very difficult to cut out with a pair of household scissors - this looks nice and even. Presumably the bits around the plane would have been less detailed to make them stronger when cut out? :-\
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It's that plane thing that I think makes it unlikely to be a mount. Seems odd to have been designed with a mount that has something sticking out over the photo. But as an overlay on a picture montage thing it would. Razor blade to cut it out?
Either way it doesn't help identify the photo - I just thought it interesting
Milly
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My family has a photo of Uncle Ralph Barron and we can't seem to find any military information about him on Ancestry. I'm assuming it's more likely to be first world war than second because of the flags but his uniform for me isn't giving anything away so I would just like to share and see if anyone has any ideas.
Sadly all that is written on the back is "Poor Uncle Ralph". We also have no idea why it says that, we don't know if he died in the war or was injured because our research is coming up with nothing.
Anyway any help would be greatly appreciated.
have you tried to remove the photo from its mounting?
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have you tried to remove the photo from its mounting?
Please read replies #5 and #6.
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I looks like a template is used then the soldier's photo is turned into a postcard:
http://www.ebay.ie/itm/United-to-Conquer-WWI-First-World-War-Postcard-/391461498498
Same template...different soldier.
As a postcard collector...I have seen many variations of these.
Carol
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I looks like a template is used then the soldier's photo is turned into a postcard:
http://www.ebay.ie/itm/United-to-Conquer-WWI-First-World-War-Postcard-/391461498498
Same template...different soldier.
As a postcard collector...I have seen many variations of these.
Carol
Possibly stood outside of the same building looking at that. :)
Frank.
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I looks like a template is used then the soldier's photo is turned into a postcard:
http://www.ebay.ie/itm/United-to-Conquer-WWI-First-World-War-Postcard-/391461498498
Same template...different soldier.
As a postcard collector...I have seen many variations of these.
Carol
Happy to be proved wrong Ruskie
Milly
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The cutout does look odd, but I think it has been done commercially. The oval shape would be very difficult to cut out with a pair of household scissors - this looks nice and even. Presumably the bits around the plane would have been less detailed to make them stronger when cut out? :-\
It is quite possible that the post cards were manufactured by women and girls at home. Embroidered Post Cards were produced in France and Belguim during WW1 and sold to British and Empire troops. I still have some of those sent by my grandfather to my mother.
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Nah!!!!...commercial enterprise.
Carol
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I wonder if the Post card was manufactured by "Ward, Lock and Co.Ltd"
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I wonder if the Post card was manufactured by "Ward, Lock and Co.Ltd"
Were they postcard manufacturers? I thought they were a book publishing company :-\
Frank.
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So did I Frank....not that it is relevant anyway ::)
Carol
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Good evening,
The soldier in Carol's link is the Lincolnshires, faint possibility of them both being the same regt and time of photo taking.
Carol's link also has what looks like a watermark on the rear but not sure.
John915
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Good evening John....If you turn it sideways you can see the outline of the soldier....I can't see a watermark though.
Carol
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Good evening Carol,
Yes, I can see that now, I just saw the shape and thought watermark. So the photo is a postcard and has the front stuck over it.
John915
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Good find of a similar postcard on ebay Carol.
I looks like a template is used then the soldier's photo is turned into a postcard:
http://www.ebay.ie/itm/United-to-Conquer-WWI-First-World-War-Postcard-/391461498498
Same template...different soldier.
As a postcard collector...I have seen many variations of these.
Carol
Happy to be proved wrong Ruskie
Milly
It was just a guess on my part Milly, considering myself to be fairly adept with a pair of scissors and a stanley knife, and having tried to cut out lots of things for school projects etc, and failing miserably when it came to cutting circular mounts and circular things in general. ;D
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Good afternoon,
A careful study of both the original card and Carols link show them to be absolutely identical. I think the printer has taken a naval postcard, possibly battle of Jutland so pre American involvement. They have then pasted on the field gun and plane, made a cutout which includes around the flags. Then they have reprinted the result to be used as shown.
