RootsChat.Com

England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Rammers on Wednesday 25 May 16 20:37 BST (UK)

Title: Liverpool cowkeeper - I'm trying to find information on George Hall
Post by: Rammers on Wednesday 25 May 16 20:37 BST (UK)
I'm trying to find information on George Hall, who was a cowkeeper and hay dealer at 8 Murat Street Waterloo in c1910 - thanks.
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: groom on Wednesday 25 May 16 20:57 BST (UK)
Have you got a date of birth for him?
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: Rammers on Wednesday 25 May 16 20:59 BST (UK)
He was born in circa 1845 in Marston, Lincolnshire.
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: groom on Wednesday 25 May 16 21:06 BST (UK)
What sort of information are you looking for - for instance this is the family in 1901

RG13; Piece: 3444; Folio: 164; Page: 9
Waterloo

George Hall   56   Cow keeper an ? dealer                               Marston, Lincolnshire
Elizabeth A Hall   41                                                                    Isle of Man
William A Hall   8                                                                     Waterloo, Lancashire
Marion Hall   6                                                                     Waterloo, Lancashire
Winifred A Hall   4                                                                     Waterloo, Lancashire
Ernest K Hall   1                                                                     Waterloo, Lancashire
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: lizdb on Wednesday 25 May 16 21:08 BST (UK)
He's at the same Murat St address in 1901

1901
George Hall 56 cow keeper and hay dealer bn Marston Lincs
Elizabeth A 41 bn Isle of Man
Willam 8
Marian 6
Winifred 4
Ernest K 1     children all bn Waterloo Lancs


snap Groom!
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: Rammers on Wednesday 25 May 16 21:10 BST (UK)
Thanks for this.  I was hoping to find a picture of the dairy in Waterloo.......
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: groom on Wednesday 25 May 16 21:14 BST (UK)
Looks as if that was his second marriage


1871   RG10; Piece: 3836; Folio: 58; Page: 30
Waterloo


George Hall   25  Common carrier                         Marston
Hannah Hall   30  wife                                                Abergele, Denbighshire
Thomas Hall   18   servant   carter                         Doddington, Lincolnshire
Ann Jellicoe   21 boarder                                      Brimstage, Cheshire
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: groom on Wednesday 25 May 16 21:14 BST (UK)
Can you tell us what you have so that we don't duplicate it?
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: Rammers on Wednesday 25 May 16 21:16 BST (UK)
Yes, George was married twice, but lived at 8 Murat Street during both marriages.  That's all the information I have on him.
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: lizdb on Wednesday 25 May 16 21:20 BST (UK)
Are you wanting other info? eg when first wife died, children etc?
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: ScouseBoy on Wednesday 25 May 16 21:21 BST (UK)
Have a look at Street View or Google maps,   Number 8 may still be standing.
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: Rammers on Wednesday 25 May 16 21:23 BST (UK)
I'd like to know - his wife's maiden name - Hannah ?
- the date of George Hall's death
- any pictures of George and/or his dairy.

A lot to ask I know!  Thanks.
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: groom on Wednesday 25 May 16 21:25 BST (UK)
There was one child by 1881

RG11; Piece: 3695; Folio: 80; Page: 13;
8 Murat St
George Hall   35  Cow keeper
Hannah Hall   41
George A. Hall   8
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: lizdb on Wednesday 25 May 16 21:26 BST (UK)
So that child's birth cert would give Hannah's maiden name!
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: Rammers on Wednesday 25 May 16 21:32 BST (UK)
Yes, but I can't find her maiden name......
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: groom on Wednesday 25 May 16 21:35 BST (UK)
Sept 1872

HALL    George Alfred        W. Derby    8b   480   


IF this is the same one from Lancashire BMD, the mother's maiden name was Davies

1872
HALL   George Alfred   Great Crosby   South Sefton   DAVIES   C/11/33

http://lancashirebmd.org.uk/cgi/birthind.cgi
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: lizdb on Wednesday 25 May 16 21:36 BST (UK)
You will need to get the child's birth cert to find it.

