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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: trewinb on Saturday 28 May 16 13:00 BST (UK)
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William Westall was a partner in the London firm of Westall & Co., Later Baggallay, Spence and Westall, a haberdashery wholesaler. In 1826 William Westall (or his father?) is listed as one of the founding 'proprietors' of the University of London. In 1830 he is a plaintiff in a theft court case at the Old Bailey, representing the firm, which was then at King Street, Cheapside. (The defendant was found guilty and sentenced to transportation for seven years). In 1831 he was an initial subscriber to 'A Topograghical Dictionary of England'. In 1835 he is listed as an elector for Aylesford in a poll to select the knights of the shire representing the western division of the county of Kent in parliament. His address is given as 20, King Street, Cheapside. By 1839 the firm has moved to Love Lane, Aldermanbury, London, as witnessed by a petition to parliament for lower postal rates, to which the firm is a signee. There is a record of a William Westall apprenticed to a haberdashery firm in Oxford.
I am looking for baptism, burial and marriage records for him and for his son William.
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When was William junior born, presumably you have him on census somewhere :-\
I am looking for baptism, burial and marriage records for him and for his son William.
How do you know that William juniors father was also called William
Rosie
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The Gazette has an entry stating that the partnership between William Westall, Thomas Westall, Robert Spence & Richard Baggalley was dissolved 24th June 1815
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/17032/page/1290/data.pdf
ADDED I see that William Westall's retirement was the reason for the partnership being dissolved
http://www.coulthart.com/avery/company-pages/baggallays-history.html
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My great grandfather was William Westall. He was the first not to join the firm. His father was William M. Westall, whose last known residence was in Croydon and was a partner in the firm. I understand his father was also William but do not have the baptism record so perhaps I should start by getting William M. Westall's birth details and go backwards from there. I have no information whatsoever regarding Thomas other than the mention in the Gazette. I am not near my computer at the moment so I will give you more information later and would appreciate any help.
Bruce
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Is this them in 1871 Croydon :-\
William M Westall 44 bn City of London, Middlesex
Helen 41 bn City of London, Middlesex
Helen Maud 13 bn Lambeth, Surrey
Laura 10 bn Lambeth
Ada 11 bn Lambeth
Elizabeth 9 bn Lambeth
William 5 bn Croydon, Surrey
Henrietta 4 bn Croydon
Henry R. 1 bn Croydon
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William M. Westall's sister was Jane Kynaston. I have seen her marriage record giving her father as William Westall. The question is was his father Thomas or William?
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This is the family in 1851
Wright's Lane, Streatham
William Westall head 50 Whalebone Merchant St.Saviour, Southwark
Jane Westall wife 49 Aldermanbury
William M.Westall son 24 Warehouseman St.Saviour, Southwark
Jane Westall dau 23
Louisa Westall dau 19
Ellen Westall dau 18
Marion Westall dau 9
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Marriage of William and Jane
Jane Mawley
William Westall
9 Jul 1825
St Mary, Lewisham
Image is on Ancestry - witnesses are both Mawley. Married by Licence
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William Westall baptised 1800 St.Saviour, Southwark
Parents Thomas and Winifred - haberdasher
Thomas died in 1817 and mentions Westall, Spence and Bag. in his Will
The above William is unlikely to be the one who retired fron the company in 1815. He would only have been 15!
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Baptisms for children of Thomas & Winifred on familysearch
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01hpd/
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It seems Thomas Westall married Winifred Westall
5 October 1799 Saint Saviour, Southwark
I wonder if they were related
Marriage image is on Ancestry
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London Freedom of the City Admission Papers 16 July 1847 -
William Mawley Westall born 12 April 1826 Kings Street, Cheapside
Father - William Westall
JJ
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Thank you Rosie, Lily and JJen,
I now have much more to digest. I am still hoping to tie down the older William and his ancestry. I will post again when I have a definite search prepared. So much learned and so quickly.
Bruce
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The William Westall who retired from WB and S in 1815 must be either the brother of Thomas or his Father?
Bruce
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The William Westall who died in Chiselhurst in 1824 was originally a haberdasher of 57 Borough, Southwark
The Will was written in 1821
He mentions partners Robert Spence and Richard Baggerlay
Leaves money to his grandsons William Westall aged 20; Thomas aged 17; Richard aged 11 plus others. The Will is quite a few pages long.
