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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Angus (Forfarshire) => Topic started by: McTeacher on Monday 13 June 16 18:05 BST (UK)
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Hello,
I've been stuck for years on this.
I descend from Alexander McKenzie/McKinzie (dob and dod unknown) and Ann Greig (m Dec 25, 1802 in Guthrie - states "in Couthils"??? on the 1822 birth certif of his daughter). No mention of parents or other family members. He was a Cattle Dealer.
Ann (b:1782 Inverkeilor, Angus d:1864 Lunanhead, Angus). I have a 1841 census entry (Guthrie) for Ann Greig (age 58) with and an Alexander McKenzie (age 93 - not born in that county - suspect he's her father-in-law) and an Alexander Gibb (age 14 - "servant" but fairly certain it was their grandson). I also have 1851 census showing her living as a widow with her daughter Ann and son-in-law (Alexander Laing), 1861 census showing her living alone in Lunan Head and a death certif (1864 - no info to help w/ this).
Ann was buried in "McKenzie ground Compartment E83, Lair #2, Forfar Cemetery"
Questions:
1) I'm stuck at Alexander McKenzie. Any suggestions of what to do next?
2) how do I look up if Alexander is buried w/ Ann?
3) Any useful new genealogical resources for the Angus area?
Not sure if this offers any clues (different religion?) but birth records for all children (Alexander b1803 (note: less than 5 months after marriage), Isoblel b1804, John b1807, William b1811, Charles b1812 (my line), Robert b1819, Ann b1822 - Guthrie Parish Register) oddly were entered in the parish registry on the same day of Ann's (last child's) birth. At the bottom of the page was written " The twelve preceding entries extracted from the Register in the custody of the Register in terms of the Acts 17 &18 ...".
Thank you for your time with this and happy hunting :D
Scott (in Montreal)
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat. You might want to have a gander at this thread:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=690269.0
Jen
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Hi Scott
Older thread on the same family
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714620.9
See also
http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/ANGUS/2006-06/1150840637
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/MCKENZIE/2002-06/1023392446
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Thanks Jennywren001,
I read that post last year and replied at the time to offer my assistance. The info didn't provide any clues to the info I seek. Interesting read though.
Thanks Forarian as well,
Two of those were my posts and I read/contacted Catherine many years ago regarding her post (very informative.
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Thanks Jennywren001,
I read that post last year and replied at the time to offer my assistance. The info didn't provide any clues to the info I seek. Interesting read though.
Sorry, I missed that - had I seen it I would have taken you up on the offer.
Mind it does seem a wee bit odd that any births showing for McK*nzie in Guthrie between 1750 and 1820 appear only to involve men called Alexander both of whom were allegedly cattle dealers. First with a Mary Gibb - last birth with Mary was in 1790 then with a Ann Greig - first birth with Ann in 1803. How have you managed to establish this is not one and the same man?
Jen
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Hi Jen,
Thanks for your response.
That's exactly what I thought - strange. I can't seem to establish if this is the same guy or if it is, is this the 93 yr old living w/ Ann in the 1841 census (would have fathered his daughter Ann in his early 70s though). The Alexander in the 1841 census is stated to be born outside the county (her husband is dead by 1851 census (can't find dod or any info - hoping to get info from her burial location "McKenzie Ground, Compartment E83, Lair #2, Forfar Cemetary) according to classification of his wife Ann living w/ her daughter and son-in-law)).
The Alexander and Ann were both stated to be "in this parish" on wedding register. I'm don't think that means "of" this parish but mention it just in case. In the baptism register for several of Alexander and Ann's children he is stated as "in Couthils".
I notice that children's names weren't repeated in either family.
McKenzie - Gibb Connection:
You are correct about the birth of a James in 1788 (states "in Milfield" in Guthrie OPR) and a Jean in 1790 (states "in ??[couldn't make out this part]head" in Guthrie OPR) to an Alexander McKenzie and a Mary Gibb (married Guthrie 1788 "both of this parish".
As well my Alexander and his wife Ann Greig had a daughter Isobel who married an Alexander Gibb (1822) (I believe it is their son Alexander who was living with Alexander McKenzie and Ann Greig when the 1841 Census was taken). Of note there is an Isabella McKenzie who married an Alexander Gibb in Forfar in 1856 (have not determined a connection).
Hope this helps. I will try to see if I can establish if my Alexander was "of" Guthrie or Angus.
