RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Tracey Asteroid on Sunday 05 June 16 12:59 BST (UK)
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I'll start with the easy sentence: My husband's ggg grandparents are Sophia COE and John EVANS.
This is what I "think" I know right now:
Charles COE (b.1803) was married (no date) to Hannah GRIFFIN (b.1791) in England. They had a daughter Hannah Henrietta COE in 1829. In 1829 Charles was convicted of larceny and sentenced to life. He was transported to Australia arriving in 1830 on the "Katherine Stewart Foster".
http://www.convictrecords.com.au/convicts/coe/charles/72941
A publicly available family tree lists Charles' parents as John COE (1773-1837) and Mary PARSONS (1772-1862) though I have no corroborating evidence for this. (A post on Roots Web suggests his parents were Charles and Jane).
Now Elizabeth STANLEY (b.1777) was married (no date) to Daniel MCGUINNESS (1781-1817), and convicted and transported in 1817 two months after Daniel's death. She arrived in Australia on the "Friendship" in 1818, with her son Thomas MCGUINNESS (b. 1810) and daughter Elizabeth MCGUINNESS (b. 1813).
http://www.convictrecords.com.au/convicts/macginnis/elizabeth/68761
Elizabeth MCGUINESS (nee STANLEY) died in 1832 in Sydney. Her daughter Elizabeth MCGUINESS married Richard PEARCE the same year. Elizabeth and Richard had 4 or 5 children
Four listed in this blog: http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/battlerbob/f57.html#f1040
Elizabeth PEARCE (1832-1849)
Richard PERACE (1834-1886)
Mary Ann PEARCE (1836-1914)
Robert PEARCE (1838-1841)
A fifth child mentioned here: http://australianroyalty.net.au/individual.php?pid=I31208&ged=purnellmccord.ged
Isabell PEARCE (1833-unknown)
It has been suggested that the death of her husband Richard PEARCE in 1839, quickly followed by the death of her youngest child in 1941, led Elizabeth PEARCE (nee MCGUINESS) to flee Sydney.
Around this same time, Charles COE was being released from Bathurst Goal (more info about his ups and downs from
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/NSW-ORANGEBATHURST/2007-03/1175264862 )
and somehow the two met and became involved around 1843/44 in Berrima NSW.
Together they had at least seven children (listed on this blog http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/battlerbob/f25.html#f1041 )
Jane COE (1844-1932) married Thomas EVANS
Charles COE (1847-1928) no spouse
Sophia COE (1848-1897) married John EVANS (brother of Jane's husband) then Elijah OSBORNE
Thomas COE (1851-1933) no spouse
Elizabeth COE (1856-1946) married John COVENTRY
George COE (1861 twin -1938) no spouse
Rachael COE (1861 twin -1935) no spouse
But a post on Roots Web (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/NSW-ORANGEBATHURST/2007-03/1175264862) lists:
Jane COE (1844-1932) married Thomas EVANS
Charles COE (1847-1928) married Elizabeth PARKER (nee HAMBLIN)
Sophia COE (1848-1897) married John EVANS (brother of Jane's husband) then Elijah OSBORNE
Thomas COE (1851-1933) married Sissy DARGAN
George COE (1854-unknown) married Eliza COOPER
Elizabeth COE (1856-1946) married John COVENTRY
No Twin
Rachael COE (1861 -1935) married Thomas BOWMAN
To confuse the issue, there was apparently another Charles COE/Elizabeth couple having children around this same time (from this post: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/NSW-ORANGEBATHURST/2007-03/1175221979)
Eliza A COE b. 1854 Bourke
Clara COE b. 1855 Gulgong
Terese COE b.1856 Mudgee
William J COE b.1857 Mudgee
Robert David COE b.1859 Mudgee
Elizabeth COE b. 1860 Bathurst
Frederick COE b. 1863 Bathurst
Clara COE b. 1864 Bathurst
Which may (or may not) match up with this family (http://nis.wikidot.com/coe) as the offspring of Charles COE (http://www.convictrecords.com.au/convicts/coe/charles/90048) and Elizabeth PHILLIPS:
Charles COE (1853-1928) married Elizabeth PARKER
Clara COE (1855-1856)
Theressa COE (1856-1846) no spouse
William COE (1857-1887)
Robert COE (1858-unknown)
Elizabeth COE (1861-1946) married James SOORLY then Nicholas BUGDEN
Frederick COE (1862-1863)
Clara COE (1864-1864)
Hannah COE (1865-1865)
To confuse things more, it appears that both Charles COE’s died in the Goulburn area, and both Charles COE’s left a wife and one child behind in England, so they did not marry their Australian partners.
I am too tired to try and figure this out right now, but hopefully if we keep picking at it, the truth will become clearer.
Sorry for making you read all that.
I have mentioned the EVANS family before here: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=747737.msg5952163#msg5952163
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My question is, of course, who belongs to who and where?
I think I need to do two separate family trees!
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I have absolutely No idea why you are even reading all that claptrap that everyone else has done, which by the way is incorrect, at least as to the parents and date of birth of Sophia COE.
There is one listing for the birth of a Sophia COE in NSW indexes 1840-1860 and that is in 1852? The parents are John and Frances? Ref # 718/1852 V1852718 52. According to the index they had only one child? There is NO marriage listed on the index for this couple.
There are two marriages SAME YEAR for a Sophia COE 1869 at DUBBO NSW to John EVANS Ref # 2202/1869 also one in Newcastle NSW for a Second Sophia COE in 1869 to a William MOWLL? ref 2985/1869. The Indexes only show a Marriage for a Jane COE at Milton in 1886 to a Kerry HAPGOOD ref # 7398/1886. I cannot see any other ???