So this looks to be the father of Thomas Westall, who married Winifred, and is very likely the one who retired in 1815
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Looking closer ..... I see William, who died 1824, also mentions his daughter Rachael Weedon Butler.
I see there was a Rachael Westall born 1773 in Bermondsey - parents William and Hannah.
William and Hannah also had a daughter, Winifred, in 1775.
So it looks more likely that the William retiring in 1815 was Winifred's father.
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Thanks Lily,
It is so confusing when families continue to use so few names and then complicate things by marrying cousins. I'll have to map this one out to clarify it, but it certainly looks like you have found the document that sorts them all out!
Bruce
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1811 Holdens Directory
Westall Westall & Spence Haberdashers 57 Borough
W.Westall & S Button manufacturers 2 Sheffield Street Clare Market
Jennifer
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23/11/1855 St Luke West Norwood
Thomas Weston Baggallay married Louisa Westall
Jennifer
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By 1901 3 Clarence Lawn Dover
Thos W Baggalay 79 Own means Camberwell
Louisa 69 own means City
Jennifer
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Thanks Jennifer,
Does this infer that they have separated?
Bruce
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No they are together, Camberwell and City is their place of birth.
Jennifer
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William and Jane are still at Wrights Lane Streatham in 1841 census with six children.
Jennifer
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11/8/1864 St Leonards Streatham
Ellen Westall married Thomas Marden who was H M Insp. of Schools in India.
Jennifer
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20/8/1861 St Leonards Streatham
Marian Westall married James King a Merchant who gave his address as Barony Glasgow
Jennifer
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Yes, of course, thanks again Jennifer. What I need to do now is find out the parents of the elder William Westall, the writer of the will. Incidentally my great grandfather, the William Westall who emigrated to Canada, always described himself as the black sheep of the family for not having gone into the family business, but no one knew anything about the family in the U.K. He was educated at Tonbridge at Silwood House and was listed there in the 1881 census. He must have emigrated shortly after leaving school.
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One of the witnesses to Thomas and Winifred's marriage in 1799 was a Rachel Butler, Rachell Westall married Richard Weedon Butler in Rye Sussex in 1799, he was born in 1767, so if she was a sister to Thomas this may give an indication of when he was born.
jennifer
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Morning Advertiser London, England
15 Aug 1864
BIRTHS
Thomas Marden, Esq., B. i., one of H.M.’s Inspectors of Schools, Madras Presidency, to Ellen, third daughter of the late William Westall, Esq., of Streathan, Surrey. On the llth inst., Malvern Wells, by the Rev. F. Hopkinson, Lieut.-Col. Robert Biddulph...
The above infers that William (the father of my W.M.Westall) died between the census of 1851 and Ellen's marriage in 1864. I had him buried later on (21 Nov 1870). I am still confused between two William Westalls.
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1861 census Leigham Court Road Streatham
Jane Westall 59 wid fund holder
Ellen 28
Alfred C 25 Gen Foreign Merchant
Winifred 24
Amy 22
Marian 19 all born London
so William died before 1861
Jennifer
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Sept qtr 1852 Wandsworth looks a good bet for his death.
Jennifer
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Burial 18/8/1852 William Westall aged 52 of Streatham Common burial Norwood Cemetery Lambeth
Jennifer
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Lily and Jennifer,
Just to clarify things, are we saying that both Thomas and Winnifred each had fathers named William Westall of a similar age? One would appear to be living in Southwark and the other in Bermondsey who was married to Hannah.
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Morning Bruce,
It looks that, so far, we haven't found a baptism or parents for Thomas.
The William Westall who retired in 1815 is almost certainly the one who died in 1824. In his Will he mentions his late partners Robert Spence and Richard Baggerlay.
He leaves money to his son in law Richard Weedon Butler. Husband to his, now decased, daughter Rachael. Also money to their child William Westall Butler.
Money also goes to the children of his daughter Winifred.
William Westall aged 20
Thomas aged 17
Edward aged 13
Richard aged 11
Samuel 9 (the Will was actually written in 1821)
He also leaves money to his nieces. So, hopefully, these will lead us back further. They are: Jane Gifford Cain wife of Robert Cain of Liverpool; Ann Allen, spinster and Sarah Whitcombe ? (I can't read the name clearly)
So, this William was Winifred's father. I wonder what relation Winifred and Thomas were to oneanother.
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To answer your query properly - The above William Westall was married to a Hannah. They were living in Bermondsey at the time their two daughters were born - 1773 and 1775.