Scott
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In the baptism register for several of Alexander and Ann's children he is stated as "in Couthils". I don't know what that means (a place I assume?)
Yes, Colthills or Couthills is a place, and the implication of 'in Couthills' is that Alexander was a tenant, not the owner, of the place.
Have you lost the long correspondence you and I had last year about exactly this point? I wrote to you almost exactly a year ago
This particular Colthill or Couthills was plainly in the parish of Guthrie, because the baptism of Alexander in 1803 was in Guthrie and the 1841 census record was also there.
See http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=56.6501&lon=-2.6951&layers=5
The enumeration district includes Hil(l)to(w)n, Hillside, Mains of Guthrie, Guthrie Castle, Kirkto(w)n, Newton, Mil(l/n)field, Millto(w)n, Heughhead, Glasterlaw, West Heughhead, East Colt Hills, Colthills, Cotton of Eastertown, Drumhead, Loanhead, Rockhead, Midloan, Loanmouth, Longland, Dubtown, Turin Muir, Pickerton, Bents, and Broadfaud. Listing these in the order in the 1841 census describes a rough circle around the east end of the parish, starting and finishing a kilometre or so north-west
of the kirk.
However several of these are not on the mid-Victorian map, including Colthills. On the map, East Mains and Woodside lie between Glasterlaw and Drumhead Wood, but they are not listed in the 1841 census. There are also a couple of unnamed cottages close to Heughhead.
I speculate that the unnamed cottages are West Heughhead, and that East Mains is East Colt Hills and Woodside is Colthills, or something like that. Or maybe the closest cottage to Heughhead
is West Heughhead, the next one East Colt Hills, East Mains being Colthills and Woodside being Drumhead. The only way to be sure is if there is a plan of Guthrie estates somewhere that names all the individual farms.
There are references to a similarly named place in the parish of Inverkeilor, but this is a red herring because by definition anywhere in the parish of Guthrie is not in the parish of Inverkeilor, and vice versa.
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Thank you Forfarian for the detailed information. I remember our correspondence and that "Couthils" was in Guthrie as part of an estate but added the question mark beside "Couthils" just in case my recollection was foggy.
Further McKenzie - Gibb connection:
I noticed where Alex and Ann's son-in-law Alexander Gibb was born in Milnfield, Guthrie the same place listed for Alexander and Mary's first born James. As an aside, their daughter Jean was born in Haughhead, Guthrie.
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Hi Scott,
Beginning to feel like I'm on the magic roundabout...
Can I take it as a given that you have seen the original 1841 census and that there is no ambiguity with regard to Alexander McKenzie's age.
The 'Cattle Dealer' information that would be coming from the death or marriage certificates of the children? If so do any of them deviate from 'Cattle Dealer' as per their father's occupation?
The Elizabeth McKenzie who married George Ritchie in Guthrie in 1823 looks (from the 1851 census at least) to have been born in Kingoldrum so does not appear to fit in with this family which is too bad as she was born around 1794...
I can find only two McKenzie/Gibb births in Guthrie that of James 1788 (prior to marriage of his parents) and Jean in 1790. On SP I can only find two deaths in Angus of McKenzies with mother's maiden name Gibb. That of a Jean (she married a James Carrie) and that of a James - ages at death tie in with those two births as do place of birth from the census. If there's a 'spare' Alexander I can't find him...
I've not followed through on the James McKenzie who married Ann Esplen in Guthrie in 1828 (Banns also called in Kinnell). He shouldn't be the 1788 born James as he was supposed to be single!
Jen
EDIT:Have ruled out the James McKenzie who married Ann Esplen - he was from Kirrie...
OK, cat now among pigeons...1851 census, born Guthrie 1815/16, I have two Charles McKenzies...one living Shell Croft, Forfar the other living Knowehead, Inverkeilor - BOTHER!
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Can I take it as a given that you have seen the original 1841 census and that there is no ambiguity with regard to Alexander McKenzie's age.
Freecen also show Alexander Snr as being 93. Address is given as East Colt Hills.
Monica
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Hi Monica,
FindMyPast also 93 so probably spot on...both of the Charles McKenzies born Guthrie live past 1855 so I'm hoping Scott has viewed both death certificates.
Jen
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Sorry, "Have ruled out the James McKenzie who married Ann Esplen - he was from Kirrie..." no I've not as on the 1871 census his man now lists Guthrie as his place of birth! By 1871 he has moved to Cupar in Fife and become a potato merchant. From the census he looks to have been born around 1807. Now if this man turns out to be the son of Alexander and Ann Greig that would point to the 93 year old being the father-in-law rather than the husband as it's very unlikely he'd name two sons James given one had already reached adulthood.