I have found it is best to start with what you know and then go back, not start with with what someone else thinks they know and go forward ::)
you probably need to buy a cert or two or a transcription same to either rule in or rule out certain characters.
There are definitely TWO Charles COE's as one was having a child in Mudgee 1856 while another was having on in Goulburn 1856 Both have a partner Elizabeth the mother's of the children, not unusual.
Neil
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Thanks Neill.
So far I have been working with the theory that Jane had the name PEARCE on her birth certificate, since that was the married name her mother was still using.
There was a birth in 1844 for Jane PEARCE (father unknown) reg # 1788/1844 V18441788 28
I suppose it is actually possible that Charles was not her father, if this even is the right Jane.
I have found nothing for Sophia's birth, though a Sophia COE definitely lived and died. Her marriage to John EVANS in Dubbo in 1869 has her named as Sophia COE. Her second marriage to Elijah OSBORNE in Coonamble in 1890 has her listed as Sophia EVANS. Her death certificate lists her as Sophia OSBORNE in Coonamble in 1897, parents Elizabeth and Charles...which only means that the person reporting her death knew Sophia's parents as Elizabeth and Charles.
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I agree with Neil, don't try to work from ancestors to the more recent generations. You need to work back to the ancestors. When the family members are NSW based, then your research can focus on the holdings of:
a) NSW State Records Office
b) NSW State Library
c) NSW Births, Deaths, Marriages
Charles COE, per the ship Katherine Stewart Forbes of 1830 was tried at Essex Quarter Sessions, and received a Life sentence in April 1829 for Picking Pockets. His Conditional Pardon shows his native place as Camberwell, and his trade or calling as Groom & Hawker. It also shows he was born in 1803, stood 5 ft 4 inches, with dark ruddy complexion, black hark, dark hazel eyes. He had a large scar or cut in the shape of a Y on the back of head.
He received two tickets of leave. Here is the NSW State Records online index that supports that.
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/indexes-online/indexes-to-convict-records/indexes-to-convict-records
29 May, 1839 (reel 933)
39/0932, Allowed to remain in the district of Bathurst. However, there was a colonial charge, Bathurst Quarter Sessions, August 1839, Forgery, but by 1845 (see next item) the ToL was restored.
1845 (reel 955)
(21 DSecember 1844) 45/0259 Allowed to remain in the district of Goulburn
1850
50/197 He received a Conditional Pardon (reel 793)
The recommendation for that CP is also at NSW SR (reel 798)
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/research-topics/convicts/convicts
Are you aware of any connection to Paul COE
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/coe-paul-joseph-9776
JM
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Hi there,
Thanks Neill.
So far I have been working with the theory that Jane had the name PEARCE on her birth certificate, since that was the married name her mother was still using.
There was a birth in 1844 for Jane PEARCE (father unknown) reg # 1788/1844 V18441788 28
I suppose it is actually possible that Charles was not her father, if this even is the right Jane.
I have found nothing for Sophia's birth, though a Sophia COE definitely lived and died. Her marriage to John EVANS in Dubbo in 1869 has her named as Sophia COE. Her second marriage to Elijah OSBORNE in Coonamble in 1890 has her listed as Sophia EVANS. Her death certificate lists her as Sophia OSBORNE in Coonamble in 1897, parents Elizabeth and Charles...which only means that the person reporting her death knew Sophia's parents as Elizabeth and Charles.
Do you have that actual record for Jane, or is this just the information gleaned from the online index? You see, it is not a birth record, but a record of a baptism. You will not find a birth certificate, as birth certificates commenced in NSW in March 1856.
So the Early Church Record you find indexed at NSW BDM online index is NOT indexing a birth certificate. The index may be referring to a baptism for a lass named Jane who may have been an adult, or a child, or she may have been a baby. Yes, it is likely it is for a baby, but it is NOT confirmed until you have accessed the document, not just the index. I can tell you that Volume 28 is for Church of England baptisms. http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/short-guide-4/volumes-1-123-1/volumes-1-123
It may well be for the following lass:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTHN-B8K
and
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTDB-QQ8
(Jane born 26 June 1844, baptised in the Appin Parish, 21 July 1844), daughter of Elizabeth PEARCE, father's name NOT indexed)
May I please mention that the actual parish register may well have a margin note of the (putative) father's name.
Do you have NSW BDM marriage for Sophia in 1869 and the 1890 one, are you sure from those two documents that the bride is the same person each time? I would expect both certificates to have blanks in several sections. NSW BDM's own webpage notes that their holdings are not complete for some marriages 1856-1895 (ish). But the 1869 document should give you the denomination, the witness names, and other vital clues to help your own research determine the details recorded on the parish register for that marriage. Here is a thread I did up to help RChatters overcome those elusive blanks.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html
JM
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Re Sophia COE, most people don't know where or when they were born, they were too young to know. ;D They find out off their parents, or a sibling if they knew. If she was an only child and she didn't know her parents for any of many reasons then she was up the creek without the paddle so to speak. She didn't know her age, or where or when born, this did happen back then and someone else, SKS as referred to on here, took over the rearing, hopefully. This could have been another family member IE Charles COE. She perpetuated this on any marriage cert if ever one for the right Sophia born 1852 not 1848. This is not to say that Charles COE was not having children to one or more "partners" he could also have fathered two children in one year, for that much many, many more!! Please don't try and do all the tree in one sitting. Only do the direct lines first, just add siblings in pencil and add them later when you KNOW you have the line correct.
Most family trees have accidental errors, if you copy them, your tree has them too.
