RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: jupiter1 on Sunday 08 May 16 04:26 BST (UK)
-
FACT
I have been looking for years for a little girl known as Vickie (Vicky, Victoria?).
She was probably a still birth or born alive and died almost immediately there after.
Parents were Lillie (nee CONNAH) and Alfred Ernest MATHEW.
Lillie was born 31Jan1887 in Buxton, Derbyshire, and Baptised 27-2-1887.
Albert Ernest Born 31-July- 1879 at Mile End, baptized 4-Sept-1884 at St Pauls, Shadwell, Tower Hamlets.
Lillie CONNAH Married Alfred Ernest MATHEW at Mile End 1905/Q4 ref 1C706a
SPECULATION
Lillie married Mathew (a travelling musician) as the result of a pregnancy. Is this the elusive Vickie?
FACT
Vickie would have been born in the period about 1905/Q1 to 1906/Q4 or possibly as late as 1909/Q1 when Lillie's second daughter (Ruth Janette) was conceived though this later period is unlikely.
During this time this couple were living at Lillie's mother's house at 11Jupps Rd. Mile End.
There is no record of the birth or death of Vickie MATHEW (or CONNAH) in the BDM registers.
To confuse matters Lillie continued to live at Jupps Rd (as a bigamously married couple) with William Henry FLEMING from about 1909 so Vickie could have been under the surname Fleming, though this is very unlikely. (See 1911 census below for this address)
I have attempted to search the "Burial records" on several occasions but have all ways got "no records" or adverts for books.
I am un-familiar with these burial records so I am probably doing something wrong.
Any assistance or information with this issue will be very much appreciated.
1911 Census for CONNAH
Address is 11 Jupps Road the census reference is RG14 Piece 1630 RG78PN57 RD21 SD2 ED14 SN119.
Name Relation Yrs married Sex Age Birth Year Occupation Where Born
CONNAH, Mary Ruth Head Married 30 years F 50 1861 Manchester
FLEMING, William Henry Son In Law Married M 26 1885 Butchers Assistant Bethnal Green
FLEMING, Lillie Daughter Married 4 years F 24 1887 Buxton Derbyshire
FLEMING, Ruth Janette Granddaughter Single F 1y5m 1910 London Hospital
CONNAH, Arthur Son Single M 20 1891 Labourer General Leyton Essex
CONNAH, Herbert Son Single F 17 1894 Labourer General Leyton Essex
FLEMING Granddaughter F 0 (3 DAYS) 1911 Mile End
1911 Census for MATHEWS
Living at 16 South Grove, Bow East, Mile End, London.
Frances mother wid 68 Aldermaston, Berkshire. B c1843
Alfred Ernest son unm 30 Mile End Travelling Musician B c1879
Florence Maud dau unm 29 Mile End Cook in dining rooms B c1882
-
jupiter1,
I think 'still births' were not recorded so there would not be a registration...if the baby didn't take a breath then the baby was still birth.
Yonks
-
The Stillbirth Register only started in 1927 (England & Wales).
Before then there are no official records.
RootsChatter Guy Etchells has some stillbirths on his website:
http://anguline.co.uk/stillbirths.html
Might be worth a look?
-
FACT
I have been looking for years for a little girl known as Vickie (Vicky, Victoria?).
She was probably a still birth or born alive and died almost immediately there after.
Parents were Lillie (nee CONNAH) and Alfred Ernest MATHEW.
Lillie was born 31Jan1887 in Buxton, Derbyshire, and Baptised 27-2-1887.
Albert Ernest Born 31-July- 1879 at Mile End, baptized 4-Sept-1884 at St Pauls, Shadwell, Tower Hamlets.
Lillie CONNAH Married Alfred Ernest MATHEW at Mile End 1905/Q4 ref 1C706a
Do you have a copy of this marriage or are you assuming this is the correct Lillie?
Is Lillie’s address given as Jupps Road?
Do the fathers’ names tie in?
Do you know when Lillie Connah moved to “London”?
SPECULATION
Lillie married Mathew (a travelling musician) as the result of a pregnancy. Is this the elusive Vickie?
FACT
Vickie would have been born in the period about 1905/Q1 to 1906/Q4 or possibly as late as 1909/Q1 when Lillie's second daughter (Ruth Janette) was conceived though this later period is unlikely.
During this time this couple were living at Lillie's mother's house at 11Jupps Rd. Mile End.
There is no record of the birth or death of Vickie MATHEW (or CONNAH) in the BDM registers.
What is you source for Vickie, is this a family story? Are you certain that any child was a girl?
There is a Alfred Victor Mathew showing on the deaths register June 1906, West Ham, 4a, 15
To confuse matters Lillie continued to live at Jupps Rd (as a bigamously married couple) with William Henry FLEMING from about 1909 so Vickie could have been under the surname Fleming, though this is very unlikely. (See 1911 census below for this address)
What makes you think they were living as a bigamously married couple?
