RootsChat.Com

England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cumberland => Topic started by: cp on Monday 23 May 16 21:17 BST (UK)

Title: Sarah Goves
Post by: cp on Monday 23 May 16 21:17 BST (UK)
Quick question. I am trying to establish the maiden name of Sarah Richardson who married Thomas Richardson.
I have found her in 1881 in Whitehaven with her husband and what appeared to be her son (listed as his step-son) Richard Groves.
I have also got a copy of their daughters birth cert which says her mother is Sarah Richardson, late Groves formally Waterfall.
However the only marriage I can find a marriage between a Richard Groves & Sarah Bates via others trees on Ancestry but nothing between a Richard Groves and Sarah Waterfall.
I have then found a marriage between Sarah Groves & Thomas Richardson 1865 Jul-Aug-Sept Whitehaven 10b  767.

I was about to send for the marriage cert but thought I would ask you clever people here ... is that the only way to establish her father's name?
Thanks for any help :-)
Title: Re: Sarah Goves
Post by: keyboard86 on Monday 23 May 16 21:41 BST (UK)
Hi I see by 1871 Richard Groves aged 7 is again Stepson with Sarah Richardson 28 occ Mariners wife with a Mary Ann Richardson 2 and John 8 months
Residing at Howgill Street Whitehaven
Census ref RG10/5253/15/24
Keyboard86
Title: Re: Sarah Goves
Post by: cp on Monday 23 May 16 21:59 BST (UK)
Thanks,  that does look like telling same family. Interestingly her husband Thomas is not there but Richard is still listed as step-son.
Title: Re: Sarah Goves
Post by: keyboard86 on Monday 23 May 16 22:15 BST (UK)
Hi I can see possibly why some trees have Sarah as a Bates, as I note in 1871 Sarah was born in Wales, in 1861 their is a Sarah Bates 19 occ Servant b Denbighshire in Whitehaven
Census ref RG09/3945/64/7
Keyboard86
Title: Re: Sarah Goves
Post by: cp on Monday 23 May 16 22:32 BST (UK)
Yes that does make sense.  Sadly it does not make sense with the wording on her daughter's birth cert as it does not mention Bates?
Maybe Sarah Bates married Mr Waterfall, then married Richard Groves, then married Thomas Richardson but it does seem unlikely.
I think I will have to order the marriage cert and see who her dad was.
Title: Re: Sarah Goves
Post by: Mabel Bagshawe on Monday 23 May 16 22:45 BST (UK)
What about this person on 1851? In barracks in Tynemouth

James Waterfall    38 - sgt 33rd regt, b Ireland
Mary Waterfall    29 - b Carlisle
Sarah Waterfall    10 - b Wales, Wrexham [?]
William Waterfall    4 - b Blackburn
Elizabeth Waterfall    5 - b Halifax
Louisa Waterfall    1 - b Halifax

HO107, 2410, 398, 21

Trying to trace her and family forward
Title: Re: Sarah Goves
Post by: Mabel Bagshawe on Monday 23 May 16 22:54 BST (UK)
1861 - in St Bees

James B Waterfall    48 - staff sergeant Royal Cumberland Militia, b Belper
Mary Ann B Waterfall    40 - b Carlisle
Eliza Ann B Waterfall    14 - b Halifax
Lousia B Waterfall    12 - b Halifax
Henrietta B Waterfall    8 - b Salford
John J B Waterfall    3 - b Whitehaven

RG 9, 3946, 5, 3

Ancestry's "helpful" links are suggesting a Bates connection (which may be the B in all the names) which might lead to Sarah Bates [Waterfall] ???
Title: Re: Sarah Goves
Post by: lizdb on Monday 23 May 16 22:58 BST (UK)
Cant see a Waterfall birth, but there is:

Birth
Jan/Feb/Mar 1842
Wrexham
27 312
Sarah Bates
Title: Re: Sarah Goves
Post by: Mabel Bagshawe on Monday 23 May 16 23:01 BST (UK)
Similarly - no Henrietta Waterfall birth, but there is a Henrietta Bates b Salford 1853!