Neil
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Together they had at least seven children (listed on this blog http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/battlerbob/f25.html#f1041 )
Jane COE (1844-1932) married Thomas EVANS
Charles COE (1847-1928) no spouse
Sophia COE (1848-1897) married John EVANS (brother of Jane's husband) then Elijah OSBORNE
Thomas COE (1851-1933) no spouse
Elizabeth COE (1856-1946) married John COVENTRY
George COE (1861 twin -1938) no spouse
Rachael COE (1861 twin -1935) no spouse
Rachel/Rachael died in 1935 and was buried at the Botany Cemetery with her husband Thomas BOWMAN. The burial record gives her age as 76 and this may be her birth:
6510/1859
CHO, RACHEL
CHARLES & ELIZABETH
at CARCOAR
There is no consecutive registration number for another child that might be a twin.
http://www.esmp.net.au/search-map-facility/cemetery-search
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/162527941
Debra :)
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Together they had at least seven children (listed on this blog http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/battlerbob/f25.html#f1041 )
Jane COE (1844-1932) married Thomas EVANS
Charles COE (1847-1928) no spouse
Sophia COE (1848-1897) married John EVANS (brother of Jane's husband) then Elijah OSBORNE
Thomas COE (1851-1933) no spouse
Elizabeth COE (1856-1946) married John COVENTRY
George COE (1861 twin -1938) no spouse
Rachael COE (1861 twin -1935) no spouse
Rachel/Rachael died in 1935 and was buried at the Botany Cemetery with her husband Thomas BOWMAN. The burial record gives her age as 76 and this may be her birth:
6510/1859
CHO, RACHEL
CHARLES & ELIZABETH
at CARCOAR
There is no consecutive registration number for another child that might be a twin.
http://www.esmp.net.au/search-map-facility/cemetery-search
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/162527941
Debra :)
Thanks Debra,
I was about to give up on the twin theory. The only George COE I can find born in that decade was George COE died 1838 in Tamworth (reg#19939). His head stone puts his age at 84 so an estimated birth year of 1854.... but no birth details so can not check parent names or place of birth (yet).
I have found NOTHING on Rachael COE. But if her name was mis-spelt, that would explain a lot.
I am in contact with a lady that is a descent of one of the PEARCE daughters, who has a copy of Elizabeth COE (nee PEARCE, nee MCGUINNESS) death certificate. If she is kind enough to share a copy with me, then I can sort of confirm which children she had that the death informant knew of.
In the mean time, I need to start saving up pennies to buy all these birth/death certificates.
Thanks for the info about the baptism records Majm.
Tracey
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So, may I assume that you already have validated all your own research back Sophia COE and John EVANS and you have official records to show they are the ancestors (ggg grandparents) of your husband. So now you are up to researching Sophia COE and John EVANS.
What official records do you actually hold for those two NSW people?
If this were my family, I would be considering ordering the official transcription of their marriage, and once I received that, I would be noting the elusive blanks, and contacting the Diocese Archives that should hold the parish register for that parish/clergyman.
Without the reconciled information (parish register plus NSW BDM civil registration) for that marriage, you may have some difficulty confirming/validating all the information available in the dc for Sophia OSBORNE.
Just my take on your quest. ;D as until you have the actual information that Sophia and John both gave about themselves for their marriage, how can you safely progress back to earlier generations? That's first hand information.
JM
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Absolutely. Marriage certificates are the key!
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.....
I am in contact with a lady that is a descent of one of the PEARCE daughters, who has a copy of Elizabeth COE (nee PEARCE, nee MCGUINNESS) death certificate. If she is kind enough to share a copy with me, then I can sort of confirm which children she had that the death informant knew of.
In the mean time, I need to start saving up pennies to buy all these birth/death certificates.
.....
May I just mention that:
The Elizabeth COE, who died in July 1898 and was buried at Coonamble was aged 77 as per the Australian Cemeteries Index.
NSW BDM has her dc noting her father as Charles and her mother as Unknown. (#9159).
http://austcemindex.com/inscription?id=6744736
The Sophia OSBORNE who died March 1897 and was buried at Coonamble was aged 49, as per the Australian Cemeteries Index.
NSW BDM has her dc noting her parents as Charles and Elizabeth (#985)
http://austcemindex.com/inscription?id=6745069
So if that were Mother and Daughter both buried in the Old Coonamble Cemetery, then Sophia’s mum was still alive and likely she was living nearby to Sophia when Sophia died. (Another tree has Charles COE as the chap who died at age 82, at Merilla, 18 August 1885, employed by William CHISHOLM, again, no supporting official records, just index references) .
Yes, the marriage certs should hold the key :)
Absolutely. Marriage certificates are the key!
Official transcriptions will have all the same info (including the same blanks) as the real deal certs and are not only cheaper, but also come already transcribed as email attachments. :)
JM
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NSW ER 1878 ARGYLE
Charles COE (qualified to be enrolled by) residence, Mirrilla. NO OTHERS with that surname on that ER.
Looks like there is a Probate Packet in Series 3 for that Charles COE, probate granted 3 Nov 1885. There may well be a dc in that file, and a will, and a disbursement of the deceased estate, naming beneficiaries. (dc may show how long in the colonies)
http://investigator.records.nsw.gov.au/Entity.aspx?Path=\Item\305321
ADD
1867 Directory ARGYLE
C COX Mirrilla. (Yes, this is for Cox, with an 'x' not with an 'e')
Trove:
Branded Yearling Colt and a Yellow Cow …. Charles COE, of Mummell, Goulburn Herald 29 June 1861 http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/105778280
Charles COE, of Merilla, Goulburn Evening PP 20 June 1885 http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/98443438
I wonder if that is the one chap, in 1861 and in 1885.
JM
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Rachel/Rachael died in 1935 and was buried at the Botany Cemetery with her husband Thomas BOWMAN. The burial record gives her age as 76 and this may be her birth:
6510/1859
CHO, RACHEL
CHARLES & ELIZABETH
at CARCOAR
There is no consecutive registration number for another child that might be a twin.
