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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: PaulThommo on Saturday 02 July 16 10:40 BST (UK)
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The 1851 census for my GG Grandparents Robert & Margery (nee Jefferson) Thompson lists the whole family, including 12 children and 2 of the children are called James. The first James (middle name Jefferson) was baptised on 15 November 1829 and the 2nd James birth year is stated as 1844. I have managed to find baptism records for 10 of the children, all baptised at St Hilda's church in South Shields except for the 2nd James and one other brother. I can understand a child being given the same Christian name if the first named one had passed away (although I find this rather morbid). Can it be that the family have taken in the 2 children I can't find baptism records for from another member of the family for whatever reason.
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Although I can't see the census, is it possible that the second James is the illegitimate son of one of their children?
Jamjar
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Although I can't see the census, is it possible that the second James is the illegitimate son of one of their children?
Jamjar
My thoughts too. Is there a civil record of the second James' birth?
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There's a James Thompson South Shields March Quarter 1843 10a 703
Also one in the June Quarter and one named James Allison Thompson in June 1884
Jamjar
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The 1851 census for my GG Grandparents Robert & Margery (nee Jefferson) Thompson lists the whole family, including 12 children and 2 of the children are called James. The first James (middle name Jefferson) was baptised on 15 November 1829 and the 2nd James birth year is stated as 1844. I have managed to find baptism records for 10 of the children, all baptised at St Hilda's church in South Shields except for the 2nd James and one other brother. I can understand a child being given the same Christian name if the first named one had passed away (although I find this rather morbid). Can it be that the family have taken in the 2 children I can't find baptism records for from another member of the family for whatever reason.
Yes the practice of naming children with the same name was not uncommon in the past when many children died shortly after birth or within the first few years of life.In some families it was important that a certain name was passed down in the family and in order that this occurred some named a subsequent child the same as one who had died or in other cases if they thought the child was frail.
Have you looked for that particular name in earlier generations of the family?
Cheers
Guy
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which of the other children's baptism is missing?
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Hi Jamjar,
Thanks for that thought, the eldest child of the family, Hannah, was born in 1826 so with James (2) being born in 1844 it is always a possibility, didn't think of that, however she does not appear with the family on the 1851 census. Further investigation required.
Although I can't see the census, is it possible that the second James is the illegitimate son of one of their children?
Jamjar
My thoughts too. Is there a civil record of the second James' birth?
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The child born 2 years earlier, William, I haven't found his birth/baptism yet, however the 3 children born after James (2) I have baptism records for.
which of the other children's baptism is missing?
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Hi Guy, Thanks for that, James Jefferson was the father of Margery (nee Jefferson) Thompson the mother, so a good reason for the name. It's the only James I have come across. The first son James was 21 at the 1851 census so if he was a sickly child he was managing to survive, I haven't followed him up in later life yet.
The 1851 census for my GG Grandparents Robert & Margery (nee Jefferson) Thompson lists the whole family, including 12 children and 2 of the children are called James. The first James (middle name Jefferson) was baptised on 15 November 1829 and the 2nd James birth year is stated as 1844. I have managed to find baptism records for 10 of the children, all baptised at St Hilda's church in South Shields except for the 2nd James and one other brother. I can understand a child being given the same Christian name if the first named one had passed away (although I find this rather morbid). Can it be that the family have taken in the 2 children I can't find baptism records for from another member of the family for whatever reason.
Yes the practice of naming children with the same name was not uncommon in the past when many children died shortly after birth or within the first few years of life.In some families it was important that a certain name was passed down in the family and in order that this occurred some named a subsequent child the same as one who had died or in other cases if they thought the child was frail.
Have you looked for that particular name in earlier generations of the family?
Cheers
Guy
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Hi Paul,
What is the name of the child transcribed as H E in 1851?
In 1861, William 19 yrs and Alfred 12 yrs are still with parents but the others are elsewhere.
Heywood
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Thanks Jamjar, I have just looked them up on Family Search, unfortunately all 3 do not list any parents so no further forward.
There's a James Thompson South Shields March Quarter 1843 10a 703
Also one in the June Quarter and one named James Allison Thompson in June 1884
Jamjar
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I was just going to ask if that was the correct family on the 51 and 61.
Could be Henry Edward Sept 1847 South Shields
Added: found Henry E on the '61 as a farm servant. Not with any family members.