William later moved to Southwark. Insurance records show him being there from at least 1792 till 1817. He died in Chiselhurst in 1824.
So this William is the great grandfather of your William Mawley Westall.
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Thank you Lily,
I spent this afternoon re-reading the discussion so far and now see why I became misled. Your explanation and the re-read now make things quite clear. I wonder if the elder William is the same as the original founder of the firm of "Westall Wm., Wholesale Haberdasher, 57, Borough" listed in the Kent's Directory for the Year 1794. Cities of London and Westminster, & Borough of Southwark.
Thanks again,
Bruce
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Yes, that certainly looks likely.
I've spent the past hour or so trying to go back with this family. I'm pretty confident that I've found them all - originating from Hungerford.
It seems that the parents of Thomas and Winifred were cousins. Guess what Thomas' father's name was. Yes ... it was William.
I will explain more tomorrow when I have more time.
There's a website that has Hungerford monuments on it, which has a lot of Westalls including Thomas and Winifred, even though they died in London.
Do you have access to Ancestry? They have the Will for Richard Westall who died 1760 in London. He was William's (the 1st) uncle.
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Thank you Lily,
I was wondering about the Hungerford Westalls., but there were several other families as well with similar names. Look forward to seeing your results and am really grateful for all of the time and effort you have put in. Unfortunately I do not have access to Ancestry, but if of interest I may order a copy from the Archives site.
Bruce
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This is the site with lots of Westall family information but I have not as yet made the link to our Thomas. It contains wills for various Westalls and their property holdings.
http://www.hungerfordvirtualmuseum.co.uk/index.php/23-places/charnham-street-properties/431-1-charnham-street
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The Hungerford site you mention is very useful for your family. If you follow all the links for Westall, it shows the Westall deaths that were recorded. Also, there's a photo of the Riverside House that some of them lived in!
Their Will transcriptions are not thorough. I've looked through the originals and can see that they left son William off the Will for William Westall who died 1723.
Also they've left out son Thomas from the Will of Edward Westall who died 1811.
Maybe taking out just a one month subscription for the Premium package on Ancestry for £13.99 would work out cheaper than ordering all the Wills separately. (Just a thought - I don't work for them :))
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This is what I've found for Thomas Westall (the one who married Winifred):
The Hungerford Virtual Museum has the death record for him. Thomas Westall - haberdasher - died 30th May 1817 (age 50) in South ?
(They have the ? after South. I'm assuming it says South London)
Also, death record for: Winifred - wife of Thomas - died 1819 age 43
So, Thomas must have originated from Hungerford. Born c 1767
There's this baptism for Hungerford
Thomas Westall baptised 2nd July 1766 - parents William and Anne Westall
I don't want to add any more to this at the moment, as it could get confusing. Besides, it might be more fun for you to trace them yourself. Especially if you get to see the Wills, which help to slot them all together. And you may very well come to a different conclusion to me.
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I've come back because I forgot to say that William Mawley's father died in 1852, as suggested earlier. He wrote a Will which has been mistranscribed as William Westad
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Thanks Lily,
Very exciting. Thanks for your research. I will plod through, although I am not nearly as fast as you are. I guess that I will have to invest in a little of Ancestry although I will have to prepare the ground first and block off some time to take full advantage. I am currently researching five different family lines in the UK and one in Canada. Rootschat has been immensely helpful with most of these. It is always so reassuring to have someone check and correct my conclusions and wild assumptions. I will report back.
Regards,
Bruce
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Just a quick stab at parentage of Thomas:
Marriage: 9 June 1760 William Westall to Anne Savage
My initial thoughts for Anne are baptism 6 Feb 1741 St Giles, Reading Berkshire Father: Thomas
Mother: Ann
William of course would be son of Edward (died 1st March 1748).
Regards,
Bruce
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An early will for HUNGERFORD:1707 edmund chilvester charnham street hungerford brk dean of sarum will, grant 9080
Will of edmund chilvester of charnham street yeoman.
Testator is aged and infirm. To son in law william westall 12d. To grandson edward westall messuage lands and tenements in hungerford called undyes. To grandson richard westall 2 acres of meadow and 4 acres of land called sadlers during the term of my leases, also my house and 20 acres of land on lease, also to be sole executor. Dared 16 march 1699. Makes mark, seal. Wit: john butler, john talmge, mary (X) white.
Probate to richard westall 16 dec 1707
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That's interesting Bruce. Looks like you may have gone back another generation there. Yet another William! This family could definitely have done with a Naming Your Baby book.
