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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: LambFran on Monday 16 May 16 10:05 BST (UK)
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Hi
I wonder if anyone can help, I am trying to trace William and Ellen Lamb.
I know that William Lamb was born around 1863 in Grafham, Surrey and died 1936 Burghfield, Berkshire. His wife Ellen is also buried in Burghfield.
I have them both on the 1911 Census at Swallowfield, Berkshire where Ellen's birthplace is recorded as Binstead, Hampshire.
I do not know for sure what Ellen's maiden name was but think it may possibly have been Rose?
I have found a marriage between a William Carey (Lamb) and Ellen Rose in Grafham St Andrew Parish records dated 1891. William Carey's father is recorded as George Lamb and Ellen's father is recorded as Charles Rose. Witnesses were Edward Lamb and Mary Ann Rose but that's all the information I have been able to find so far.
I have read Eric Trudgill's excellent article on Isaac Lamb. All the Lamb's in his article are in the right area's of Surrey & Hampshire but I have not yet found any connection between the Lamb's in my tree to the Isaac Lamb Tree.
Any help would be great as I can't seem to trace this line of my tree back any further than William & Ellen.
Thanks
:)
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Hi I would say the marriage you found in 1891 is the correct one ( gipsies )
Just so the others can see this looks like them in the 1901 census Dwelling in a tent Bramley Surrey
William Carey ( not Lamb ) age 37 travelling tinman b Epsom
Ellen Carey 35 b Binstead
Alice 16.Louisa 14,James 12,Jane 10,William 8, George 6,Mary Ann 4,Edward2
All surnames Carey
1881 census Gypsies tent Bramley Surrey
Thomas Carey b 1813 Berkshire widower tinman
William Carey age 16 Ag Lab b Epsom Grandson
Rosie
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1881 Census Chertsey,Chobham,The Folley, Chobham,Surrey
LAMB, George, Head, Widower, 1833, no occuupation, Gipsies, Not Given.
LAMB, Mary Ann, Dau, Single, 1868, no occuupation, Gipsies, Not Given.
LAMB, Edward, Son, Single, 1870, no occuupation, Gipsies, Not Given.
LAMB, George, Son, Single, 1872, no occuupation, Gipsies , Not Given.
LAMB, Isaace, Son, Single, 1874, no occuupation, Gipsies, Not Given.
This Lamb family has an Edward Lamb and a George Lamb
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Hi Rosie
Thank you very much, you're a star :)
The 1901 census is definitely William & Ellen. The children's names match what I had been given by older members of the family. Because I had found them under the name of Lamb on the 1911 census I had been assuming Carey was a middle name. I will now search both Lamb and Carey surnames, although that makes my tree even more complicated haha! But at least I now know they used the Carey surname too and can go back another generation with Thomas.
Thank you, very much appreciated :)
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Your welcome have not had much luck in finding family on earlier census forms you can try google for some of the gipsie camps ...The family that whiteout posted looks good
Rosie
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1881 Census Chertsey,Chobham,The Folley, Chobham,Surrey
LAMB, George, Head, Widower, 1833, no occuupation, Gipsies, Not Given.
LAMB, Mary Ann, Dau, Single, 1868, no occuupation, Gipsies, Not Given.
LAMB, Edward, Son, Single, 1870, no occuupation, Gipsies, Not Given.
LAMB, George, Son, Single, 1872, no occuupation, Gipsies , Not Given.
LAMB, Isaace, Son, Single, 1874, no occuupation, Gipsies, Not Given.
This Lamb family has an Edward Lamb and a George Lamb
Hi,
Thank you very much for your reply, very much appreciated :)
I had looked at this record as this is one that ties-in with the Isaac Lamb Tree in the Eric Trudgill article but I had dismissed a connection to my tree because there wasn't a William. However, the previous reply from Rosie has highlighted that William was using the surname Carey and was with his grandfather Thomas Carey in 1881. So this would explain why no William with his father George Lamb on 1881 Census. It certainly looks like it is William's father because the other children's names tie-in with the siblings I have. I will double-check the information on my tree but this definitely looks good and even better, will give me a link to the Isaac Lamb Tree.
Thank you :)
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Your welcome have not had much luck in finding family on earlier census forms you can try google for some of the gipsie camps ...The family that whiteout posted looks good
Rosie
Hi Rosie
Thank you. Yes, I'm going to look into the family Whiteout sent me, it does look good, and if William was with his grandfather Thomas and using the Carey surname, it would explain why he wasn't with his father George Lamb on 1881 census. This family also links into the Isaac Lamb Tree article by Eric Trudgill, so would be great.
Looks like I was nearly a Carey instead of a Lamb haha!