I think James uses two surnames
Title: Re: Sarah Goves
Post by: Mabel Bagshawe on Monday 23 May 16 23:04 BST (UK)
Eliza Ann Bates - baptised Halifax Oct 23 1846. parents James and Mary Ann

James is a soldier in HM 33rd regiment  infantry!
Title: Re: Sarah Goves
Post by: keyboard86 on Monday 23 May 16 23:18 BST (UK)
Hi all,  Baptism Sarah Bates 23rd February 1842 Wrexham Father James occ Sergeant of 33rd of Foot Mother Mary Ann
Keyboard86
Title: Re: Sarah Goves
Post by: lizdb on Tuesday 24 May 16 07:54 BST (UK)
1871
Barracks, Whitehaven
James B Waterfall  58 widower, Hospital serj in Cumberland Militia bn Derbyshire Belper
John J Waterfall 13 Gentlemans servan bn Whitehaven
Henrietta 18 dressmaker bn Lancashire Salford


Death
Oct/Nov/Dec 1847
Whitehaven
10b 379
Mary Ann B Waterfall
age 46

1881
Michael Str Whitehaven
John J Bates 23 Printer compositor bn Whitehaven
Margaret 23 wife bn Carlisle
James Waterfall 68 Widower Chelsea Pensioner bn Derbyshire Belper

James Waterfall died 1886
Title: Re: Sarah Goves
Post by: trish1120 on Tuesday 24 May 16 15:17 BST (UK)
James Bates Waterfall
United Kingdom, Chelsea Pensioners' Service Records, 1760-1913
birth: 1813 Derbyshire
pension:United Kingdom
Title: Re: Sarah Goves
Post by: keyboard86 on Tuesday 24 May 16 17:15 BST (UK)
Hi again, the Service Record of James Bates Waterfall is on FindMyPast b BILPER 1813
Interesting reading!

A possible for James/Mary in 1841 Census :-

In a mixed household, James Waterfall 25 occ Army Not born in County
Mary Waterfall 20 Not born in County
Residing Northgate Street, Boughton Great, Cheshire
Census ref HO107/130/ 10/12 / 18
Keyboard86
Title: Re: Sarah Goves
Post by: cp on Wednesday 25 May 16 13:01 BST (UK)
I am just doing a quick reply to thank you all for helping with this. I am work at the moment so have not got my files with me but I just wanted to make sure you all know how grateful I am.

It would appear that James was James Bates Waterfall and his surname was interchangeable?  He chose to register his children as Bates but list them on  the census return as Waterfall.

The other curious thing is if the death of of Sarah that lizdb found is correct then some of his children had a different mother as they were born after 1847?

I have just taken a months subscription for FindMyPast and seen the army record for James, looks like he enjoyed a wee dram keyboard86,  but at least it does show his full name.

Thanks again to all your time
Title: Re: Sarah Goves
Post by: keyboard86 on Wednesday 25 May 16 13:21 BST (UK)
Hi again,  I think you will find the death of Mary Ann B Waterfall was 1867 not 1847!
Keyboard86
Title: Re: Sarah Goves
Post by: trish1120 on Wednesday 25 May 16 13:40 BST (UK)
Marriage Reg,
Dec 1839, Settle, 23 547
James BATES and Mary Ann JOHNSON on same page

From Familysearch.Org;
Mariage 28 October 1839, Clapham, Yorkshire
James Bates to Mary Ann Johnson

Now I think the M/C is a must if you want to go back any further with Benjamin.

As for Mary Ann, possible;
MARY ANN Johnson Christened 11 May 1820, Greystoke, Cumberland
Parents RALPH/ANN
Siblings;
ELEANOR, 18 May 1811
JANE, 10 March 1813, Buried 20 Jan 1820
JOHN, 14 March 1818
JUDITH, 29 June 1823

Eleanors has Mothers name as Ann TODD, which leads to this Child Christened Skelton to Ralph/Ann Johnson/e nee Todd;
GEORGE, 22 March 1808

Marriage;
8 June 1807, Greystoke, Ralph JOHNSTONE to Ann TODD

The reason I chose this one is that keyboard86 found a 1841 Census for James/Mary Waterfall in Cheshire.