There is a marriage on FreeBMD for
Marriages Jun 1919
Connah, Lillie, Fleming, St. Geo. H. Sq., 1a, 1293
Could this be them?
I have attempted to search the "Burial records" on several occasions but have all ways got "no records" or adverts for books.
I am un-familiar with these burial records so I am probably doing something wrong.
Any assistance or information with this issue will be very much appreciated.
1911 Census for CONNAH
Address is 11 Jupps Road the census reference is RG14 Piece 1630 RG78PN57 RD21 SD2 ED14 SN119.
Name Relation Yrs married Sex Age Birth Year Occupation Where Born
CONNAH, Mary Ruth Head Married 30 years F 50 1861 Manchester
FLEMING, William Henry Son In Law Married M 26 1885 Butchers Assistant Bethnal Green
FLEMING, Lillie Daughter Married 4 years F 24 1887 Buxton Derbyshire
FLEMING, Ruth Janette Granddaughter Single F 1y5m 1910 London Hospital
CONNAH, Arthur Son Single M 20 1891 Labourer General Leyton Essex
CONNAH, Herbert Son Single F 17 1894 Labourer General Leyton Essex
FLEMING Granddaughter F 0 (3 DAYS) 1911 Mile End
1911 Census for MATHEWS
Living at 16 South Grove, Bow East, Mile End, London.
Frances mother wid 68 Aldermaston, Berkshire. B c1843
Alfred Ernest son unm 30 Mile End Travelling Musician B c1879
Florence Maud dau unm 29 Mile End Cook in dining rooms B c1882
If this Alfred Ernest Mathew (Street Musician not Travelling Musician) is the Alfred Ernest Matthew who married Lillie Connah in 1905 why is he shown as unmarried on the 1911 census?
Not impossible but it does raise the question.
Cheers
Guy
-
Do you have a copy of this marriage or are you assuming this is the correct Lillie?
Is Lillie’s address given as Jupps Road?
Do the fathers’ names tie in?
Do you know when Lillie Connah moved to “London”?
ErrorSPAM
REPORT THIS POST AS SPAM (Use 'Report to Moderator'). DO NOT CLICK ON ANY LINKS IN THIS POST. DO NOT REPLY TO THIS PERSON.
]Yes I do have a copy of the marriage.
Yes, Jupps Rd.
Yes, fathers name ties in.
Just before the 1901 census.[/color][/color]
What is you source for Vickie, is this a family story? Are you certain that any child was a girl?
There is a Alfred Victor Mathew showing on the deaths register June 1906, West Ham, 4a, 15
Lillie was my maternal grand mother. She talked on occasions about her daughter Vickie.
Alfred Victor not the person that married Lillie. My Mathew is….
Albert Ernest
Born 31-July- 1879 at Mile End. Living at 20 South Grove, Mile End.
Married Lillie CONNAH c1905/4 at Stepney
Children None confirmed. Probably Victoria, (Vickie ?).
Died 1943/3 at Stepney ref 1C100 age 64. Was living at 16 South Grove Mile end at the time of the taking of the 1939 electrol roll.
Occupation Travelling musician, later Ships pantryman.
What makes you think they were living as a bigamously married couple?
There is a marriage on FreeBMD for
Marriages Jun 1919
Connah, Lillie, Fleming, St. Geo. H. Sq., 1a, 1293
Yes, that marriage is to Wlm Hnry, see below.
At 1911 census Lillie Shown as married to Wlm Hnry. Devoice not available to "commoners" in 1911. Albert E didn't die until 1943.
Lillie married Wlm Hnry 1919 bigamously and went on to have a son in 1920.
If this Alfred Ernest Mathew (Street Musician not Travelling Musician) is the Alfred Ernest Matthew who married Lillie Connah in 1905 why is he shown as unmarried on the 1911 census?
Not impossible but it does raise the question.
Lillie, and presumably Alfred, (possibly in collusion), were both very liberal with the truth.
I and my parents lived with Lillie and Wlm Hnry for over 14 years.
Most of the info that I have was confirmed very shortly after Wlm Hnry's funeral.
-
"At 1911 census Lillie Shown as married to Wlm Hnry. Devoice not available to "commoners" in 1911. Albert E didn't die until 1943."
Divorce was available; my 2xgt.aunt got a divorce in 1904, she was considered as a "poor person" by the legal system and no fees to pay (I think).
-
we've been here before
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=485988.0
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=741007.0
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=728531.0
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=687481.0
-
Isn't it damned annoying when posters kindly omit to mention that they have posted on the same subject before?! >:(
Another RC'er added to my list of people I refuse to help in future.
-
"At 1911 census Lillie Shown as married to Wlm Hnry. Devoice not available to "commoners" in 1911. Albert E didn't die until 1943."
Divorce was available; my 2xgt.aunt got a divorce in 1904, she was considered as a "poor person" by the legal system and no fees to pay (I think).
I agree
My grandmother's cousin got divorced in 1905 -- she also came under whatever the legal classification is that meant she did not have to pay legal fees
-
Refer "Dawnsh" above
Over the past 28 years or more I have been trying to find this Vickie who would have been an Aunt to me.
