RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Dorset => England => Dorset Lookup Requests => Topic started by: ndmhine on Friday 08 July 16 13:31 BST (UK)
-
I'm wondering if anyone can suggest any further avenues of research after I have exhausted all the ways I can think of to further trace my wife's ancestor Sophia KAY / KAYE
She makes quite an impression on the historical record later in life, but I cannot find her origins documented anywhere. She marries James Forster Knight (~1751-1808) in 1777 at Langton Long Blandford, Dorset (mistranscribed as Sophia HAY in some records). They have at least 5 children including John Baverstock Knight (1785-1859) who was a sufficiently famous artist to have an entry in the Dictionary of National Biography, stating:
"Knight, John Baverstock (1785–1859), land surveyor and painter, was born on 3 May 1785 at the rectory, Langton Long Blandford, Dorset, the third of eight children of James Forster Knight (1751–1808), captain, 3rd Dorset militia, and his wife, Sophia (1751/2–1820), daughter of Colonel John Kay. His parents lived at the Down House, Blandford St Mary, which Knight had inherited with Littleton and Langton manors. John was baptized at Langton rectory, home of his aunt (wife of the rector, Dr J. H. Ridout), on 28 May 1786. Knight was educated privately at home, then at Mr Longman's Commercial School at Child Okeford. "
Furthermore, in the baptism for John Baverstock Knight it lists parents as "James Knight and Sophia his wife, formerly Kaye" (http://www.opcdorset.org/WinterborneFiles/W.Whitchurch/WWhitechurchBaps2.htm)
In an announcement of the marriage to James Knight she is listed as "Miss Kaye, of Blandford"
When she dies in 1820 she is given an age indicating birth in 1751/2.
You might think that was plenty to go on to help find baptism and parents of Sophia, but I have drawn a complete blank. No records of her anywhere. Nor can I find anything about any Colonel John Kay. Perhaps he was a Colonel of the Dorset Militia, like James Forster Knight?
John Honyfield Ridout is well documented, and marries Jane Knight (John Baverstock Knight's sister) in 1828, but that cannot be the marriage they talk about when saying he was baptised at his aunt's home. However, there is no record I can find of J H Ridout marrying anyone previously. Unclear if the aunt is a sister of his mother or his father.
The Kay family clearly lived in Blandford at one point, and were well-off, but Sophia may not have been born there. It is all a bit of a puzzle, and I would appreciate any thoughts from experts on Dorset family history on what trace there might be of them?
-
The witnesses to Sophia's marriage were two Ridouts, the first is J (followed by possibly H) Ridout and the second signature is clearly H Ridout.
There is a Lieutenant Colonel John Kay death reported in 1795, but he appears to be from Scotland.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01hyg/
-
John Honyfield Ridout was baptised in 1768 s/o John Ridout, who had married Honyfield Coker the previous year. I think they were the marriage witnesses, The first sig starting with J isn't clear, I could be trying to make and H out of the "ohn" of John.
JHR became rector of Langton Long in 1792 a few years after JB Knight was baptised at the rectory. But biographies written some time after the event may have got the facts a bit muddled. The recory was the home of JBK's aunt, but somewhat later than his baptism.
-
"Knight, John Baverstock (1785–1859), land surveyor and painter, was born on 3 May 1785 at the rectory, Langton Long Blandford, Dorset, the third of eight children of James Forster Knight (1751–1808), captain, 3rd Dorset militia, and his wife, Sophia (1751/2–1820), daughter of Colonel John Kay. His parents lived at the Down House, Blandford St Mary, which Knight had inherited with Littleton and Langton manors. John was baptized at Langton rectory, home of his aunt (wife of the rector, Dr J. H. Ridout), on 28 May 1786. Knight was educated privately at home, then at Mr Longman's Commercial School at Child Okeford. "
Furthermore, in the baptism for John Baverstock Knight it lists parents as "James Knight and Sophia his wife, formerly Kaye" (http://www.opcdorset.org/WinterborneFiles/W.Whitchurch/WWhitechurchBaps2.htm)
In the Langton Long register on Ancestry, it doesn't mention he was privately baptised at the rectory. Seems a normal entry for public baptism in church.
His older brother also called James Foster Knight is noted to have been privately baptised (24 Oct 1784).
Odd that the three children should appear on the Winterbourne Whitchurch register, two of them having previously baptised a few years earlier.
-
Thanks - good spot regarding the inconsistency in dates of Ridout's Rectorship. Not sure what to make of that but it does cast doubt on the accuracy of that biography.
The Scotland connection is certainly interesting, since literally the ONLY Sophia Kay baptisms in the period 1740-1760 listed on familysearch are both Scotland:
Sophia Kay, Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950
birth: 27 September 1749
christening: 27 September 1749
DYSART, FIFE, SCOTLAND
father: James Kay
mother: Margaret Tod
Sophia Kay, Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950
birth: 10 January 1744
christening: 10 January 1744
CAWDOR, NAIRN, SCOTLAND
father: Cha. Kay
mother: Jean Falconer
I had discounted them as a) too far away, b) not the right year and c) not the right name of the father, but perhaps I should reconsider. "James John" was used as a family name later, so perhaps the Dysart one could be her. Would need some form of corroboration, though. Not sure where to start investigating Lt Col Kay - anyone know how to investigate military officers from this period?
