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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: vinpip on Thursday 09 June 16 10:47 BST (UK)
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Hello again :)
I was hoping to get a bit of insight into my latest conundrum. I've had so much fabulous help and pointers before I'm sure someone out there will be able to help again :)
It's a bit complicated (isn't it always?!) so I'll try and be as clear and concise as possible.
Thomas Clowes born April 1859 Onecote, Staffs (Leek reg.)
Parents - Elisha and Emma. (I have all their info)
I have baptism and census info for Thomas up to 1871 when he was 11 living with parents in Cheddleton,Staffs.
Last year I was convinced I had found him in the 1881 census in London with wife Charlotte and had found his marriage. Also a link to his job at the railway. I have lots of info about the wife & her child before 1881 but not after.
Previous thread March last year (not all that much info) http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=717057.msg5607874#msg5607874 but now I'm not so sure!
I held off sending for the marriage cert (I know I'm going to have to get it eventually ;) or wait until Rutland PR copies come online.) But as I've come back to this problem I've come across some conflicting info :-
1882 Military Service Attestation http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fwo97%2f2518%2f40189
This is definitely him as Elisha & Emma are stated next of kin. The problem is that he says he hasn't resided out of his father's house for 3 years and states that he isn't married.
This doc does say he was discharged 1888 after a long list of missing parade, escaping from barracks, having a very bad attitude and for being "incorrigible and worthless"
Now I can't find anything solid about him after this. Nor for his wife and adopted child. I've found possibilities of him being in asylums and criminal cases but they don't really hold up.
What I'd like to know : your thoughts on the situation,
another option for Thomas on 1881 census,
where he & his possible family are after 1881
I know the marriage cert will confirm if it's him or not but it wont further where he was after 1881 or where his possible family were. The military document has put me off getting it just yet so I'd like just to be sure I've not missed anything before I send for it.
I hope I've made some sort of sense and I will clarify anything that I can.
Thanks so much, fingers crossed :)
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UPDATE
I did the sensible thing & ordered the marriage cert :- Father Eli Clowes - steward
His father was Elisha Clowes and he was a land agent to the Sneyd family.
Do you agree I have the right marriage?
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Going off the subject slightly...
This marriage is on Lancashire OnLine Parish Clerks Register...
Marriage: 4 Aug 1883 St James, Broughton, Lancs.
Frederick Clowes - 21, Clerk, Bachelor, 81 Grosvenor Street
Lilian Dale - 19, Spinster, 84 Grosvenor Street
Groom's Father: Elisha Clowes, Land Agent
Bride's Father: Andrew Dale, Gardener
Witness: John Robert Morrey; Fanny Dale
Married by Banns by: C. E. Stewart, Rector
Register: Marriages 1879 - 1895, Page 48, Entry 95
Source: Original Parish Register
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Hi hepburn :) Thanks
Yes Frederick, that's his brother and my gg grandfather . It seems a lot of the siblings married away.
Do you think I have the right marriage for Thomas?
I've jut checked some of my research for Elisha and I've found him under Land Steward in the Midland trade directories. So the profession ties up.
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So know I have
Thomas Clowes born April 1859 Onecote (Leek reg)
1861 Census Onecote, Staffs
1871 Census Cheddleton Staffs
1880 2nd Dec Marries Charlotte Tewson (Widow) at Manton Rutland
Working as a train porter at Manton until transfer to St Pancras London
1881 Census St James Clerkenwell London with wife Charlotte Tewson & daughter Emma (previous marriage) porter on railway
1882 882 Military Service Attestation http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fwo97%2f2518%2f40189
This is definitely him as Elisha & Emma are stated next of kin. The problem is that he says he hasn't resided out of his father's house for 3 years and states that he isn't married.
This doc does say he was discharged 1888 after a long list of missing parade, escaping from barracks, having a very bad attitude and for being "incorrigible and worthless"
So what happened to Charlotte and Emma?
To make him travel up to Berwick upon Tweed to join the army and state he wasn't married?
I have more details for Charlotte & Emma but not sure to if to bombard with more info?