We might need to do a bit more digging to get the right birth - but IF the middle initial A stands for Alfred, then this looks like it

Birth
Jul/Aug/Sep 1872
West Derby
8b 480
George Alfred Hall

(oooh, I see groom is one step ahead, and has found the Lancsbmd entry, I had forgotten about that)
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: lizdb on Wednesday 25 May 16 21:39 BST (UK)
MArriage

Jul/Aug/Sep 1868
St Asaph (Denbighshire)
11b 502
George Hall / on same page Hannah Davies
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: groom on Wednesday 25 May 16 21:40 BST (UK)
Possibly this marriage if Hannah was really just Ann although I don't think that covers where she says she was born in the 1871 census.


Marriages Jun 1870   
Bourne    Eliza        Merthyr T    11a   532      
Davies    Ann        Merthyr Tydfil    11a   532      
Hall    George        Merthyr T.    11a   532      
Protheroe    Benjamin        Merthyr T.    11a   532   

Ignore that, Liz's  is a much better one!
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: Rammers on Wednesday 25 May 16 21:40 BST (UK)
Thanks ever so much - will follow up the DAVIES surname.  Her son was George Alfred Hall b 1873.
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: Rammers on Wednesday 25 May 16 21:41 BST (UK)
I've a feeling that she came from Abergele.
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: groom on Wednesday 25 May 16 21:48 BST (UK)
Possible for second wife looking at the children's births, also from Lancashire BMD

   
HALL   Winifred Alice   Great Crosby   South Sefton   KNEEN   C/26/324
HALL   Marion   Great Crosby   South Sefton   KNEEN   C/24/420
HALL   Ernest Kneen   Great Crosby   South Sefton   KNEEN   C/29/239
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: lizdb on Wednesday 25 May 16 21:50 BST (UK)
And I have a feeling you know more about this family than you are letting on!!
How did you know that Hannah's son was George ALFRED Hall bn 1873, I thought we had only just discovered his existence and that was as George A Hall?
Why do you think Hannah came from Abergele? What info might you have that suggests this?
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: groom on Wednesday 25 May 16 21:50 BST (UK)
Their marriage

Marriages Jun 1892   
 
Hall    George        
Kneen    Elizabeth Ann       
W.Derby    8b   904      
 
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: Rammers on Wednesday 25 May 16 21:50 BST (UK)
This is definitely the second wife, Elizabeth Ann Kneen.
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: groom on Wednesday 25 May 16 21:52 BST (UK)
Do you already have this information as you don't seem surprised with what we are giving you?
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: Rammers on Wednesday 25 May 16 21:53 BST (UK)
I know that George Hall married Hannah ?, I don't know when. They had a son, George Alfred Hall.
I know George married Elizabeth Ann Kneen, but I don't know when he died.
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: lizdb on Wednesday 25 May 16 21:53 BST (UK)
MArriage

Apr/May/Jun 1892
West Derby
8b 904
George Hall and Elizabeth Ann Kneen on same page

....but have you got this?
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: groom on Wednesday 25 May 16 21:59 BST (UK)
We've now given you both marriages, but to know who their fathers were you need to buy the certificates from the GRO.

We know that George was alive in 1901, but we are not allowed to give information from the 1911, so you will need to look for yourself to see if he is still alive then. If he is, the problem is that George Hall is a common name, so his death may be difficult to find after that.
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: Rammers on Wednesday 25 May 16 22:01 BST (UK)
OK - many thanks for your advice.
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: lizdb on Wednesday 25 May 16 22:02 BST (UK)
If you are following any of his children, then you may find him recorded as "deceased" on a marriage cert, which will help you narrow down his year of death. Unfortunately it doesn't work the other way - ie if he is not specifically recorded as deceased it does not necessarily mean he is still alive!
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: groom on Wednesday 25 May 16 22:04 BST (UK)
A possible death as they were in West Derby - from Freebmd

George Hall
Birth :   abt 1846
Date of Registration:   Mar 1917
Age at Death:   71
Registration district:   West Derby  Lancashire
Volume:   8b  Page:   374
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: Rammers on Wednesday 25 May 16 22:08 BST (UK)
Thanks again.
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: ScouseBoy on Wednesday 25 May 16 22:11 BST (UK)
Possible cemetery could be St Lukes Church,  Crosby.
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: lizdb on Wednesday 25 May 16 22:12 BST (UK)
That is the right death that groom found!!