On the other hand at the bottom of the OPR for the birth of Ann McKinzie in 1822 someone has written (or rather added at a later date)...'For the rest of Alex McKinzie's family by Ann Greig see next page'. When I first read that I thought it implied he'd had another family by some else but maybe not.
Jen
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Hi Jen,
Thank you again for your help. It's much appreciated.
So I have a John born to Alex and Ann in 1807 and complete records of all children's baptisms (in order Alexander (1803), Isobel (1804), John (1807), William (1811), Charles (1812), Robert (1819) and Ann (1822), )so as certain as I can be that no James here. The "next" page was a baptism list of all their children (I have a copy). I was told it was either done for civil registration purposes or because of the church to which they they might've been members.
I wouldn't rule out that the Alex of Alex and Mary being the father of Alex of Alex and Ann.
I guess you are beginning to see why I have been so bogged down over the years on this main branch. When the "weeds" get too thick, I switch to another branch for sanity :-)
The multiple Charles McKenzies from Guthrie area was an interesting curve too. I don't think I ever found mine (married to Jane Tyrie) for that year. He seemed to live much of his adult life on Dundee Loan in Forfar (our known family home).
Have a good day - sunny here in Montreal.
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Thunderstorms so I'm stuck indoors. Don't think I've been much help at all really as I'm not sure we're any further forward. James McKenzie (the potato merchant who claims to have been born Guthrie) was son to a James McKenzie (shoemaker) and an Ann Kinnear he died in 1887 aged 81. Spookily, he died in Dundee on Gellatly Street home to my Fullertons :o Well, at least he doesn't add a second James into the mix!
Jen
PS have you read the Statistical Accounts for Guthrie I think it must have been one of the least populated parishes in NE Scotland.
It's got a bonny wee church built to a Thomas Telford design in 1826. I'm about to do exactly as the stained glass window depicts although with less ambitious outcomes - winter cabbage, chard and celtuce.
http://www.scottishchurches.org.uk/sites/site/id/7856/name/Guthrie+Parish+Church+Guthrie+Tayside
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My wish list
- to have a look at the cemetery records for Ann's plot for an Alex. I know her plot info but would like to see who else is there. I bought some info from Deceasedonline concerning Charles McKenzie burial info (Newmonthill, A/278/1 - Dec 28, 1900 - dod Dec 25th) and it looks like I might've found another child. A toddler "Cath" McKenzie was also buried in A/278 - Dec 9, 1853. But 278 might be a big area for an extended family. Will keep hunting. :-)
- to establish if they followed an offshoot to the main religion and that's the reason for baptisms being all on one OPR page after Ann's baptism in 1822.(I've been told it might've been a money issue and a record cleanup issue). I saw this interesting chart. http://website.lineone.net/~davghalgh/churchhistory.html.
I know in the mid 1800s, close branches were members of the Free Church.
Btw, lovely interior to the church (except the colour of the carpet :-) )
Hope everyone has a nice day. Sunny/warm again here in MTL.
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My wish list
- to have a look at the cemetery records for Ann's plot for an Alex. I know her plot info but would like to see who else is there.
The burials in Forfar Cemetery are on www.deceasedonline.com. However in the case of Newmonthill Cemetery, Forfar aka Forfar Cemetery I do not know how to search using the lair number rather than the name of the person buried. If I were you I would contact Angus Council, tell them that you have obtained information from www.deceasedonline,com and ask them who else is in the same lair or block of lairs.
Before you do so, however, consider that Forfar Cemetery opened about 1850. So anyone who died before then will not be buried there. Specifically, someone aged 93 and living in Guthrie in 1841, and not found in the 1851 census, is not likely to be in Newmonthill. He will almost certainly be in the parish kirkyard in Guthrie. I do not know whether the Guthrie parish register records burials or not. If not, and there is nothing in the mortcloth listings in the Guthrie Kirk Session records, then you will have to accept that no record of the death of Alexander McKenzie before 1855 exists.
(I have checked the book of pre-1855 monumental inscriptions and the only recorded McKenzie is Elizabeth McKenzie, the wife of George Ritchie. She died in 1866 aged 72, so there will be a death certificate if you want to see who her parents were.)