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A possible for Emma is that she reverted to Tewson and married Harry Salisbury at Christ Church, Bacup in 1904. Possibly showing as the adopted daughter of the Nuttall family in Bacup in 1901 :-[
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:) thanks Jomot that's a great new lead. I'll look into that!
As far as I can tell Emma was born Q3 1877 Oakham Rutland and her father is John Tewson.
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That all looks quite possible Jomot!
The adoptive daughter and the marriage looks good but I can't find any links with this Nuttall family before 1901
Any ideas for 1891?
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Sorry, cant find a thing for 1891.
I haven't had much chance to look into it but I noticed that a Jane Tewson married either John Nuttall or Thomas Moore in Jan-Mar 1881, Nottingham, and in the 1881 census there is a John & Jane Nuttall in the Haslingden area. It could be nothing but I thought I'd mention it.
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:) that's great Jomot - any link might help. Thanks :)
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A possible for Emma is that she reverted to Tewson and married Harry Salisbury at Christ Church, Bacup in 1904. Possibly showing as the adopted daughter of the Nuttall family in Bacup in 1901 :-[
Thanks Jomot :) still going with this one - have got the marriage cert now and it looks like it is her - right age and father.
Still can't find her in 1891 - can anyone else please?
Added - Emma Tewson born 1877 Wing Rutland ,parents Charlotte & John Tewson
1881 In Clerkenwell as Emma Clowes
1901 in Bacup, Lancs adopted daughter of William & Mary Nuttall
1904 married Harry Salisbury Bacup Lancs
1911 in Bacup, Lancs
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Hi,
Sorry if this adds more questions than answers, but have you seen this birth?
John Willie CLOWES Dec Q 1881 Oakham 7a 298
mmn. WOODCOCK
I can't see another CLOWES/WOODCOCK marriage that could be his parents.
Then he disappears ::)
This would put Charlotte back in Rutland just after the 1881 census.
I know this is not much help but maybe it's a clue to where they go in 1891 :-\
Regards,
Daisy
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Have you read my mind Daisypetal :) I just found that late last night!!! I hadn't found the maiden name so thank you so much! That pretty much confirms it's the right birth - yay I might save a tenner on the cert lol
I've also found a death for Charlotte Clews and John William Clews Sept 1882 Stockport Workhouse. I have the Charlotte one and occupation was housekeeper at Cheadle, where Thomas Clowes has family at that time.
My theory so far is
1881 April - Clerkenwell
1881 Dec - Rutland
1882 -Cheadle Cheshire
1882 May ish Stockport Workhouse
1882 Sep Death of Charlotte & John Willie (William)
No sign of Emma in 1891 and I'm still working on a link with the adopted Nuttall family
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Just in case you haven't found it yet, did you know that the GRO have now got a search facility that shows maiden names for births and ages at death. It's not perfect yet, for instance under the "Age at Death (in years)" column it doesn't seem to register months so says 14 when it should be 14 months. There are also people missing from their search that can be found using FindMyPast or Ancestry etc. but they say they are updating the index weekly so it will get there eventually :)
I couldn't find Charlotte or John William's death so I used the report a problem form to let them know, I hope you don't mind.
I think you have to register with the site to use the search but then it's free to check before you send for a cert.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp
Where is Emma in 1891 and what happened to Thomas?......I love a puzzle but it's driving me crazy ;D
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No I didn't know that :) sounds very helpful indeed! I shall be looking into that thank you.
The possible deaths are registered under Clews in Stockport (workhouse) so that might be the problem. I have the one for Charlotte but not for John William.
I can't find Emma anywhere in 1891 :(
My theory for Thomas is that after he is discharged from the army 1888, he makes his way to Wales for the 1891,1901, 1911 and works as a farm servant/ cattleman. I've checked and double checked for any other possible Thomas Clowes this could be and am quietly confident that he is my guy.
Probable death is May 1936 Temple Buildings, Lampeter, Wales, previously the workhousebut I don't have the cert as I felt it wouldn't prove anything more to me but the ages match up exactly to his birth date.
So I'm missing Emma in 1891 and the link to the adoptive family to tie things up. Any ideas where next?