That birth certificate should give information about when and where Rachel's parents were married, and Charles occupation, their usual address, and details of Rachel's older siblings. In 1859, the Elizabeth COE who died Coonamble 1898 aged 77, was in her mid 30s. :) so perhaps born in 1820s.
So I had some spare moments this afternoon, and I have let my fingers do the walking, online, and from my armchair only.
I notice the following submitted information which makes me suggest that much of the info on those links Tracey has given in the OP are off the mark or not giving all the info they have found on various documents. I share:
Elizabeth, who died July 5, 1898, Coonamble NSW is noted as the wife of Charles COE, at the following SUBMITTED family tree: http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/McGuinness-118
So on that tree, Elizabeth 1806-1898 is also noted as the wife of Richard PEARCE, with their marriage as 9 January 1832, Scott’s Kirk, Margaret St, Sydney. And the citation for that marriage as V183222073A. That Elizabeth is given as the mother of Elizabeth PEARCE, born 21 Nov 1833, Richard PEARCE born 22 April 1834, Mary Ann PEARCE, born 9 April 1836, Robert PEARCE born 21 March 1838, Charles COE born about 1844, Berrimah, and Annie “Jane” PEARCE born 22 June 1844, West Bargo . The tree owner cites “A Convict Maid” as the source for the info re Annie “Jane” Pearce.
IF this turns out to be your Sophia’s ancestors, then my armchair searchings today lead me to comment that perhaps her mum may be one of the following lasses (A Convict Maid)
Elizabeth MACGINNIS on the Friendship of 1818 (wife of a Daniel as per her CF)
Elizabeth MCGEE on the Kains, 1831
Elizabeth KAYE (aka JONES) ON THE Kains 1831
Eliza COX on the Edward, 1829
BUT there’s so many many many dots between Sophia OSBORNE and Jane PEARCE that need to be checked and re-checked, official documents to be obtained, validating, eliminating and all those usual significant checks.
What I am surprised to see on any family tree with NSW families in the 1830s is a Presbyterian marriage and it followed by a C of E baptism for their first born.
I find that lass Elizabeth, as a daughter for Richard and Elizabeth and that lass was born 21 November 1832, (not 21 November 1833 that the submitted tree gives) Further I find she was baptised in January 1833. I have used two reliable sources (the historic records at family search and the NSW BDM Early Church Records "V" series)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTC8-JQJ
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/location/1927080?region=Australia
NSW BDM (INDEX only so not research, just look up searching)
Richard PEARCE and Elizabeth MCGUINNESS, marriage as Vol 73A, line 220, 1832. (JA code Scots Church, Presbyterian) (so matching the reference nos. on the submitted tree)
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/early-church-codes.aspx
and
Isabell daughter of Richard and Elizabeth PEARCE, Volume 17, line 410, 1833.
So, it seems to me that there's been various different people over the years try to prepare a family tree, and get themselves tangled up perhaps due to lack obtaining the official records.
JM
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Tangled up has to be a giant under statement.
I am sure it was Elizabeth MCGUINESS, widow of Richard PEARCE, who arrived on the "Friendship" with her mother and older brother. Elizabeth was signed into the Orphan Home not long after arriving, but was released into her brother's care as a teenager. She met PEARCE and had four children before he passed. I have been told that Richard's will prevented Elizabeth from ever re-marrying, so Elizabeth and Charles COE did not get married.
Elizabeth and Charles lived in Binda (near Crookwell) on the sheep station owned by her brother Thomas, at least until Thomas passed away. Family lore then says that Charles stayed in the Goulburn area, while Elizabeth and all the children joined a caravan of families moving from Victoria to the North West of NSW, eventually settling in Coonamble.
It is a great story, but I don't know how accurate any of it is, and how to find supporting information.
The PEARCE descendant I have been talking to, is related to the last of the PEARCE girls born, Mary Ann, who traveled with her mother before becoming a midwife, marrying, and staying in the Goulburn area after Elizabeth and the younger children moved on. She was passed down photos of the family in Coonamble, so that suggests a link at least.
I am going to put this on the back burner for a bit. I need to figure out what certificates I need copies of and get them ordered. That will be the clearest way to link all the kids with the same parents I think.
thanks for your help!
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Hi Tracey
I am a direct descendant from Charles COE Snr, the unfortunate convict who arrived on the Katharine Stewart Forbes in 1830. I have read through your initial posts re Sophia COE who and can confirm that my great great grandfather Charles COE Jnr born in 1847 in Berrima was indeed a brother to your Sophia EVANS (née COE).
Charles COE Jnr m Elizabeth PARKER (née HAMBLIN) whose son Sydney (Thomas) COE m Ethel Pearl TATTERSALL parents of my grandmother Lilian Madge HARRIS (née COE).
I have been researching the family for many years and have found so many unverified sources that I decided to retrace much of what has been recorded via publicly available online family trees - very few items are correct. The info from the PEARCE descendants you mentioned in "A Convict Maid" have been verified though there is only a small amount on Charles COE there is a significant history of Elizabeth McGuinness and her family.
I will add what I know with sources soon. Looking forward to clearing some brick walls!
cheers Deb Kelly
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Hi Tracey.
We're related!
For years my aunt in law and now also myself have been trying to work this tree out. We have a lot of baptism records all from Coonamble. I saw you're researching our elusive John Howard and his son Patrick too!
re the pearce/coe/evans/Mcguiness families... there is a lady who's husband is related to the pearce side and has done extensive research, including probate look ups etc... her name escapes me at the moment but I will try and find out for you. i know she has gotten a lot of the marriage and birth and death records, as has my husbands aunt.