A look at any photo in the same front with a photo showing same background would perhaps tell us a lot. Also finding the original naval card if my theory is correct.
John915
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The naval image does predominate - and the army image and plane do look like an afterthought, so you're probably right John. :)
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oh my goodness thank you all for the replies. I'll send and image of the back now because I saw a comment about the photo studio.
I clearly lack good google skills because I had struggled to find any postcard with the same imagery now I have the other postcard to go from too. It seems possible they could have been taken at the same time due to the background.
He really is a mystery to us, or at least what happened for him to be called "poor uncle Ralph"
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Nice one Gemma
See here for more:
http://www.worldwar1postcards.com/war-wounded-and-the-ramc.php
I don't know why I didn't think of this site before...I have used material from here many times for exhibitions.
Carol
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Nice one Gemma
See here for more:
http://www.worldwar1postcards.com/war-wounded-and-the-ramc.php
I don't know why I didn't think of this site before...I have used material from here many times for exhibitions.
Carol
Thanks for the link, I love things like this :D
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Gemma have you found him on the 1939 register...there is one entry for Ralph Barren but I can't give the details as it's not allow just yet.
Carol
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Gemma have you found him on the 1939 register...there is one entry for Ralph Barren but I can't give the details as it's not allow just yet.
Carol
Yeah I've seen that... It could be him but we haven't a clue if he got married or not ???
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Ralph is shown as one month old in the 1891 census (5th April)
Does this fit with the date of birth given for Ralph Barren in 1939?
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Index to the 1939 shows Catherine Barren in the same household.
Ralph Barren married Catherine Hindmarch, Gateshead, 1919.
Interestingly, 'your' Ralph's birth seems that have been registered under the surname Barren rather than Barron.
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Index to the 1939 shows Catherine Barren in the same household.
Ralph Barren married Catherine Hindmarch, Gateshead, 1919.
Interestingly, 'your' Ralph's birth seems that have been registered under the surname Barren rather than Barron.
Don't get me started on different spellings of names haha!
I have the 1891/1901/1911 census and he's either Barron or Baron... as far as I know it's spelled "Barron" because my GG Grandmother wrote it like that, but then again the Spark side of my family all spelled that different too... So confusing when even direct relatives spell names different.
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Index to the 1939 shows Catherine Barren in the same household.
Ralph Barren married Catherine Hindmarch, Gateshead, 1919.
Interestingly, 'your' Ralph's birth seems that have been registered under the surname Barren rather than Barron.
More or less Jen....I would agree.
Carol
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Ralph is shown as one month old in the 1891 census (5th April)
Does this fit with the date of birth given for Ralph Barren in 1939?
Gemma, please can you answer this question which I posed in reply #53?
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Sorry Jen...I thought you were asking me.
Carol
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Sorry Jen...I thought you were asking me.
Carol
:D
Don't get me started on different spellings of names haha!
I have the 1891/1901/1911 census and he's either Barron or Baron... as far as I know it's spelled "Barron" because my GG Grandmother wrote it like that, but then again the Spark side of my family all spelled that different too... So confusing when even direct relatives spell names different.
I have got some Barrons in my line too (way back), so I've been there, done that :D
Nonetheless, his surname on registration is Barren (unles it's been mistranscribed ::) )
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Ralph is shown as one month old in the 1891 census (5th April)
Does this fit with the date of birth given for Ralph Barren in 1939?
Gemma, please can you answer this question which I posed in reply #53?
I think it fits yes :)
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Oh...finally...the penny drops ;D ;D ;D
Carol
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Index to the 1939 shows Catherine Barren in the same household.
Ralph Barren married Catherine Hindmarch, Gateshead, 1919.
Interestingly, 'your' Ralph's birth seems that have been registered under the surname Barren rather than Barron.
It says "Barren" on the postcard back too.
Carol
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Index to the 1939 shows Catherine Barren in the same household.
Ralph Barren married Catherine Hindmarch, Gateshead, 1919.
The marriage certificate will show whether this is indeed 'your' Ralph or not. Given that you say the birth date 'fits' it looks moderately promising?