-
I thought that out of the Scottish baptisms the Sophia in Dysart was most promising, but there is a Sophia Kay marrying in Dysart in 1782, which could be her.
If her father was in the army when she was born, she could have been born wherever he was posted - possibly overseas. It would be good to be able to confirm his regiment, the 1795 death might be just a coincidence - the name isn't too unusual.
-
Just found a newspaper report of army promotions, it looks like Major John Kay of the 12th foot was only promoted to Lieutenant Colonel in 1790, so would not have been a colonel when Sophia married. Was the mention of the rank contemporary with the marriage? or only mentioned in a later biography of her son - in which case they could have reported the final rank attained.
-
The only mention of John Kaye is in the DNB entry. I have discovered there is a biography of John Baverstock Knight that might have more detail. It is not online though, and copies only exist in a handful of libraries so I am unlikely to get to read it any time soon.
-
Just in case it's useful to anyone later, I did find a possible baptism, on ancestry.com, but I can't link it to the Sophia Kay in Blandford in 1777.
Sophia Kay, baptised 9 Oct 1751, St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey, Surrey
daughter of John Kay, and Rosa Kay. John is listed as "Wharfinger, Mill Street"
John Kay and Rosa Hill seem to have been married in August 1750, at St Benet Paul´s Wharf (he is listed as being of St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey). Rose and John had another child (William) and then she died in 1760.
I cannot link any of the above to the Sophia Kay mentioned in Blandford later, but hers is the only recorded bith by that name in that year.
-
Timing sounds about right, but a wharfinger seems a long way from a Colonel.
Going back to the Scottish Colonel John Kay, his will is available from the National Archive for a small fee.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D320119
-
Just found will on Ancestry. No mention of a daughter Sophia, in fact I can't see any mention of any children of his own or a wife.
-
I found all sorts of references to the Lt Col John Kay who was in the 12th regiment of foot, but I have nothing at all to indicate that this could be the same person who was the father of Sophia.
He must have enlisted in the army around 1756 and eventually rose to the rank of Lieutenant-Colonel in the 12th Regiment of Foot. He was wounded at the battle of Minden in 1759 and was commended in some way.
Wounding at Minden: https://archive.org/stream/recordoftwentyfi00canniala/recordoftwentyfi00canniala_djvu.txt
Promotion to Lieutenant: http://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/ViewArticle?id=BL%2F0000545%2F17680801%2F015%2F0055&browse=true
Promotion to Brevet Major: http://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000554%2f17801127%2f016
Promotion to Major: http://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000045%2f17860621%2f003
Discussion of his acquiring Glenboig: https://archive.org/stream/strathendrickits00smit/strathendrickits00smit_djvu.txt
MIDDLE GLENBOIG alias GLENBOIG CUNNINGHAME.
"... The successive proprietors of Elizabeth Adam's half were John Buchanan, her son, and Andrew Buchanan, her grandson; the latter sold it to Peter Spiers in 1792, and he almost immediately disposed of it to Lieut.-Colonel John Kay. Margaret Adam's half was, in 1723, in possession of John Adam, who, by his wife, Margaret Kay, had at least three sons : Robert, Alexander, and Andrew,
and a daughter, Helen, born in 1 728.2 They seem to have sold their share of it to William Kay; and his son, Lieut.-Colonel John Kay, was the next proprietor, and Middle Glenboig became reunited in him. In 1795 the Colonel disponed the property in favour of his nephew, Alexander Ure, merchant in Glasgow;"
I cannot find evidence of John Kay being stationed in Blandford, Dorset, in the 1770s, but there was a military camp there at the time, so it is not unlikely that if he had a daughter she might have come to know the son of local gentleman James Knight snr.
It's distinctly possible that the Fintry, Bermondsey and Blandford John Kay's are either all the same person or three different ones. Nothing to link any of them together except the names.
-
I think the Scottish Colonel Kaye is just a coincidence, I can't find anything to link him to Sophia either.
If the only evidence for Sophia's father is in a biography of her son written by a third party, there might be errors and the military connection confused with her husband's militia service.
What do we know about Sophia? She was a spinster, about 26 when she married and living in Blandford. We assume she is from the same social class as her husband. The marriage record refers to her as a sojourner, which I think means she had only been a resident of Blandford for a short time. The marriage was by licence - is that significant? She signed her name on the record as Kay without an "e".
-
Just wondering if I might bump this up in case it gets noticed by people with fresh eyes. There is an enduring mystery here as far as I'm concerned, that I wish I could solve.
Is Sophia Kay who married in Blandford in 1777 and died in 1820 aged ~69, daughter of "Colonel John Kay" the same one as born in Bermondsey to "John Kay, Wharfinger of Mill Street" and Rosa Hill who he married a year earlier and who died a few years later. Names and dates fit but locations don't.
I researched what a Wharfinger was and it was a reasonably high-status, literate profession with overall responsibility for a dock. Not inconsistent with later signing up as an army officer.
LizzieL: you summarised pretty much all I know about Sophia before her marriage there.