- to establish if they followed an offshoot to the main religion and that's the reason for baptisms being all on one OPR page after Ann's baptism in 1822.
The usual reason for a family being recorded batch-wise in the register of baptisms is that the parents neglected to have the baptisms recorded at the time. Occasionally the parents omitted to have the children baptised at all until the minister caught up with them and got them done as a job lot. The original document usually makes this clear.
The Statistical Account of Scotland (1792) says of the parish of Guthrie, "The people .... a few excepted, all belong to the Established Church." The New Statistical Account (1834-5) says, "With the exception of twelve persons, the whole population of the parish belongs to the Established Church". It also says that the parochial registers "extend back to the beginning of the seventeenth century; but there are many gaps in the records, and nothing like a continued narrative of parochial matter from the above date to the present. The portions that do exist, especially those towards the beginning, are very explicit and full, and, in many cases, very quaint and interesting".
I know in the mid 1800s, close branches were members of the Free Church.
As the Free Church was not founded until May 1843, it isn't relevant to anything before 1843, except that if your people went with the Free Church, they were almost certainly members of the Church of Scotland ('established church') before the Disruption in 1843.
Hope everyone has a nice day. Sunny/warm again here in MTL.
Lucky you. It's been raining steadily here since Tuesday and shows no sign of drying up.
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At the bottom of the OPR containing the list of McKenzie births (I can see no reference to any baptisms of the McKenzie children except for Ann born 1822) there is a mention made of some 'Acts' but I'm struggling to make out what is says. The records on this page (12 in total) have been extracted from the Register.
Similar to the McKenzies, there's a couple at the top of the page who had a child baptised in 1820 which is recorded as such then there's a list of their other children but no indication that they were ever baptised - they have even included one child who was registered outside of Guthrie in Rescobie.
Jen
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Acts 17 and 18 Vict(oria) Cap 80 and 23 and 24 Vict(oria) cap 85. This means that they were the 80th act passed by parliament in the parliamentary session that started in the 17th year of the reign of Queen Victoria and ended in the 18th year of her reign, and the 85th act passed in the session that started in the 23rd and ended in the 24th year of her reign.
The first is probably the Act of Parliament that established statutory civil registration, and also authorised the Registrar General for Scotland to collect all the surviving registers of the Church of Scotland when statutory civil registration started.
As an aside, I have noted that most parish registers are split into different volumes, and that in particular every parish seems to have started a new register in 1820.
So this is what I think happened.
Alexander and Ann had several children between 1803 and 1819, and got them baptised, but didn't bother, for whatever reason, to have the baptisms recorded in the parish register. Maybe they didn't want to pay the fee, or maybe they forgot, or maybe they didn't see the need, or any of 101 reasons we will never know.
When it came to baptising Ann in 1822, maybe there was a new minister, or maybe a new Session Clerk, and one or other of them asked why the older children's baptisms weren't in the old register. So at that point, all the births were listed in the new register, but no-one could remember the exact dates of all the baptisms so they just listed the dates of birth.
At a later date, when preparing the registers to be sent off to the Registrar General, the Session Clerk realised that all the earlier baptisms should have been in the old book, so he copied the information out of the new, post-1820 book into the old, pre-1819 book.
I've just realised that the signature reads W P Dundas, Registrar General. So the correction, i.e. copying the pre-1819 entries into the pre-1819 book, must have been done by the staff of the Registrar General in or after 1861, which was the 24th year of the reign of Queen Victoria.
Does that sound reasonable?
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PS I just checked and 23 and 24 Vict cap 85 is an Act amending 17 and 18 Vict Cap 80 by making provision for the listing of omitted events in the Registers of Neglected Entries. QED.
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Sorry Forfarian I need more help in understanding what I'm looking at...
GROS 291/0000200005 is a list of Baptisms from July 1818 to January 1822 this contains Ann's baptism of 1822 along with a note about seeing the next page for the rest of the family. I took the 'next' page to be the one with the list of children from 1803 which also includes Ann's baptism.
GROS 291/00 0010 0157 is the list of the McKenzie children (including a repeat of Ann's details)
GROS 291/00 0010 0156 (I have not looked at this) appears to be a record of Robert born April 12 1819. I don't get the numbering as if the 'next' page is the one ending in 0157 where does the one ending 0156 fit in?
Jen
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Sorry Forfarian I need more help in understanding what I'm looking at...
As the only thing I can see is the extract posted on this thread, I don't know what you can see.