Thanks once again :)
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Have just came across Edward Lamb and Mary Anne Rose in later census can't post details but looks like they married in later years
Rosie
Should have added same names as the witnesses on the marriage certificate
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Do you have access to ancestry ? A family tree with a photo of Mary Ann Rose and Edward Lamb try were also gipsies ..Look for Mary Ann Rose born 1873 Wimbourne Dorset also some photos of their family
Rosie
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Hi Rosie
Thanks for this.
I have been building my tree on Ancestry and have seen this Edward Lamb & Mary Ann Rose. This Edward is the son of George Lamb and Bridget Cullen.
I think there must be a connection more than just a coincidence that these are the two same names being witnesses to William Carey's marriage and a George Lamb being named as William Carey's father on the marriage certificate.
George & Bridget are on the 1871 Census with daur Mary Ann but no William.
I'm going to try researching the possibility George may be William Carey/Lamb's father but perhaps Bridget is not William's mother and George had a relationship with a daur of Thomas Carey before marrying Bridget.
Thanks very much for your help & time on this.
I won't be around tomorrow but will get back asap later in the week.
Many thanks,
:)
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Yes would say William Carey was the son of George Lamb and The daughter of Thomas Carey before his marriage to Bridget Cullen .. The problem is trying to find them in the 1871 census ???
Rosie
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Strong possibility Lemontaney Carey ?? married to a Joseph Parker b 1846 Epsom might be worth checking out
Lemon Taney Carey birth date 6/8/1849 baptism 19/8/1849
Colnbrook Buckingham does say male but female in other census records
Father Thomas mother Caroline
Rosie
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Hi Rosie
Apologies for delay in replying, have had a busy couple of days and not much spare time to do research.
I will definitely check this one out.
I have found Alice Carey with a little help from Eric Trudgill research :) Alice was baptised "Cairy" in 1840 to Thomas & Caroline. I'm going to start researching the Carey tree. I haven't yet found a marriage between Alice Carey and George Lamb but there is another Carey/Lamb marriage in extended family in the next generation.
There are 2 further baptisms in Surrey for Albert & John both to George & Alice Lamb so will look a bit further into them too to see if they pop-up on a census somewhere.
Many thanks Rosie :)
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There is also a burial record for a Alice Carey 31 October 1865 age 25 Cove St John Yately Surrey
Rosie
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Hi Rosie
Thank you. I have been looking on Ancestry for a burial record and hadn't seen this one. George Lamb married Bridget Cullen in 1868 so I think this makes it even more likely Alice was his first wife and Bridget his 2nd.
Alice has 2 brothers, Thomas & John, with marriages and baptising children in the Surrey records so I'm going to go back through the records to see if I can find a marriage for Alice & George.
Many thanks Rosie, much appreciated :)
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I don't think George Lamb was married to William Carey's mother if it was Alice ? The only thing now would. be to find the birth for William ???
Rosie
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Hi Rosie
The record I have found is a baptism in Chessington, Surrey, 2nd April 1865 for William Lamb to parents George and Alice but I guess they may not have married, although the burial record for Alice records her name as Lamb.
I have found Alice's two brothers marriages in Surrey so was hopeful that she would have had a marriage ceremony there too. I have been looking around the 1858-9 records, partly because her age would have been about 19/20 plus the first baptism record I found was for Albert Lamb in Horsell, Surrey dated 11th Dec 1859 to parents George and Alice. The second baptism is John Lamb in Chessington, Surrey dated 13 Jul 1862. William would have been the youngest born in 1865 and then there is the burial record for Alice Lamb in October 1865, the Ancestry records place this as being Farnborough, Surrey but Cove & Yateley are very near so all in the same district.
I have been looking through the census for Albert and John Lamb. So far I have found one record for a Albert - not convinced it's the right Albert - but he is in the Army in 1891 & married to a Louisa Maude (nee Cartwright) so will try to find their marriage certificate to check what this Albert's father's name is to either confirm or eliminate him.
Sorry, I'm beginning to waffle now :-\
so many records to check & I often go off on a tangent when looking for one record and find another haha! but I love it.
Thanks Rosie :)
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Think the burial record is for Alice Carey ? or is there another one maybe you should order the death certificate to see what information is on it
Rosie :)
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Hi Rosie
ah! yes, my mistake, the burial record is for Alice Carey not Lamb but I think I will order the death certificate to see what details are on there. I will order the birth certificate for William too. It does look likely that Alice & George weren't married so I will stop looking for a marriage record and wait to see what information I can get from the death & birth certificates. I'm confident there is a connection between William & George the son of Isaac Lamb because Edward Lamb & Mary Ann Rose are witnesses on his marriage to Ellen Rose but once I get the certificates back, I'll let you know what information they give, hopefully I can confirm if I have got the correct George for William's father.
many thanks for your help with this Rosie, hugely appreciated :)
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Your welcome keep us posted be interested how it all turns out
Rosie