In doing so I have followed many erroneous paths hence the links shown above by Dawnsh.
I thank Dawnsh for her help on those occasions but make no apology for them to others !
DIVORCE
An academic Roy Stockton investigated a number of cases of bigamy in Victorian times, and had articles published on the subject, he believed that bigamous marriages were far more common in those days than is generally believed. The reason was that most ordinary people couldn't afford otherwise.
An extract from his articles follows…..
Until 1858 it was only possible to get a divorce by bringing a private Act of Parliament. And for many years after that one had to be pretty well- heeled. Divorce didn't become more easily accessible for ordinary people until the late 1920s when legal aid came in. But even then there was a period of waiting between what was called the decree nisi and the degree absolute, during which time the authorities investigated and if there was any suggestion of collusion between the parties, then the divorce was rescinded.
"End extract"
I have searched the divorce records. There is no record of Lillie or Alfred Ernest ever getting a divorce.
I have all the BDM records for this side of my family along with the appropriate BDM certs.
Local burial records appear to be my last chance of finding this girls records but so far I have made no progress with searching them.
There is a very intriguing story behind this Vickie and her family which only came to light on my maternal Grnd. Father's death. It is important to me for this reason if none other.
-
Refer "Dawnsh" above
Over the past 28 years or more I have been trying to find this Vickie who would have been an Aunt to me.
In doing so I have followed many erroneous paths hence the links shown above by Dawnsh.
I thank Dawnsh for her help on those occasions but make no apology for them to others !
Good to see this is your attitude, it makes deciding not to bother helping far easier.
You start a thread with a title Still birth records ??? but we later find out in another thread http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=485988 you already have photographs of the person possibly still born.
You then insult those who have tried to help by trying ascertaining what you know or what you may have assumed with the words “I thank Dawnsh for her help on those occasions but make no apology for them to others !”
You also claim Lillie CONNAH and William Henry FLEMING were a bigamously married couple but agree the 1919 marriage ref I gave is for them.
That means for the period up until 1919 the were not a bigamously married couple as the law stands in England for Lillie CONNAH and William Henry FLEMING to be in a bigamous marriage she would have to have know for the previous seven years either he was in the UK and still alive or he was overseas where he could be alive or dead when they married but you claim (in http://www.rootschat.com/links/01hlo/ ) he was dead in 1919.
That means the marriage was not bigamous.
Cheers
Guy
-
Jupiter1
I didn't print the list of previous topics to admonish you but to show the others willing to help that we have covered these scenarios before and nothing in the way of new information is brought to the forum. Your response to that was not in the spirit of Rootschat when you are asking for our help.
I have briefly reviewed all 92 of your previous posts to see if there is anything that may have been missed before or perhaps anything that has become available online since.
I realise that you are posting here with the knowledge that some of your family members may be watching your topics.
In fact a family member did try to correspond with you online here in 2012
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=599638.msg4708941#msg4708941
looking at the rest of the topic you didn't acknowledge their correspondence openly, maybe you already knew of them and corresponded privately, we can't tell.
Is there any chance that the child mentioned in reply #23 as Cissie is Vickie? You haven't mentioned what happened to her or her sibling Ruth.
You also mention you have a photo of the elusive missing child, you haven't posted that here so we are unable to give an opinion as to her age at the time of the photo and the date of the photo.
On a previous topic you posted a photo of a lady wearing clothes which eventually pre-dated your perception ie WW1 instead of WW2.
I realise that you may be frustrated by being so far away from London and look to chatters here for help. It is however a well known fact that you can't do everything on the internet. For example:
Lillie and Alfred may have separated and obtained a decree nisi but never made it absolute, there would be no record of this.
The church where Lillie and Alfred married in 1905 was destroyed during WW2 along with the registers 1872-1931 so any chance of finding baptisms there are long gone.
There are very few churchyard burials in London after 1855, you would need to contact all the cemeteries in the area to see if there is a burial but without a date of birth, death or exact name, the chances of an entry being located is small. Only a small percentage of municipal cemetery burials for London and its environs are online at www.deceasedonline.com but the number does grow occasionally.
You say that you have looked for a divorce. It would appear that Lillie certainly portrayed herself as a widow in 1919 but used her maiden surname on her marriage cert?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=599638.msg4493130#msg4493130
that topic was to establish the death of her 1st husband, did you ever purchase the 1943 death certificate following on from replies 11, 12 & 18 (I can't tell). If you didn't then a look at the 1939 register for the address mentioned may help you resolve the issue.
As one who trys to help, the lack of links back to previous topics is frustrating when it is announced/discovered that what we are posting isn't 'new' and known to you.
As to resolving issues of long standing, I had one from 2000 until 2015 when the asylum indexes went online and discovered by chance more than anything else that my person of interest had died, the death was registered with a variant spelling and in a district that the family had no links to so had been overlooked as a potential.