Jamjar
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I can understand a child being given the same Christian name if the first named one had passed away (although I find this rather morbid). Can it be that the family have taken in the 2 children I can't find baptism records for from another member of the family for whatever reason.
Yes the practice of naming children with the same name was not uncommon in the past when many children died shortly after birth or within the first few years of life.In some families it was important that a certain name was passed down in the family and in order that this occurred some named a subsequent child the same as one who had died or in other cases if they thought the child was frail.
I have come across a few where 2 children were named the same.. In particular Roderick McIver Murray 1905 - 1907 & Roderick McIver Murray 1908.
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Hi Jamjar,
Thanks for that, yes it has got to be the right family, I have got Henry Edwards birth certificate which states his mother as Margery (nee Jefferson), the first James middle name is Jefferson and I also have their wedding transcript with them being married in 1824. Henry Edward was baptised on 24 October 1847 so a birth in September seems likely.
Yes it looks as though Henry E was a farm servant, same age and born in the same place, farmed out (no pun intended!!!) to earn some money.
I was just going to ask if that was the correct family on the 51 and 61.
Could be Henry Edward Sept 1847 South Shields
Added: found Henry E on the '61 as a farm servant. Not with any family members.
Jamjar
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I can't pick a George on the '61. The only suitable is with a widow with surname Thompson.
Do you have the married names for the daughters of the family?
Jamjar
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Do you have James in later censuses?
Durham records online show a baptism for James Jobling Thompson. You have to purchase details.
I see some records which continue the 'Jobling' name which leads to a marriage between James Thompson and Agnes Hodgson.
1871 5028/67/41
James is born abt 1844, South Shields
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???
That James is a ship's carpenter and have just found a James, ship's carpenter in 1861 with father Thomas :(
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Hi Jamjar,
No George has done a runner! To be honest I am concentrating on my immediate family (new to this), so Henry Edward, my G Grandfather is most important, then I have managed to go back 2 more generations, Robert and his father Thomas. 4 females in the family, Hannah b1826, Elizabeth b1832, Maria b1834, & Margery b1837, but no idea of married names (as yet).
Paul
I can't pick a George on the '61. The only suitable is with a widow with surname Thompson.
Do you have the married names for the daughters of the family?
Jamjar
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Hi Heywood,
There are 3 James Thompsons born 1843/4 including the 'Jobling' one, but none of them on the site I looked at name the parents which doesn't help!!! Never come across a Jobling in the family, but I have only got one generation further at the moment on the Thompson/Jefferson families.
Paul
Do you have James in later censuses?
Durham records online show a baptism for James Jobling Thompson. You have to purchase details.
I see some records which continue the 'Jobling' name which leads to a marriage between James Thompson and Agnes Hodgson.
1871 5028/67/41
James is born abt 1844, South Shields
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I should have checked further. 1851 James J and parents - Thomas and Mary A so he's not yours!
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I can understand a child being given the same Christian name if the first named one had passed away (although I find this rather morbid). Can it be that the family have taken in the 2 children I can't find baptism records for from another member of the family for whatever reason.
Yes the practice of naming children with the same name was not uncommon in the past when many children died shortly after birth or within the first few years of life.In some families it was important that a certain name was passed down in the family and in order that this occurred some named a subsequent child the same as one who had died or in other cases if they thought the child was frail.
I have come across a few where 2 children were named the same.. In particular Roderick McIver Murray 1905 - 1907 & Roderick McIver Murray 1908.
Yes but here we are talking about two children alive at the same time.
The written name of the younger child doesn't look the same as the older James to me.
Debra :)
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Good afternoon,
It is not unknown, although not common, for all sons to have the same first name. Followed by different second names to distinguish them.
The most famous is actually fairly modern, George Foreman has 5 sons, all called George.