I have been to Coonamble and have photos some where of the memorial wall with Elizabeth Jnr's name on it. The old cemetry is a park now and from memory some of the graves were moved and some weren't.
The family was quite a large one!
My husbands Pop was part of the Howard group and grew up in Coonamble.
Any way... I have been working on this for 5 years now, on and off. Would love to solve it soon as my Aunt in law has always wanted to find 'the first howard' Of course his name had to be JOHN! nothing like trying to find some one who shares the same name as one of the country's ex-priministers lol!!!
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The lady who has done a massive amount of work on this... Her name came back to me but as some one has pointed out, as she's alive (as far as I know, its been about 2 years since I've corresponded with her) I have removed her name. She has posted extensively about our family online though... Her initials are JD. That should be enough to let you know wether our info crosses over.
I really do have to get Vivs paperwork back off her, she has so many certificates that she paid for and she's visited so many churches and local history groups!
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http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/NSW-ORANGEBATHURST/2007-04/1175490353
Hi there ClaireLouiseB,
Welcome,
I have popped a live link to some online conversations about the COE families. I am not a family member. You have mentioned the name of a person who may well be still alive, so I will ask a volunteer moderator to modify to remove that person's name. Don't panic though, as once you have made three posts, you will have access to all the features at RootsChat.
JM
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Hi Claire,
If you google the ladies names in "quotes" followed by family history Australia her email address pops up ;)
Regards
Sarah
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Hi, I am a descendant of Rachel (sometimes spelt Rachael) Coe and her husband Thomas Bowman of Coonamble NSW. Rachels mother Elizabeth was indeed the daughter of Elizabeth MacGinnis (wife of Daniel, Deceased in Newgate prison, London)) surname later changed to McGuiness, in Australia.
My interest is in the children of Rachel and Thomas (also known as Tom, Particularly my great, great grandmother Grace Mary Bowman. I have birth infomation on all of R &T's children, except Grace Mary as she is the only child of Rachel and Thomas whose birth record I cannot find. This saddens me as I promised my deceased nanna , Grace Mary, that Id find her record to help compile oyr family history. I have no info regarding Thomas Bowman but will take a trip to Coonamble one day and hope to view Church records then.
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Welcome to Rootschat, Meme9.
I can’t see a birth for Grace either.
Do you have her marriage or death certs, for age?:
7960/1921 MATHES Bertie L to BOWMAN Grace M COONAMBLE
187/1932 MACCLELLAND James C to MATHES Grace M SYDNEY
Death: 28169/1979 MACCLELLAND Grace Mary parents THOMAS and RACHEL
McCLELLAND Grace Mary Death notice 2 Dec 1979 Death formerly of Tempe Sydney Morning Herald 3 Dec 1979
James death and funeral notices, 1st page, columns 2 and 7: https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=lL5f5cZgq8MC&dat=19681106&printsec=frontpage&hl=en
Eastern Suburbs Cemetery:
Grace Mary McClelland 4-12-1979
P10 - Presbyterian FM 10, Position 402
James Connor McLelland 5-11-1968
P10 - Presbyterian FM 10, Position 402
Daughter of Grace, mentioned in James’ death notice:
Birth: 21095/1921 MATHES Mona parents BERTIE L and GRACE M COONAMBLE
Death: 12653/1921 MATHES Bertie L parents THOMAS and SARAH COONAMBLE
Marriage: 10043/1930 CHIVERS David J to MATHES Mona REDFERN
At Eastern Suburbs Cemetery:
A5C - Anglican FM 5C, Position 2144
Mona Chivers 11-2-1980
David John Chivers 18-4-1963
CHIVERS Mona Death notice 7 Feb 1980 Death 67 late of Revesby Sydney Morning Herald 9 Feb 1980
Death and funeral notices for David. Type 12 into small white box, 1st and 5th columns: https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=lL5f5cZgq8MC&dat=19630418&printsec=frontpage&hl=en
6087/1883 BOWMAN Thomas to COE Rachael COONAMBLE
17075/1935 BOWMAN Rachel parents CHARLES and ELIZABETH NEWTOWN
11002/1936 BOWMAN Thomas parents WILLIAM and MARY NEWTOWN
At Eastern Suburbs Cemetery:
UC - Uniting FM C, Position 31
Rachel Bowman 31-7-1935
Thomas Bowman 15-5-1936
Thomas Hilton Bowman 1-10-1963
Rachel Bowman death mention, 3rd column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article162527941
Funeral: http://www.rootschat.com/links/01opu/
Thomas Snr funeral notice, funeral notice: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article17344766
Obit, 5th column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article231322259
I’m not seeing a birth for Thomas, although there is a William and Mary Bowman having children in the general area, at the right time.