Probate index entry

George Hall of 8 Murat Street Waterloo near Liverpool dairyman and provender dealer died 12 Feb 1917 Probate to Elizabeth Ann Hall widow
Effects £1389 19s 7d


Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: ScouseBoy on Wednesday 25 May 16 22:16 BST (UK)
My grandparents could well have known the family, as they lived quite near to Murat Street.   In Argo Road, Waterloo.
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: lizdb on Wednesday 25 May 16 22:20 BST (UK)
Probate index entry

Elizabeth Ann Hall of 30 St Villiers Avenue Great Crosby widow died 2 July 1930 Probate to Marion Holmes (wife of Oswald Holmes) and Winifred ALice Wilson (wife of David Wilson)
Effects £4995 - 7s 10d  Resworn £4796 11s
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: Rammers on Wednesday 25 May 16 22:20 BST (UK)
Never thought of looking at probate details!

Could your family have known anything about the dairy?
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: lizdb on Wednesday 25 May 16 22:22 BST (UK)
Never thought of looking at probate details!

It only became an option once we had a possible death year.
Too many George Halls otherwise!
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: ScouseBoy on Wednesday 25 May 16 22:27 BST (UK)
Probate index entry

Elizabeth Ann Hall of 30 St Villiers Avenue Great Crosby widow died 2 July 1930 Probate to Marion Holmes (wife of Oswald Holmes) and Winifred ALice Wilson (wife of David Wilson)
Effects £4995 - 7s 10d  Resworn £4796 11s
Probably  should be DE Villiers Avenue, Crosby.

I used to live in De Villiers Avenue, very close to number 30
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: groom on Wednesday 25 May 16 22:29 BST (UK)
Well done Liz - another one solved ;)
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: Rammers on Wednesday 25 May 16 22:31 BST (UK)
Agreed!  My husband's family used to live in De Villiers Avenue.
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: lizdb on Wednesday 25 May 16 22:31 BST (UK)
Probate index entry

Elizabeth Ann Hall of 30 St Villiers Avenue Great Crosby widow died 2 July 1930 Probate to Marion Holmes (wife of Oswald Holmes) and Winifred ALice Wilson (wife of David Wilson)
Effects £4995 - 7s 10d  Resworn £4796 11s
Probably  should be DE Villiers Avenue, Crosby.

I used to live in De Villiers Avenue, very close to number 30

You are right, it is De Villiers Ave
Somehow changed to St between me reading it and my fingers typing it!!!!!
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: Rammers on Wednesday 25 May 16 22:32 BST (UK)
It's getting late!
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: lizdb on Wednesday 25 May 16 22:52 BST (UK)
So , we have found HAnnah's maiden name, and we've found George's death. All we have failed on is a photo of the dairy (assuming he had a dairy, and didn't just keep cows for some else, and trade in hay etc aswell)

Did you look at googlemaps?  Unless the road has been re-numbered, no 8 is a terraced house, but next door is numbered 8a, so maybe it used to be a larger house now divided?
Opposite on the other side of the road are garages - maybe that was fields in the days before everyone had a car, and thus was where the cows grazed, or maybe barns etc for hay storage.

Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: ScouseBoy on Thursday 26 May 16 07:15 BST (UK)
Murat street   was very near the beach.
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: ShaunJ on Thursday 26 May 16 16:36 BST (UK)
George Hall was to be buried at St Luke's on February 14th 1917 per the death announcement in the Liverpool Echo on 13 February.
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: Rammers on Thursday 26 May 16 16:41 BST (UK)
Thank you - I know where St Luke's is......
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: ShaunJ on Thursday 26 May 16 17:07 BST (UK)
Quote
Opposite on the other side of the road are garages - maybe that was fields in the days before everyone had a car, and thus was where the cows grazed, or maybe barns etc for hay storage.

All those garages and garden walls on the other side of Murat Street belong to the big houses on Adelaide Terrace.

Looking at an old map it looks like there could have been some pasture land behind Murat Street, on the corner of Picton Road and Wellington Street, on the site now occupied by the Church of Christ.


Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: ScouseBoy on Thursday 26 May 16 18:13 BST (UK)
George Hall was to be buried at St Luke's on February 14th 1917 per the death announcement in the Liverpool Echo on 13 February.
  If you visit the cemetery office,  you could ask to see the  register for that  year,   and then you could find the reference number of the plot he is in.  Some of my family are in St Lukes Cemetery.
Title: Re: Liverpool cowkeeper
Post by: Rammers on Thursday 26 May 16 18:32 BST (UK)
Will do!