John915
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1871 Census
Henry Edward Thompson age 24 no occupation listed
Jane Thompson Wife age 21
Jane E Thompson daughter age 1
Living at Queen St, South Shields
The 1891
Henry Thompson 43 Assurance Agent
Jane Thompson Wife 41
Jane E daughter Single 21 Confectioners Assistant
Thomas M son 15 Joiners Apprentice born in Gateshead, Durham
Henretta daughter 13 Scholar born Gateshead
William D son 10 Scholar born Gateshead
Living at Bright Terrace, Gateshead
1901
Henry 53 Insurance Agent
Jane 55
Jane daughter 31 Manageress of barbers shop
Marian daughter 37 Assurance agent
Ellan daughter Assistant confectioner shop
Living Balmoral Ave, Gateshead
1911
Henry Edward 63 Insurance Agent
Jane 61
Jane Ellen daughter 41 single
Maria daughter 37 single Insurance agent
William son 30 Insurance agent
Living at 255 Rectory Rd, Gateshead
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Alfred - Son of Robert and Margery
1871
Alfred 22
Jane wife 22
Ann B 2
Alffed E 0
Living Campbell St, Westoe SS
1891
Alfred 42 Salt Merchant
Jane 42
Ann B daughter single 22
William 18 son single Coachman general servant
John son 16 General Labourer
Alfred 0
Living Eldon St, Westoe SS
1901
Alfred 52 Cartman
Jane 52
Margaret daughter 21 General domestic servant
Alfred 10
Living at Dixon St, SS
1911
Alfred 63 Salt dealer
Jane 63
Margaret 31 Assisting in business
Alfred Thompson 20 (Boarder) Married Cartman
Lily Thompson 20 ( Boarder) married
Living at 120 Laygate st, SS
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I think this may be James the elder born 1830
1861
James 31 - Labourer
Ann wife 36
Elizabeth 9 born Morpeth
Robert 7 South Shields
Jane Ann 4 South Shields
Living at Westoe Village
1871
James 41
Ann 47
Elizabeth 19
Jane Ann 17
Living at Westoe Village
1881
James 51 Chemical factory labourer
Ann57 Chemical factory labourer
Elizabeth Fowler - grandaughter 7
Living at Wallis cottages SS
1891
James and Ann are lodgers with George Fowler (Widow) and children including the Elizabeth mentioned in 1881. James is a labourer.
Living at Westoe Village SS.
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I think this may be your Maria:
Married James Thompson 7 May 1853 From FreeBDM and St Hilda's register
1861 Census
James Thompson 28 Husbandman - Healey, Durham
Maria Thompson wife 27 - South Shields
George Robert Son 6 - Westoe
Living at Westoe Village
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A possible for Elizabeth: Marriage to John Moffitt Paul 9 August 1852 from FreeBDM and St Hilda's register.
1861 census
John Paul 33 Ballast trimmer - South Shields
Elizabeth Paul wife 28 - South Shields
Maria Daughter 8 - South Shields
Mary Ann Daughter 6 - South Shields
Mary Jane Daughter 4 - South Shields
Elizabeth Daughter 0 - South Shields
Living at 23 North St, Westoe
1871
As above except Mary Ann is now Margaret A and there is an additional Eliza 1. Still in North Street.
1881
John and Elizabeth
Eliza daughter 11
John 3
Margaret Ann McKie 25 daughter Charwoman - SS
Hannah McKie 6 Granddaughter - SS
Elizabeth McKie 4 Granddaughter - SS
Living at 2 Percy St, Westoe
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Jamjar, wow you have been busy, so appreciated. This part of the Thompson tree I do have, William D(obson) Thompson is my grandfather and I have visited the 1891/1901 & 1911 houses, all still standing, in fact the Balmoral Ave & 255 Rectory Rd are the same house they just changed the name of Balmoral to Rectory as it was a continuation of that road. In fact HE Thompson and his wife lived at 255 Rectory Road (they are upstairs/downstairs terrace houses), my father lived at 253 all his childhood. But the rest of the information is new to me as I haven't broadened out my tree as yet.
Every time you get somewhere it always brings up more questions, with Alfred Thompson his daughter Margaret is at home in the 1901 census, she's 21 but does not appear in the 1891 census when she would only be 11, somewhere else?
Also Elizabeth, 2 daughters called Mary (Mary Ann & Mary Jane), here we go again, however as you state Mary Ann becomes Margaret Ann in 1871 census. Me thinks she was always Margaret and whoever wrote up the 1861 census got confused with names.
Jamjar, once again I do appreciate your valuable help.
