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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: jim1 on Tuesday 21 June 16 15:23 BST (UK)
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The above lady married in 1913 B'ham to William Arkinstall & states she's a 21 yo spinster & lady dentist. (no Lee witnesses)
Her father is listed as Alfred Lee deceased a stone mason.
Her death cert. gives a birth of Oct. 1st. 1891.
On the Electoral Rolls she always gives her name as Phyllis M C Arkinstall.
Can't find her anywhere on planet earth.
Where did she come from ?
She's the Grandmother of a friend of mine.
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hello .is she on 1911 census in brum some where should have her birth place or on 1901. will have a look chrimes13
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What was Phyllis' address at the time of the marriage, and who were the witnesses?
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Address at marriage was Bk. 160 Barr St. B'ham the same address as her husband's.
Witnesses were Walter Jones & Mary Ogden.
Can't find her on any census.
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1939 free index gives birth year as 1885
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1939 free index gives birth year as 1885
Well that opens it up a bit.
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Possible birth, maybe correct family?
Births Dec 1885 - Only one that possibly fits with year & birth Qtr from age given 39 reg
Lee Phillis Dudley 6c 132
Family are in Dudley, Court Stafford Street, in 1891 with Phyliss Lee age 5 mother Maria age 46 states married, no husband present. Number of children all family b Dudley, one called Alfred. 1881 in Dudley, Court Stafford Street, Maria age 39 states herself a widow, wonder if Phyllis is illegitimate?
1901 Stafford Street, Maria Lee states married, no husband present age 50 with son Samuel age 19, and boarder Samuel Brockhouse age 60 who was with family in 1891. Widow in last census. Only states married with Samuel B present, who is also married, likely death 1907.
1871 Dudley, Maria Lees, age 28, states widow with 4 children all b Dudley.
1861 Maria Lee, age 18, married, no husband present with Brookes family (parents)
1860 possible marriage Maria Brookes to Henry Lee
1851 Maria Brookes with same Family
Cannot find Phyllis in last census.
Cas
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With everything found so far, possible entry for Phillys in 1901 working away from home https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XS7M-M4P
Monica
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1901 looks the same Phyllis but if her father is Henry that would rule her out.
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I've been wondering about the name Cedone and found this birth reg. :
Cedone Warner O-D 1891 3b 160 Wellingborough
She is on the 1901 census, living in Finedon , as Codone Warner with her mother Sarah Jane, born Wednesbury 1851, and siblings .
(RG13 1444 84 10)
I cannot see her in 1911 and cannot find a death or marriage for her.
Tracing the family back to 1891 they are in Finedon with father Alfred Warner b Finedon 1851 a boot finisher.( RG12 1214 85 9). Alfred Warner was absent from the 1901 census and there is a possible mention of him in the Northants Mercury 17 June 1904 :
Arthur Warner , Finedon , charged on April 27 with deserting his wife and family and on June 11 with using obscene language.
Also in the same paper 2 Dec 1892 : Alfred Warner , Finedon, charged with threatening his wife. In 1893 he was sent to prison and then bound over for assaulting his wife.
I think Sarah Jane Warner died 1906 O-D Wellingborough 3b 71.
Is it possible that Cedone moved away to escape her background and changed her name ? There is nothing to connect her with Phyllis other than the name and the year of her birth.
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1939 free index gives birth year as 1885
1901 looks the same Phyllis but if her father is Henry that would rule her out.
Would not be the first to fib on marriage cert, with unlikely knowledge of father, through death or absconded, or to cover illegitamacy.
Also large difference in occ, and birth year on marriage, (would need money and years training to be a lady dentist) and the info supplied in 39 reg.
Maybe she decided to add a few names as liked them. Or birth year was recorded as 21 but was really 27 and read as 21. Death records are only as good as informant.
Other than that maybe born abroad? Her husbands details all fit, with age, pob, census & military record.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NXRL-5X6
Info on last stated occ http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=14750.0
Just my thoughts, with trying to help...
Cas
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Possible birth, maybe correct family?
Births Dec 1885 - Only one that possibly fits with year & birth Qtr from age given 39 reg
Lee Phillis Dudley 6c 132
Family are in Dudley, Court Stafford Street, in 1891 with Phyliss Lee age 5 mother Maria age 46 states married, no husband present. Number of children all family b Dudley, one called Alfred. 1881 in Dudley, Court Stafford Street, Maria age 39 states herself a widow, wonder if Phyllis is illegitimate?
School registers for Park School (Girls'), Dudley, show a Phyllis Lee born 9 Oct 1885, address 36 Stafford Street, father Samuel ??? Date of Admission: 31 Mar 1896, Date of leaving: 11 Mar 1898. Previous school was Wolverhampton St Girls.
I note that there is a Samuel Brockhouse lodging with the family in 1891 & 1901, could he be the Samuel referred to in the school register?
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I think he was...also the father of Samuel, she states married when he is living there but he is also married, check 1861 in area, seems a lady's man, that needs a roof...is with another widow
Cas
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I've been wondering about the name Cedone
I wondered about Cedone. I did have a look at some with that name.
Other than that maybe born abroad?
I did look on the Irish & USA census & passenger lists with no luck.
I've also come to the conclusion she's been inventive about a lot of things.
The Dudley Phyllis is looking a good candidate.
There's some good information there about her.
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Thanks everyone for the help. There's some new candidates to consider but I might have to wait for the 1921 census & hope she's a bit more truthful.