However if I look at the strings of numbers you have posted, this is what I think
GROS indicates General Register Office for Scotland, obviously.
291 is the number indicating the parish of Guthrie
We then have Volume 1 page 156 and Volume 1 page 157
Then finally Volume 2 page 5.
The extract posted reads
1819 April 12 Robert was born
The twelve preceding Entries are Extracted from the Register in the custody of the Registrar in terms of the Acts 17 & 18 Vict Cap 80 and 23 & 24 Vict Cap 85. One word and six figures deleted before signature. W P Dundas, Registrar General.
It sounds as if Vol 1 Page 157 precedes Vol 1 Page 156. I have no idea why this would be, but I have tried to think up a procedure that might account for it. It makes no difference to the content of the registers.
If I find myself in the Angus Archives or Forfar Public Library with time on my hands and if I remember about it I might indulge my curiosity by taking a look at the microfilm(s) of the Guthrie parish registers to see if they shed any light on the page order. However I doubt that it would actually help to move Scott's brick wall, which I fear is more in the nature of a well-engineered solid stone dyke and not about to be easily, if at all, broken down.
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Thanks Forfarian,
I'm now looking at the OPR for James McKenzie, my 4th GGF (reputed!) born in 1788
291/0000100129 and his sister Jean born in 1790 291/0000100130. Not many births in Guthrie so the two pages cover the three years. However, there's another listing for Jean 291/0000100125 (lower number) but it must have been made after the other record because it has her baptism on the 9th of November while the other makes it clear she was born on the 9th and baptised on the 10th.
There are also some other anomalies like David Gibb and his spouse Mary Wyllie had a natural daughter. Well the couple did marry late but the child was born in wedlock so why write natural?
You can tell I'm stuck indoors due to thunderstorms!
Jen
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Yes, all very curious.
Did you know that Jean Whyte, wife of Alexander McKenzie born 1803, was my second cousin 3 times removed, so you and I are connected, but not related, through the McKenzies as well as related via Jolly - Thom - Davidson - Wyllie?
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Yes, all very curious.
Did you know that Jean Whyte, wife of Alexander McKenzie born 1803, was my second cousin 3 times removed, so you and I are connected, but not related, through the McKenzies as well as related via Jolly - Thom - Davidson - Wyllie?
No I did not know that - curious indeed. To be honest I've not done much work on this line since discovering Janet Stott McKenzie died in the Brechin poorhouse leaving all those children behind and before this thread appeared I had no idea Alexander McKenzie was still alive in 1841 age 93.
Also curious is the family living next door to old Alexander - a Charles Jolly married to a Mary Hendry now that's a bit of a coincidence...
Jen
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Jen,
You wrote "before this thread appeared I had no idea Alexander McKenzie was still alive in 1841 age 93" (just saw how to get the "Quote from" at the top of a page but can't seem to do it in "modify" mode).
Do you know who this Alexander McKenzie is?
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Well, I'm not 100% sure but I think he might be the father of my James McKenzie born in 1788 to an Alexander McKenzie (cattle dealer) and Mary Gibb. James died in 1859 and on his death certificate those two are named as his parents. On the 1851 census James McKenzie's birthplace is down as Guthrie. If it's the correct Alexander he's my 5th great grandfather.
Jen
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Jen,
Do you have a death date for Mary Gibb? With that we might get a clue as to whether your Alex is the Father-in-law of my Ann Grieg or the husband. You Alex stopped having children in the early 1790s and mine started in 1802 (Guthrie). No repeat of names w/ children but doubting my Alex was in his 70 when he had his daughter Ann in 1822 (but who knows). Any death info on your Alex? My Ann is buried in Newmonthill in 1864.
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Scott,
I'm afraid like you I'm limited to online sources. The OPR deaths for Guthrie cover the period 1716 - 1794 but I'm afraid I've not found a death for Mary Gibb at SP.
I have read through all the MIs found at the Abel site but no luck - I did however find Ann Wilson's sister Euphemia and her husband David Ogilvie who farmed at Broadfauld :).
http://www.ancestor.abel.co.uk/Angus/Guthrie.html
Couple of thoughts...if you read through the 1841 Guthrie census returns it would appear that almost without exception the women are listed under their maiden names. I know this was not uncommon in Scotland but I've not come across a parish where all the women appear to be listed as such. You can't therefore infer Ann was a widow who had reverted to using her maiden name.