There is only one marriage in NSW between 1840 and 1860:
2081/1860 BOWMAN William to WILD Mary MUDGEE
There is an Adelaide BOWMAN born 1868 and married in COONAMBLE to Edward FORREST 900/1895 maybe a sister of Thomas. Then Martha born 1873 married COONAMBLE to William A EVANS 3247/1892
Headstone for Martha and I believe her mother Mary: https://austcemindex.com/inscription?id=9756379#images
Death of Mary: 12389/1905 BOWMAN Mary parents THOMAS and MARY J COONAMBLE
Possible husband of Mary: https://austcemindex.com/inscription?id=9756381
1561/1896 BOWMAN William parents WILLIAM and CATHERINE COONAMBLE
I think this is Adelaide’s death: 18830/1941 Randwick, funeral notice 4th column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article17755201
At Rookwood: Adelaide Forrest
Date of Burial : 7 JUL 1941
Age : UNKNOWN
Plot : 14_Zone D/#/914
Jamjar
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Children of Rachel and Thomas Bowman, born COONAMBLE:
27034/1884 John - marriage 11004/1909 GARDNER Bertha A - deaths 38731/1969 as John Stanley BOWMAN COONAMBLE, 32884/1959 Bertha Ada
Headstone photo for John and wife: https://austcemindex.com/inscription?id=9755939#images
27814/1885 Thomas death 12568/1885 COONAMBLE
28599/1886 Gertrude - married 3947/1905 MCGINLEY Francis D - death 4777/1966 SYDNEY
At Eastern Suburbs Cemetery
RC2 - Roman Catholic FM 2, Position 663
Gertrude McGinley 6-9-1966
Francis David McGinley 12-9-1951
Gertrude’s death and funeral notices. Type 14 into small white box, 3rd and 2nd last columns: https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=lL5f5cZgq8MC&dat=19660906&printsec=frontpage&hl=en
Francis’ death and funeral notices, 2nd and 7th columns: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article18230036
Obit, 3rd column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article82760786
11012/1890 Thomas - marriages 12991/1921 BURNES Grace and 16852/1926 KERZ Rachel M E - death 35172/1963 as Thomas Hilton Bowman NEWTOWN
At Eastern Suburbs Cemetery:
UC - Uniting FM C, Position 31
Thomas Hilton Bowman 1-10-1963
BOWMAN Thomas Hilton Death notice 29 Sep 1963 Death late of St. Peters Sydney Morning Herald 30 Sep 1963
11644/1893 Ivy - married 4721/1910 COE Stanley - death 28997/1988
COE Ivy Death notice 18 Nov 1988 Death 97 late of Jurien Bay, WA Sydney Morning Herald 19 Nov 1988
31640/1895 Charles - married 12000/1921 PICKUP Hilda M - deaths 8801/1965 Charles COONAMBLE, 6479/1986 Hilda Mary
Headstone photo for Charles and wife: https://austcemindex.com/inscription?id=9755935#images
2559/1898 Jane I think she may be the Mrs J Smith mentioned in Rachel’s funeral notice, but I can’t find a marriage for her.
30841/1900 George W - marriage 12267/1920 WILLIAMS Eva
2532/1903 Noel - married 8119/1923 SCIFLEET Helen M - death 70458/1973 COONAMBLE
Headstone photos for Noel and wife: https://austcemindex.com/inscription?id=9755932#images https://austcemindex.com/inscription?id=9755931#images
22314/1905 Lerlie - married 15072/1926 GIBBESON Wilfred as Lurline at REDFERN - death 22035/1949 MARRICKVILLE - Death and funeral notices 1st and 5th columns: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article27585226
At Eastern Suburbs Cemetery:
Luline Gibbeson 15-8-1949
UC - Uniting FM C, Position 190
22663/1953 GIBBESON Wilfred to MANNERS Marion Cleve ROCKDALE
GIBBESON Wilfred Death notice 10 Oct 2000 Death 95 late of Kingsgrove Sydney Morning Herald 11 Oct 2000
At Woronora Cemetery with wife:
Anglican Monumental - Section 4 - 1290
Wilfred Gibbeson 10-10-2000 4-5-2001 Ashes
Marian Gibbeson 18/04/2004 19/07/2004 Ashes
Marriages for the lads are just possibles, based on their ages and location.
Jamjar
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I think this is Adelaide’s death: 18830/1941 Randwick, funeral notice 4th column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article17755201
At Rookwood: Adelaide Forrest
Date of Burial : 7 JUL 1941
Age : UNKNOWN
Plot : 14_Zone D/#/914
Adelaide is buried with a daughter I think.
From headstone inscription disc:
Anglican Section 14 Row 22 Grave 914
FORREST, Adelaide 04 Jul 1941 73
HARPER, Hilda 10 Apr 1934 48
Inscriptions: Wife of Edward, Our sister
Jamjar
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Dear Jamjar, I am impressed! Thankyou so much. I have some of this info, but not all and I am grateful to you. All of these relatives are on my mothers maternal side. Im struggling to find much at all on the paternal side. I have Mona and David Chivers, whom you mention, and Davids parents Lucy Isobel Tollis and George Chivers, and siblings then am trying to follow the Chivers line back to England.
Jamjar you are amazing. Again many thanks.
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You are most welcome, I’m happy to have something to keep the little grey cells firing.