Paul
1871 Census
Henry Edward Thompson age 24 no occupation listed
Jane Thompson Wife age 21
Jane E Thompson daughter age 1
Living at Queen St, South Shields
The 1891
Henry Thompson 43 Assurance Agent
Jane Thompson Wife 41
Jane E daughter Single 21 Confectioners Assistant
Thomas M son 15 Joiners Apprentice born in Gateshead, Durham
Henretta daughter 13 Scholar born Gateshead
William D son 10 Scholar born Gateshead
Living at Bright Terrace, Gateshead
1901
Henry 53 Insurance Agent
Jane 55
Jane daughter 31 Manageress of barbers shop
Marian daughter 37 Assurance agent
Ellan daughter Assistant confectioner shop
Living Balmoral Ave, Gateshead
1911
Henry Edward 63 Insurance Agent
Jane 61
Jane Ellen daughter 41 single
Maria daughter 37 single Insurance agent
William son 30 Insurance agent
Living at 255 Rectory Rd, Gateshead
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I'm quite enjoying myself on this cold and sunless day. It's winter in Oz. I don't have a subscription to Find My Past so am taking advantage of their free census, access offer.
Yes, it is sure to be a mistake re Margaret's name. I didn't put the next census for them up as it is mighty confusing.
Do keep in mind that there is no guarantee that they are all the correct folk. The only way to confirm is by way of certificates purchases.
Jamjar
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Thanks Jamjar,
I too am spending a cold and mainly sunless day in Perth Oz!!!!! I have had my wife giving me work to do all day as I depart for the UK and Europe for a holiday tomorrow, hopefully a bit warmer there.
I have a pay as you go with Find my Past which was great as it lasted a year and I have periods when I look at my family history and for months leave it alone (summer is a good example), however my credits ran our recently and on renewing I found that they have changed valid for a year to valid for 90 days, so with going away I haven't renewed it. I have been using family search.org and have obtained quite a bit of info there.
Yes obtaining BMD certificates gets a bit expensive, at least the cost is the same to post them to Oz as it is to the UK, a bonus!!!
Paul
I'm quite enjoying myself on this cold and sunless day. It's winter in Oz. I don't have a subscription to Find My Past so am taking advantage of their free census, access offer.
Yes, it is sure to be a mistake re Margaret's name. I didn't put the next census for them up as it is mighty confusing.
Do keep in mind that there is no guarantee that they are all the correct folk. The only way to confirm is by way of certificates purchases.
Jamjar
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I'm in Central West NSW. I thought it was always warm over your side of the world. ;)
Not sure the UK will be that much warmer that WA.
All branches of my tree got to the dead end stage a few years back. I miss the seek and search aspect of it. I'm currently on Uni hols so have this month to dabble on this site.
J.
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Here is the very odd one:
1891 has John and Elizabeth Paul as per other census'.
Then: Frederick Paul grandson aged 8.
Edward Surtees son-in-law aged 29 general labourer
Margaret Ann GRINTERS daughter 29
Elizabeth GRINTERS granddaughter 2
I viewed the page and GRINTERS isn't on it, so it's a mistake on the transcription. However, the age 29 is there and Margaret certainly is older than 29. I checked if there was a marriage between Edward Surtees and Margaret Ann and there is. Also, on a later census Edward and Mary have Frederick Paul as there son.
So the question to be asked is, who is the daughter Margaret McKie and where are the McKie children. If Mr McKie had died wouldn't Margaret remarry as McKie and not Paul?
Jamjar
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Here is the very odd one:
1891 has John and Elizabeth Paul as per other census'.
Then: Frederick Paul grandson aged 8.
Edward Surtees son-in-law aged 29 general labourer
Margaret Ann GRINTERS daughter 29
Elizabeth GRINTERS granddaughter 2
I viewed the page and GRINTERS isn't on it, so it's a mistake on the transcription. However, the age 29 is there and Margaret certainly is older than 29. I checked if there was a marriage between Edward Surtees and Margaret Ann and there is. Also, on a later census Edward and Mary have Frederick Paul as there son.
So the question to be asked is, who is the daughter Margaret McKie and where are the McKie children. If Mr McKie had died wouldn't Margaret remarry as McKie and not Paul?
Jamjar
Hi Jamjar, apologies for the delay in replying to thank you for your detective work, I went overseas that evening and did not see your last correspondence until my return recently. Having gone as far back with direct descendants without entering into the 'possibilities' league I am now starting on Great Aunts/Uncles and working my way backwards so your help will be stored until I get to them. Bloody cold weather here in Perth for this time of year, hope your area of NSW is warmer. Thanks again for all your assistance.
Paul
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Hi Paul
It certainly has been a long time. I hope you enjoyed your time overseas.
We have had 2 warm days this Spring, but more cold is on it's way. The weather has been dreadful this year, with our village flooding 4 times thanks to nearly 700ml of rain.
Jamjar