I agree with you about the parents of Thomas being William and Anne Pity I can't see a copy of the original marriage certificate anywhere. That may have indicated where Anne came from.
As the parents of Edward who died 1748 (mentioned two posts back) I have William Westall and Martha (nee King) Married 1699 in Chute, Wiltshire. Groom a currier from Hungerford.
The Richard Westall - haberdasher of London died 1760 - who is mentioned on Hungerford Virtual Museum - left a Will which may sort the family out a bit.
He leaves money to:
My sister Elizabeth King
The children of my brother Edward (Thomas, James and William)
The children of my brother William (William and Jane)
So, Richard and his siblings were probably the children of William and Martha. And brother Edward's son William, would have been your Thomas' father.
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The Will for William Westall is interesting. The transcription is online, free, somewhere. Is it on the Hungerford site? But, wherever it was, it shows all the property and money left to six of his children. But on the original is shows that the first person he bequeaths money to is his son William, who he gives £5! Then William isn't mentioned again.
I wonder if they had a falling out. And is this why we're having so much trouble tracing back to Winifred's father. (The retired in 1815 one)
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The Will for the William (retired 1815) dated 1824, has been mentioned earlier. I was hoping it would help to trace him back, but it isn't at all straightforward. Have you had any luck with it?
In the Will, William names his niece Jane Gifford Cain wife of Robert Cain of Liverpool. Formerly Jane Gifford. And his niece Ann Allen spinster, sister of Jane Gifford Cain.
Finding the marriage was nice and easy
Robert Cain married 1797 in Liverpool to Jane Gifford Allen
Witnesses George Morley and Ann Allen
There's this baptism, which is a bit confusing. Was John the true father? On the 1841 census, Jane gives her age as 64 (b.1777)
Baptised 21st March 1777 - Bradford, Yorks.
Jane Gifford - father (?) John Allen of Gt.Horton (The question mark is because I can't tell if that is a W. or a Mr.)
And this baptism
Baptised March 1778 - Keighley, Yorks.
Ann daughter of John Allen by his wife Jane, daughter of William Westall, gent. (A very handy piece of information).
Thus, William Westall (retired 1815) had a sister called Jane. So are they the William and Jane mentioned in Richard (dd1760) Will?
If so, I can't find baptisms for them anywhere. Nor can I find a marriage for a Jane Westall to a Gifford.
Looking for a marriage for William (ret.1815) and his wife Hannah. I found one for 1764 at St.Botolph, Bishopsgate. I ignored this at first as I thought it was too early to be them. Then I noticed that the witnesses were Jane Westall and H. Gifford. So maybe it is them.
H.Gifford's name is actually written out in full, but I just can't work out what it's meant to be. It's definitely not Henry or Herbert. Looks more like Hartbowe.
Now I must go. I'm going away on Saturday, and, unfortunately, have loads of things I must do. I would much rather be doing this.
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Tremendous progress Lily,
Yes, I too would rather be doing this but am a bit overwhelmed with work at the moment being in the middle of renovations on a house we hope to sell this summer. One rainy weekend I will attack Ancestry.co.uk with a passion and see how much I can get bagged before the bank account runs dry.
It is a bit addictive, isn't it?
Thanks again,
Bruce
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Talking of Giffords, I came across a baptism in the parish of Crowmarsh Gifford, Oxon. I wonderif the Giffords originated in Crowmarsh?
William Westall bapt. 23.11.1757 in Crowmarsh Gifford
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I've put a new post on here, asking for help to decipher H.Gifford's first name. It might prove helpful to know it, as it seems to be an unusual name.
Have you got any ideas as to what it could be?
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Hartbowe is a rare but existing family name. But I haven't found any relevant persons.
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I think the name has been solved now. Take a look through my other post on here. "Help deciphering this name please"
So do you think this is Jane Gifford's father. Him and Jane Westall broke up?
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Just realised that he can't have been Jane's father as he was married to someone else at the time that Jane was born. 1777
So she took on the name Gifford, as her mother had that name, but John Allen was her real father. I don't think Jane ever married John Allen.
Unfortunately, this doesn't get us any closer to finding the baptisms for Jane and her brother William Westall.
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William Westall and Hannah of Bermondsey also had a son William.
18 Sep 1768
Parish: St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey,
Parent(s): Willm Westall,
Hannah Westall
The father is listed in the registry as 'Gentleman'