Now the Chivers. I know you know but will post for reference:
Marriage: 8457/1906 CHIVERS George to TOLLIS Lucy I WATERLOO
Births:
41568/1907 George M - married 9569/1931 HAWTHORN Alice M - death 21185/1952 George Maxwell father as George CAMERON
Death and funeral notices for George Maxwell, 1st page, 1st and 4th columns: https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=lL5f5cZgq8MC&dat=19520906&printsec=frontpage&hl=en
At Rookwood Cemetery:
George M Chivers
Date of Burial: 4 SEP 1952
Age: 44
Plot: Presbyterian 5G_Zone A/#/574
Possibly his wife: CHIVERS Alice Maud Death notice 26 Sept 1992 Death 86 late of Girraween Sydney Morning Herald 28 Sept 1992
9692/1909 Alma I - married 23377/1940 GAMMIDGE Garnet Edward - death 19093/1976 father as a George
Death and funeral notices, 1st page, 2nd and 8th columns: https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=lL5f5cZgq8MC&dat=19760805&printsec=frontpage&hl=en
Her husband’s death and funeral notices, 2nd and 9th columns: https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=lL5f5cZgq8MC&dat=19670920&printsec=frontpage&hl=en
At Eastern Suburbs Cemetery:
A5D - Anglican FM 5D, Position 122
Garnet Edward Gammidge 19-9-1967
Alma Isobel Gammidge 6-8-1976
21342/1910 David J death 14721/1963 David John father as George MAXWELL
11283/1912 James R death 28677/1977 James Ronald father as George TARRANT
At Eastern Suburbs Cemetery:
A33 - Anglican FM 33, Position 295
James Ronald Chivers 6-12-1977
Malcolm Chivers 9-9-1985
1009/1915 Jack E - married 15233/1938 LYON Janet - death 2999/1971 Jack Edward father as George TANNER
Death notice, 1st page: https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=lL5f5cZgq8MC&dat=19710608&printsec=frontpage&hl=en
His wife: Janet Death notice 1 May 2006 Death 88 at Lark Ellen Nursing Home, formerly of Jannali St George & Sutherland Leader 4 May 2006
At Woronora Cemetery:
Ff - Rose Garden 18 - 0073
Jack Chivers 6–6-1971 Ashes
Janet Chivers 1-5-2006 6-7-2006 Ashes
Malcolm (as per George’s death notice) death 23562/1985 father as GEORGE CAMERON
At Eastern Suburbs Cemetery:
A33 - Anglican FM 33, Position 295
James Ronald Chivers 6-12-1977
Malcolm Chivers 9-9-1985
Deaths:
667/1938 CHIVERS George parents JOHN FERRANT and MARGARET
Death notice, 1st column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article17421207
25436/1959 CHIVERS Lucy Isobel parents EDWARD and EMMA
Death and funeral notices, 1st page, 1st and 6th columns: https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=lL5f5cZgq8MC&dat=19590915&printsec=frontpage&hl=en
At Eastern Suburbs Cemetery
AA7 - Anglican FM A7, Position 7
George Chivers 5-1-1938
Lucy Isobel Chivers 5-9-1959
I think his birth:
10694/1882 CHIVERS George parents JOHN F and MARGARET GOULBURN
Marriage: 2838/1881 CHIVERS John to McDONALD Margaret GOULBURN
Death of Margaret: 6764/1889 CHIVERS Margaret parents DANIEL and JULIA
Funeral of Margaret, 6th column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article98489756
I wonder if the F should be a T. A John T marries a Sophia in GOULBURN in 3776/1890
2440/1906 CHIVERS John T father WILLIAM at NEWTOWN
A John T is buried 1906, 2nd column:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article14758309
At Rookwood Cemetery, wrongly transcribed:
John J. Chivers
Date of Burial: 12 MAR 1906
Age: 56
Plot: Methodist New 3B_Zone F/#/1096
There is a NSW probate for John T Chivers: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2TW-DS7M
I think George’s brother Donald died of the flu 1919.
What do you already have on them?
There are these UK births and a marriage:
Jun 1846 Highworth 8 583
CHIVERS William
TARRANT Eliza
CHIVERS, GEORGE mmn TARRANT
GRO Reference: 1847 J Quarter in SWINDON AND HIGHWORTH Volume 08 Page 336
CHIVERS, JOHN TARRANT mmn TARRANT
GRO Reference: 1849 S Quarter in HIGHWORTH & SWINDON Volume 08 Page 337
CHIVERS, JAMES mmn TARRANT
GRO Reference: 1851 S Quarter in ABINGDON Volume 06 Page 147
CHIVERS, ELIZABETH mmn TARRANT
GRO Reference: 1853 M Quarter in OXFORD Volume 03A Page 540
CHIVERS, ANN mmn TARRANT
GRO Reference: 1855 J Quarter in READING Volume 02C Page 309
CHIVERS, WILLIAM mmn TARRANT
GRO Reference: 1857 M Quarter in WALLINGFORD Volume 02C Page 298
CHIVERS, CAROLINE mmn TARRANT
GRO Reference: 1859 J Quarter in ABINGDON Volume 02C Page 278
CHIVERS, ALICE mmn TARRANT
GRO Reference: 1863 J Quarter in ETON BUCKS Volume 03A Page 381
1851 census: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SG8R-X77
1861 census: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7JT-3T7
1871 census: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBDB-QLP
Not sure about the 1881.
So, did he come to Australia between 1871 and 1881.
Jamjar
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TOLLIS:
Marriage: 19/1812 V181219 7 TOLLIS Thomas to WATERS Ann CA 1358/1812 V18121358 3A TOLLIS Thomas to WATERS Ann CA
Deaths:
571/1821 V1821571 8 TOLLIS Thomas AGE 44 5168/1821 V18215168 2B TOLLIS Thomas AGE 44
484/1821 V1821484 8 TOLLIS Ann AGE 32 5034/1821 V18215034 2B TOLLIS Ann AGE 32
A notice re: the orphan children of Thomas TOLLIS, last column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article2180398
Marriage: 971/1832 V1832971 16 TOLLIS Thomas to BARNETT Ann CA
Death: 4514/1880 TOLLIS Thomas parents THOMAS and ANN
Death notice, 1st column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article13465268
His wife: 6109/1885 TOLLIS Ann father WILLIAM
Her funeral notices, 1st column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article13595479
At Rookwood Cemetery:
Thomas Tollis
Date of Burial: 4 AUG 1880
Age: UNKNOWN
Plot: BB_Zone B/#/22
Annie Tollis
Date of Burial:17 AUG 1885
Age: UNKNOWN
Plot: BB_Zone B/#/22
Thomas Tollis
Date of Burial: 1 JAN 1910
Age: UNKNOWN
Plot: BB_Zone B/#/21
Birth: 639/1844 V1844639 TOLLIS Edwin parents THOMAS and ANN (six siblings on NSWBDM)
Marriage: 529/1867 TOLLIS Edwin to CLARKE Emma SYDNEY
Deaths:
5526/1926 TOLLIS Emma parents JAMES and Sophia
Emma funeral notice, type 5 into small white box, 1st column: https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=lL5f5cZgq8MC&dat=19260409&printsec=frontpage&hl=en
12244/1926 TOLLIS Edwin parents THOMAS and ANN
TOLLIS Edwin Funeral notice 5 Aug 1926 Funeral late of Alexandria Sydney Morning Herald 5 Aug 1926
At Eastern Suburbs Cemetery:
AA7 - Anglican FM A7, Position 5
Emma Tollis 9-4-1926
Edwin Tollis 5-8-1926
Births:
4498/1871 Sydney - married 9314/1900 ALLEN Ellen M - possible death 18754/1944 TOLLIS Sydney Edwin 72 YRS WESTERN DIV NEW ANGLEDOOL
18578/1928 TOLLIS Ellen M father EDWARD J 46YRS BALMAIN NORTH BALMAIN NORTH
In Memoriam, 3rd column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article16612547
At Rookwood Cemetery:
Ellen Tollis
Date of Burial: 24 Dec 1928
Age: UNKNOWN
Plot: FF_Zone B/#/670
6346/1878 Florence Louisa - married 4815/1905 FLETCHER Henry - death 12372/1959 father wrongly named as Stephen.
