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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: AliMacD on Wednesday 08 June 16 14:51 BST (UK)
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Hi all
I am trying to establish if a person killed in action at Dunkirk during WW2 would have had a death certificate issued to his family. I have found plenty of memorial info for him but no death certificate.
Any help would be gratefully received.
Regards
Ali
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The index to the registers of deaths in the armed forces can be found on Findmypast following which a basic death certificate can be ordered from the GRO. This is in a military format but serves for legal purposes. While relatives of those who died overseas would have been notified of deaths it seems unlikely that they would be given such a certificate. Deaths in the UK would have resulted in the issue of the more familiar standard death certificate.
Imber
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hi ali
if you care to post his name and all relevant info we may be able to help find the data you need .
regards
trevor
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Hi Ali,
I had a Great Uncle killed in Italy in April, 1945. There is not a death certificate as such. There is only a military style list which includes other casualties. This gives his Army number, name, Age,
Country of Birth, Date and place of death and cause of death.
Hope this helps answer your question.
Dorrie
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Findmypast have
GRO WAR DEATHS ARMY OTHER RANKS (1939 to 1948)
GRO WAR DEATHS R.A.F.ALL RANKS (1939 to 1948)
Naval deaths are under Deaths at sea.
Jebber
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Thanks for all the replies. His name is Harold Robert Luke who was killed at Dunkirk in 1940. He was a Colour Sergeant in the Queen's Own Royal West Kent Regiment, army number 6344485. I have found various memorial info but no death certificate??
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You can use this data to get a copy from the GRO
Regiment or unit Royal West Kent Regiment
Record source GRO War Death Army Other Ranks (1939 to 1948)
Volume 6 Page 323 Year 1940
You may have an extra 4 in his soldier's number according to indexes
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He wasn't a Colour Sergeant, he has the rare 'ish privilege of being a PSM. Warrant Officer Class III.
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I can also tell you he would have been killed at Nieppe Forest. I did some research on what happened there 7 years ago and discovered that the 5 RWKs were fighting a SS unit. Some of the British soldiers that were captured were subsequently executed in the forest. I'm not allowed to post any pictures from files on here but you can see some of the info in the link below. If you access it via a mobile you are more likely to see the images, many were lost when the forum changed servers.
http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/18410-british-soldiers-murdered-at-forêt-de-nieppe-nieppe-forest-1940/page-4
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Thanks again for all the info. I have looked through the attachment but can't open any of the links to documents mentioned. I was aware he was listed as a WOIII, but as an ex-military man myself was unfamiliar with such a rank? Can you tell me what PSM stands for?
I saw that Harold Robert Luke was not one of the six shot in the woods. I guess he was killed in the battle preceding them staying in the barn where the SS found them as he died 27th May 1940.
Regards
Ali
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Thanks again for all the info. I have looked through the attachment but can't open any of the links to documents mentioned. I was aware he was listed as a WOIII, but as an ex-military man myself was unfamiliar with such a rank? Can you tell me what PSM stands for?
I saw that Harold Robert Luke was not one of the six shot in the woods. I guess he was killed in the battle preceding them staying in the barn where the SS found them as he died 27th May 1940.
Regards
Ali
Just worked out what PSM means, Platoon Sergeant Major.
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This is the reference to order the death certificate.
British nationals armed forces deaths 1796-2005
Name HAROLD R LUKE
1940 Service number 634485 Rank W.O.III
Royal West Kent Regiment
GRO War Death Army Other Ranks (1939 to 1948)
Volume 6 Page 323
Jebber
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Platoon Sergeant Major was a rank introduced around 1939 and only last to 1941/2 IIRC. The purpose of the rank was to promote senior and experienced NCO's to a rank where they could command a Platoon or equivalent in battle, thus replacing the need for an officer. It was a only a short term measure to help reduce the need for junior officers due to a shortfall of officers at the start of the war. The badge they wore is still used today in the British Army- The Sergeant Major's crown surrounded by a wreath, the same used by RQMS's today.
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Thanks Jebber and Drew for your information, very helpful thanks.
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Depending on how far you want your research to go on this chap I would consider obtaining a copy of the battalions war diary and the regiments Missing Men file at the National Archives in London. Whilst nothing is 100% the circumstances of his death may be recorded by a witness in the Missing Men file. Drop me a message if you'd like the reference numbers for both files.
Cheers
Andy
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Thanks again Andy. Will check TNA. :)
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Hi
My Uncle died in Italy on 12oct 1945 and is buried in Padua war cemetery how do I find out what he died of ?? The family story is he fell out of a wagon !!! As this was after the war ended I am curious to know what happened. His name was William Herbert Hewitt aged 27 he was in The Pioneer Corps army number 7667701.
Any help would be great.
Many thanks Fran,...
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Two ideas to consider:
You could apply for a copy of his service record; cost £30 from MOD or send for a copy of his death certificate, which might give details of an accident.