1841 Census has a JUDITH Johnson, Servant, age 20, living in Stockport, Cheshire.
She is not born in County.

Also John Johnson 1818 Greystoke is Widowed and living in Durham in 1851. His Children are born Northumberland.

Worth noting if M/C has Mary Ann Father as Ralph
Title: Re: Sarah Goves
Post by: cp on Wednesday 25 May 16 18:52 BST (UK)
Thanks keyboard86 you are quite correct about the death year ...phew.

Thank you so much trish1120 for all this research ...I will start ordering certs, just don'the tell the hubby :-)
Title: Re: Sarah Goves
Post by: keyboard86 on Wednesday 25 May 16 19:03 BST (UK)
Hi the 1839 marriage shows:-

James Bates Full Age occ Labourer Father James Bates occ Labourer
Mary Ann Johnson Minor Father William Johnson occ Labourer
Both residing Austwick
28th October 1839 Clapham. Yorkshire
Keyboard86
Title: Re: Sarah Goves
Post by: keyboard86 on Wednesday 25 May 16 20:25 BST (UK)
Hi again, I think William in 1851 was perhaps b c 1845:-

William Henry Bates June qtr 1844 Blackburn 21 23

In 1861 he is William Waterfall aged 17 b Blackburn occ Drummer in Cumberland Militia at Barracks 22, Irish Street, St Bees, Whitehaven
Census ref RG09/3946/7/7

He marries as William H Bates to Dorah C Humphreys March qtr 1866 Whitehaven 10b 751

In 1871 he reverts to Waterfall
Census ref RG10/5256/39/28

In 1881 RG11/5186/113/8 back to Bates
Keyboard86
Title: Re: Sarah Goves
Post by: keyboard86 on Wednesday 25 May 16 21:36 BST (UK)
Hi again,  I think you will find the death of Mary Ann B Waterfall was 1867 not 1847!
Keyboard86

Hi again that tree you have possibly been comparing notes with have Mary Ann's death as 27th October 1867 Barracks, Irish Street, Whitehaven death by Phthisis & Pneumonia
They also believe that the 1839 marriage above is the correct one?!
Keyboard86
Title: Re: Sarah Goves
Post by: trish1120 on Wednesday 25 May 16 22:49 BST (UK)
Just checking in before Work!

Well Keyboard86 has saved you some money :)

Si Father is not Ralph.

Back tonight,
Trish
Title: Re: Sarah Goves
Post by: keyboard86 on Wednesday 25 May 16 22:52 BST (UK)
Just checking in before Work!

Well Keyboard86 has saved you some money :)

Si Father is not Ralph.

Back tonight,
Trish

 ;D That is assuming her surname is Johnson?!

Think you need possibly one of the children's birth certificates?

Although LancsBMD Have William Henry Bates as mmn JOHNSTON
Keyboard86
Title: Re: Sarah Goves
Post by: trish1120 on Thursday 26 May 16 13:39 BST (UK)
Very true a Childs Birth Cert would have been the best starting point.
Title: Re: Sarah Goves
Post by: cp on Friday 27 May 16 18:24 BST (UK)
Hi again,

Sorry I have been away, real life keeps interrupting my searching :-(

Thanks again for all your research. I have found a copy of a Sarah Bates birth cert attached to a tree on ancestry, unfortunately it is very small and difficult to read. However I am pretty sure that it says Father James Bates and mother Mary Ann Johnson. That is what the tree owner has listed the parents as. I have sent a message to the owner.

I will go ahead and order the marriage cert of Sarah Groves & Thomas Richardson. I think this is the only way I can be sure that the birth cert the other tree holder has is the same Sarah.

Sarah's daughter's birth cert said mother - Sarah Richardson, late Groves, formally Waterfall so I am keen to see who Sarah listed as her father on her marriage and I am happy that this Sarah is the correct one.

I have attached a copy of Mary Ann Richardson's birth cert and the small copy of Sarah's birth cert.