FLETCHER Florence Louise Obituary 9 April 1959 Death 82 late of Braidwood Goulburn Post 16 April 1959
25774/1959 FLETCHER Henry Robert parents STEPHEN and ELIZABETH
At Braidwood Old General Cemetery:
Grave photos: https://austcemindex.com/inscription?id=15628291#images
https://austcemindex.com/inscription?id=15628290#images
7428/1880 Edward died 19122/1936
9206/1883 Esther Gertrude - married 7859/1903 SMITH Stephen E - death 12394/1957
SMITH Esther Gertrude Death notice 29 May 1957 Death 74 late of Sans Souci Sydney Morning Herald 1 June 1957
20851/1924 SMITH Stephen E parents STEPHEN H and MARGARET
Death notice for Stephen, 1st column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article16207424
Funeral notice for Stephen, 2nd column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article16203416
At Woronora Cemetery:
Roman Catholic Monumental - Section 1 - 0195
Esther Smith 29-5-1957
Stephen Smith 15-12-1924
Stephen Smith 2-10-1964 (This is their son)
11189/1885 Lucy I
12580/1887 Oliver J died 1933/1963
At Eastern Suburbs Cemetery:
AA7 - Anglican FM A7, AA7 - Anglican FM A7, Position 7
Oliver James Tollis - ashes
36566/1890 Eliza A - married 5474/1916 ROBERTSON Leonard as Alma E - death 28989/1966 ROBERTSON Alma Eliza
ROBERTSON Alma Eliza Death notice 16 July Death 75 at Oatley Sydney Morning Herald 18 July 1966
109/1933 ROBERTSON Leonard parents HERBERT and ELIZABETH
A sad end for Leonard, 6th column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article247103170
At Eastern Suburbs Cemetery:
AA7 - Anglican FM A7, Position 6
Leonard Robertson 2-2-1933
Alma Eliza Robertson 19-7-1966
37075/1893 David J death 11665/1962
TOLLIS David John Death notice 3 May 1962 Death 69 late of Malabar Sydney Morning Herald 5 May 1962
At Eastern Suburbs Cemetery:
North Walls, Wall K, Position 126
David John Tollis 3-5-1962 20-7-1962
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More on the UK Chivers.
Jun 1846 Highworth 8 583
CHIVERS William
TARRANT Eliza
The 1861 census has William born 1827, Wroughton, Wiltshire, England
A fitting christening has parents as Stephen and Mary:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J9FR-GYC
Likely to be William and family on the 1841, Tarrant’s in the same household. Including an Elizabeth TARRANT, who would be a good fit or the Eliza who married William:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M73T-BJQ
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M73Y-MJB
Stephen, Mary and family in 1851, 1861 and 1871:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGZX-9T5
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7JZ-M6R
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VFNT-BW7
A possible marriage: Stephen CHIVERS to Mary DANIELS, 1924:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NXSG-5HH
Jamjar
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I think if this was my tree I’d first get a copy of John’s probate record, which may include marriage certs and death certs. If no useful information there I’d purchase a transcript of the marriage cert for John T and Sophia:
3776/1890 CHIVERS John T to HARRIS Sophia GOULBURN
Births:
14660/1888 Georgina HARRIS parents George and Sophia GOULBURN (Sophia’s first husband) death 11289/1960 Georgina Harris MCMANUS
14463/1891 John S CHIVERS GOULBURN death 6553/1891 GOULBURN
37263/1893 Sydney James CHIVERS WATERLOO death 13282/1968 BURWOOD
27183/1897 Alice H A CHIVERS WATERLOO death 13282/1968 Alice Harriet Anne WILLIAMS, incorrectly has father as George
Marriages:
5702/1914 McMANUS Charles W to HARRIS Georgina ANNANDALE
12050/1919 WILLIAMS Charles G to CHIVERS Alice H A PETERSHAM
7509/1920 CHIVERS Sydney J to MCKENZIE Louisa BALMAIN SOUTH
Sophia’s death and funeral notices only mentions her children, 1st and 4th columns:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article18032221
Jamjar
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Dear Jamjar,
Thankyou for all your hard work. I have no information on Chivers family other than the names John Ferrant Chivers marriage to Margaret McDonald. Im fascinated to consider that the Ferrant could and possibly should be Tarrant as per a wifes maiden name handed down as a middle name. We always wondered about the name Ferrant and its beginnings we even consider french connections. You may have solved the puzzle for us. Again many thanks. My mum is 88 and will be so happy to learn something of her families history. Now I want to construct lives and attach them to the names. I know George Maxwell was a train driver and wonder if thats a family occupation followed down the male line. :) many thanks . Meme