How to apply for service record:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=651361.0
Details for death certificate:
GRO War Death Army Other Ranks (1939-1948), volume 11, page 39, line 30; year 1945.
William H Hewitt, 7667701.
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Thank you for your very quick reply do I order the death certificate from General Registry Office in Southport ??
Regards Fran ...
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Yes, I think that you now have to register but it is easy.....and free!
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Perhaps just be aware that many death certificates for WW2 contain next to no detail (e.g. 'killed in action', 'died from accidental injuries'), and the place of death may be recorded in very general terms (e.g. 'Western Europe').
The service records, though more costly, could be much more informative.
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Once again many thanks for the replies .. Regards Fran
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Sorry, could not find this on the GRO site. Could someone please tell me where to find this entry and where I can order the certificate please?
This is the reference to order the death certificate.
British nationals armed forces deaths 1796-2005
Name HAROLD R LUKE
1940 Service number 634485 Rank W.O.III
Royal West Kent Regiment
GRO War Death Army Other Ranks (1939 to 1948)
Volume 6 Page 323
Jebber
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You won't find the reference on the GRO website, they only list deaths up to 1917, but you use the reference I gave you to order on the website.
Click on Place an order, then follow the procedure using the reference you have, it will be a paper certificate received through the post, the cost £9.25, you can't download a pdf version.
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Many thanks Jebber.
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You need to order a Deaths Overseas certificate.
Once you have entered yes to the GRO reference number being known and the year, go to the next screen where you enter his name as it appears in the index then go to the GRO reference box marked with a red * and enter GRO War deaths Army other ranks and the volume and page number followed by his service number and regiment. The text box has space for loads of characters.
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Sorry looking for District and Quarter to order please?
You won't find the reference on the GRO website, they only list deaths up to 1917, but you use the reference I gave you to order on the website.
Click on Place an order, then follow the procedure using the reference you have, it will be a paper certificate received through the post, the cost £9.25, you can't download a pdf version.
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Sorry looking for District and Quarter to order please?
Don't worry, found the details!
You won't find the reference on the GRO website, they only list deaths up to 1917, but you use the reference I gave you to order on the website.
Click on Place an order, then follow the procedure using the reference you have, it will be a paper certificate received through the post, the cost £9.25, you can't download a pdf version.
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Follow the instructions Dawnsh has given you only need to fill in the boxes marked with a red asterisk, there is no District or Quarter, just the name, volume and page number
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Perhaps just be aware that many death certificates for WW2 contain next to no detail (e.g. 'killed in action', 'died from accidental injuries'), and the place of death may be recorded in very general terms (e.g. 'Western Europe').
The service records, though more costly, could be much more informative.
Hello
An RAF Service Record we purchased relating to an Airman killed in an Air Crash at West End, Southampton only says:-
"MBK" [Missing Believed Killed] and date.
"Killed in Action" and same date.
Corner stamped "NE" [Non Effective] also used when sick or injured. Also probably used when leaving the Service.
The £30 was a waste of money, because his Units, his Awards etc., were all recorded on his 4 page Certificate of Discharge, sent to his next of kin (My Grandma) in 1940.
Anyone visiting The National Archives (TNA), Kew to see original documents and files will need to prove who they are and where they live and take this with them, to get a 'Readers Ticket' or renew it. See the 'Visit Us' & 'Readers Ticket' section of their website.
The Cause of Death registered by his Squadron was "Due to War Operations", so Death Certificates often don't say what happened.
Mark
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First time poster here..........I know about the death certificate requirements to get a Army Service record and also know I need to get access to GRO War Death Army Other Ranks (1939 to 1948) to be able to order such certificate. I've ordered direct from GRO for many other family BMD certificates but I don't have FindMyPast access to get at these records. Can someone point me in the right direction of perhaps being able to view on microfiche somewhere (in the West Midlands) or perhaps even get a Vol/Page number for me?
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Welcome blackpoollad. You don't need to provide a death certificate if he died serving. They already know that from their own records.
Imber
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But if you do want a day trip to look at the GRO fiche, the complete set can be found at the Library of Birmingham
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/most_customers_want_to_know.asp#FamilyHistory1
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Welcome blackpoollad. You don't need to provide a death certificate if he died serving. They already know that from their own records.
Imber
Thanks - I didn't appreciate that - just that I got told by a local historian that the army are particularly sticklers for the "rule".
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But if you do want a day trip to look at the GRO fiche, the complete set can be found at the Library of Birmingham
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/most_customers_want_to_know.asp#FamilyHistory1
I visit Birmingham city centre regularly so that sounds like my best option. Thanks for t he help.
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Hello
You can sometimes access subscription site/s at your local Library for an hour / Archive, with a valid Library Membership, or Archive Readers Ticket?
Especially useful if you pay for one at home, but one image is on the other.
Mark
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Many thanks to all who replied; I've now managed to get the right detail from the GRO Army Deaths list and have now ordered the requisite death certificate. Then it'll be off to get the service record.