In the meantime I'll take a closer look at Dudley Phyllis.
Thanks.
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Thought I'd give an update.
The 1939 register gives a birth date of Oct. 1st. 1885.
Consistent with the death cert. except it's 6 years earlier & consistent with the school admission book except it's 8 days earlier.
Has to be her.. doesn't it.
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Jim, I maybe wrong, but being doing this a while..my FH nose says yes, but.... Does the 1921 give birthplace, info? Back in the day did they know or be worried about the date? DOB...Cannot even say obtaining birth cert would prove any..
Cas
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My nose is twitching as well.
Birthplace will be on the 1921 census as it was on the others. Whether it asks for a DOB I can't say.
It's anybody's guess at the moment who Phyllis' father was. It could be Henry Lee, Samuel Brockhouse or someone called Alfred.
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My nose is twitching as well.
Birthplace will be on the 1921 census as it was on the others. Whether it asks for a DOB I can't say.
You can see the 1921 Schedule at http://www.rootschat.com/links/01hv4/
Stan
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Henry Lee seemed to have died, or be well outta pic, by time Phyllis born, maybe, I would guess Alfred and Arthur were brothers, loved and look up too in family..guess you need 1921 to hopefully give clues
Cas
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You can see the 1921 Schedule at http://www.rootschat.com/links/01hv4/
Knew you'd have the answer Stan.
It asks for age in years & months so it's possible to work out a reasonable DOB.
Henry Lee seemed to have died
I can't find an appropriate death for him.
It's possible he went, came back & then disappeared.
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Hi all.
I know this is a little late. Phyliss may cedone lee was born on 1st october 1885.
She marries william arkinstall in 1913.
She had 9 children as far as i can remember. Phyliss laura may in 1918, Christine 24 feb 1915 edith, joan, all of who i knew. I believe she had a boy called george or charilie who fell in to a tin bath with boiling water in when he was just 5. He died of his injuries.
Phyliss lived until 3rd dec 1882. I was 19 when she died. She had a strong birmingham accent and always wore an apron. Her eyes were blue and she had long platted hair. Although her eighsight failed her, she never had glasses.
She was my great grandmother by phyliss laura may.
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Just a little more info on phyliss may cedone.
I was told that she came to birmingham from northampton.
Her last address was shcool lane in shard end, birmingham.
She has also lived at 2 vale, also 139 villa street,
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I believe she had a boy called george or charilie who fell in to a tin bath with boiling water in when he was just 5. He died of his injuries.
How sad.
Likely I think to be George Thomas Arkinstall, mother’s maiden name Lee, birth registration Jun qtr 1922 Birmingham, died aged 3, Sep qtr 1925 Birmingham North.
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I wonder, would you know phylisses parents full names at all? Im just starting my family tree and calnt seem to get any information on them, apart from the surname lee?
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Phyliss birth year is 1891 not 1895. Sorry, my error. She was 91 when she died.
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I did a tree for a friend who is an Arkinstall. Her father was William b. 1917. Phyllis L.M was his younger sister.
I couldn't get any further with mother Phyllis so concentrated on the Arkinstall's which faired a lot better.
I'm not sure if mother Phyllis was quite telling the truth about her father.
If memory serves she said on her marriage she was a lady dentist & her father was called Alfred.
Thanks to those on this thread she appears to be the daughter of Maria Lee nee Brookes. On the census Maria is described variously as being married widowed married again & widowed again but always had the name Lee. She was never with any husband on any of them. They lived in Dudley.
Although this was for a friend it might be worth another visit now you've peaked my interest.
This from an earlier post:
School registers for Park School (Girls'), Dudley, show a Phyllis Lee born 9 Oct 1885, address 36 Stafford Street, father Samuel Date of Admission: 31 Mar 1896, Date of leaving: 11 Mar 1898. Previous school was Wolverhampton St Girls.
I still can't be sure I'm looking for a Phyllis born 1885 or 1891.
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Simrose has tood us that Phyllis was said in the family to have come to Birmingham from Northampton, which perhaps makes Cedone Warner born 1891 in Finedon, Northamptonshire (found upthread) worth another look as a rival candidate.
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Yes that one's a possibility.
On the 1939 register Phyllis now Arkinstall gives a dob of Oct. 1885 which is consistent with the school record for Phyllis Brookes who became Phyllis Lee.
Simrose also remembers her having a broad B'ham accent which is unlikely for someone from Northants but the Black Country & B'ham accents are very similar.
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Thats interesting. Where did she go to school?
It was my understanding that she went to birmingham from northants at a young age, but familys can often get history mixed up.
I have photographs of her if you would like a copy?
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I'm sure my friend would love some photos of her Grandmother.
She went to Park Girls School Dudley 1896-98 previously at Wolverhampton St. School for girls.
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The birth year is definately 1892. She was 91 when she died. The day before my 19th birthday.
I cant imagine there would be 2 phyliss may cedone lee’s in adjacent areas born in october, so im assuming that she is one person.
I wonder if you would be happy to tell me the name of the friend you are acting for?
She must be related to me if phyliss was her grandmother?
I cant send a picture on hee, but if i could have an email, id be happy to send a couple. I also have one of her husband william arkinstall if she would like that too?
Regards
Julie
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I'll send you a pm with an address & my friend's name. As she's still living I can't post it on here.
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Ok great. I can send the photographs then.😊