When James McKenzie was born in 1788 Alexander and Mary were yet to marry therefore if they'd had a son called Alexander he would have had to been born out of wedlock to Mary (or to another woman?) prior to that date to be old enough to marry in 1802. If this was the case there might be something in the Kirk sessions IF he was born in Guthrie?
There are a couple of trees on Ancestry that have Ann Greig's husband Alexander born in abt 1780 and dying in 1864 or 1866 but nothing to substantiate these claims....
Jen
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Hello,
I've been stuck for years on this.
I descend from Alexander McKenzie/McKinzie (dob and dod unknown) and Ann Greig (m Dec 25, 1802 in Guthrie - states "in Couthils"??? on the 1822 birth certif of his daughter). No mention of parents or other family members. He was a Cattle Dealer.
Ann (b:1782 Inverkeilor, Angus d:1864 Lunanhead, Angus). I have a 1841 census entry (Guthrie) for Ann Greig (age 58) with and an Alexander McKenzie (age 93 - not born in that county - suspect he's her father-in-law)
Questions:
1) I'm stuck at Alexander McKenzie. Any suggestions of what to do next?
Scott (in Montreal)
Have you looked for a connection that could link a "foreign born" Cattle Dealer to Inverkeilor where Ann was born?
The description of Inverkeilor is that it's sparsely populated and it sends cattle to Glasgow and then onwards to London. Maybe Alex M'kenzie was born in or near Glasgow, Lanarkshire?
http://www.oldroadsofscotland.com/stataccforfar.htm#inverkeilor
I haven't read the Angus/Forfarshire 1792 Statistical Account but that might throw up another clue.
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Hi - Been away for a while but getting back at it. Thanks for the suggestion on "out of county". I think that's a logical place to start. Always enjoy reading old records anyway.
Have a great day - Storm coming here in Montreal.
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I was just reviewing 1841 Guthrie census and noticed the Jolly family (Charles Sr, Charles Jr and his wife Mary ?) listed just above my Alexander McKenzie and Ann Greig. Thought this might be of interest to you if you hadn't seen it.
:-)
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Aye, I've seen that one but never pursued old Charles. The McKenzie line is my father's mother's side...the Jolly's appear to be Kincardineshire although as just about everyone on the planet knows I'm stuck in 1811 when William Jolly married Catherine Sherret in St Cyrus :)
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Sorry, I saw the Jolly name so close to McKenzie/McKinzie and thought...wow.
FYI, a distant cousin is helping me fill in your James McKenzie's (son of Alex and Mary Gibb) sister Jean/Jane, her seeming husband James Carrey/Carey/Carrie, daughters Ann and Agnes (so far) and Ann's husband "Raitt" and children. Hoping to fill in and build around a bit to connect your family to mine.
Looking at hand written copy of 1841 Guthrie census, it has Alexander McKenzie (living w/ 58 yr old Ann Greig and 14 yr old grandson Alexander Gibb is there) age 93 as "Agriculture" for profession. This might be because of his age but Alexander McKenzie, husband to Ann Greig is usually listed as a Cattle Dealer so wondering if the above is his father (or Agriculture might include livestock - here in Canada, it usually means just farming).
:-)
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Sorry, I saw the Jolly name so close to McKenzie/McKinzie and thought...wow.
FYI, a distant cousin is helping me fill in your James McKenzie's (son of Alex and Mary Gibb) sister Jean/Jane, her seeming husband James Carrey/Carey/Carrie, daughters Ann and Agnes (so far) and Ann's husband "Raitt" and children. Hoping to fill in and build around a bit to connect your family to mine.
Looking at hand written copy of 1841 Guthrie census, it has Alexander McKenzie (living w/ 58 yr old Ann Greig and 14 yr old grandson Alexander Gibb is there) age 93 as "Agriculture" for profession. This might be because of his age but Alexander McKenzie, husband to Ann Greig is usually listed as a Cattle Dealer so wondering if the above is his father (or Agriculture might include livestock - here in Canada, it usually means just farming).
:-)
Sorry to interrupt but do you know who James parents were as I noticed their children were baptised in St Vigeans as my 4x gt grandmother was a Carey born in Arbroath and married a Jolly (no conection to Jens Jollys so far)
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I assume by "James" you mean James Carey? If so, I don't have his parents because I just started searching this line.
You mention "4 children", are you referring to James Carey and Jean/Jane McKenzie? If so I only have 3 (Ann, Agnes and Isabella). Who is the other?
Thanks