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I might have had a breakthrough!
1891 census, Reddish Lancs
class:RG12, piece:2795, folio:136, page:34, GSU roll:6097905
Emily Tiwson (the writing imo is easily recognisable as Tewson)
Age 13, Nurse domestic servant, n.K. where born
What does anyone think? Is it a possibliity? Opinions, comments warmly welcomed :)
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Reddish is on the outskirts of Stockport, and not far from Cheadle -- so this Emma is certainly in the right area!
But where has she been since her mother died several years earlier?
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Thanks Marmalady :) the location is close isn't it?! Emily very similar to Emma too.
That's the question isn't it?! She could well have stayed in Stockport Workhouse, where I now believe her mother and half brother died. Unfortunately from what I can see there are no admission and discharge records left, having being destroyed in WW2. Thomas Clowes is off up in Berwick on Tweed enrolling in the army by Dec 1882.
There is family of Thomas - Sarah Moss (born Sarah Clowes 1850 Onecote, Staffs) in Cheadle in 1891 & 1881
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I think that the Thomas you have found looks very likely :)
I have no idea how you could prove that Thomas is the right one, you could try looking through these to see if there are any mentions of him,
http://newspapers.library.wales/home
or contact Archive Wales as they seem to have some Lampeter workhouse records,
https://archiveswales.llgc.org.uk/anw/get_collection.php?inst_id=31&coll_id=1930&expand=
Emily seems to be a very good fit, I can't see any Emily T?wson that could be her :)
Well found... she was well hidden :)
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I've just realised that Thomas CLOWES joined the army after his wife Charlotte and baby son John William died. The enlistment papers could show him as single if the question was asked as "are you married" and he just said no, not mentioning that he was a Widower, or perhaps being Widower didn't need recording as there were no dependants.
I wonder if the family went to the workhouse because of illness as it probably had the only medical treatment/beds available to them. So did Thomas go in with them and survive, was he away working when they went into the workhouse and died or had he deserted them already? His army records show his habits as irregular and drunken, I wonder, was that his character before his family's death or because of it?
It doesn't look like he took care of his stepdaughter Emma TEWSON, but again more questions, couldn't he or didn't he want to?
Could Poor laws help with the workhouse records?
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:D thank so much Daisypetal :) it's great to have someone to agree with a theory.
I have tried to look at Welsh newspapers with no success but will again to see if anything new is available. I think the workhouse records fall under the 100 year rule but also worth another check.
It was a hard slog to find! I'm not such an experienced researcher but I'm definitely tenacious lol!
Yes, Thomas joined up in the Dec of 1882, Charlotte & John Willie died in the September. I'm hoping it was their death that was the reason for his service record. Off the top of my head his railway work conduct was of a good standard.
I guess that Charlotte & John were in workhouse due to illness. Her death cert implied illness for 3 months & also 42 days mentioned (must scan it & get help with some deciphering) her occupation was 'housekeeper of Cheadle' so implies coming from a job?
How do I research poor laws?
Thanks again for your interest & help Daisypetal, it's much appreciated x
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I've only had experience looking at poor laws when I was in a record office so I don't know much about researching them. I found these links which might help,
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/poverty-poor-laws/
https://familysearch.org/wiki/en/Cheshire_Poor_Law_Unions
but it does look like they might all have been lost in ww2 like those you have already read about :(
Sorry I can't be of more help here.
Daisy
P.S. Any luck finding out about the NUTTALL family in 1901?
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Thanks Daisypetal :) I'll have a look at those links tomorrow.
Tried the Welsh newspapers again with no luck but did phone the record office re Lampeter and a lovely lady said she would look into what records were available and get back to me. Fingers crossed that might come to something to confirm Thomas in Wales.
Have done loads of research on the Nuttals without really coming to anything apart from them having connections to areas near to Cheadle and Stockport area pre 1901.
I'm just about to follow a hunch / coincidence - 1891 census for Emma was servant with a father in law called Wilde to the head of the household. There were also a Wilde family next to Sarah Moss, Thomas's sister in Cheadle in 1881. Might be nothing but worth a look. I'll let you know if it comes to anything.