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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Chatwood2016 on Saturday 30 April 16 11:06 BST (UK)
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Hello am desperately seeking any information on the above individual AGNES MARKESKY (MARKOWSKY) who I believe used the second name of CLEE on her children's birth certificates.
She is living as wife (though I believe not married) with ARTHUR LEONARD MOTTRAM in Blackpool and environs on the 1911 Census. She had three children with Arthur that I know of, NORA EILEEN born 1906, IVY born 1908, HAROLD born 1910.
This seems a very complicated and fractured family who I am researching on behalf of my son's girlfriend.
NORA EILEEN is her great grandmother. She married PATRICK BRUCE in Belfast in 1922 and had two sons.
She left Patrick, and formed a relationship with WILLIAM RAMSEY RUSSELL with whom she had two daughters. The family know very little of her life. She never married WILLIAM RAMSEY. PATRICK BRUCE died in 1949.
For some reason NORA adopts the second name of MOORE. She is recorded under this name on the 1939 Register, the right birth date of July 20, but the wrong year. She, her four children and WILLIAM RUSSELL settle in LEICESTER. She died in 1993, (again correct birth date wrong year).
Through Ancestry I have discovered that her brother HAROLD married a girl from Tipperary and settled in IPSWICH.
I have no idea when the estrangement happened between Agnes and Arthur Leonard MOTTRAM. But he marries SYLVIA DILLON in Lancashire 1923 and has two daughters. He was badly injured in WW1 and committed suicide in 1956.
I cannot trace IVY. NORA was taken out of school in LYTHAM in 1912, given reason 'leaving the area'. Perhaps the family moved to Ireland?
Arthur's family came from a long line of Plumbers and Plumbing Wholesalers, ALEXANDER, Agnes's father was a plumber - is this how they possibly met?
Any information would be so wonderful, and I would be only too happy to share the information I have.
Julie
BRUCE, MOTTRAM, MOORE, MARKESKY, VEASEY
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Hi Chatswood2016
Welcome to RootsChat :)
Could you alter your heading as Agnes looks to be born 1898, she surely wouldn't be having children at such a young age ;D ;D
When was she born ?
claire
Moderator comment. Date amended in title to show 1889 rather than originally mis-typed by poster 1898
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Right think I've found her in 1891 census
Wolverhampton : 14 Bishop Street
Alexander Markowski hd mar 34 glazier and house painter . bn Poland Europe
Agnes wf 26 " Bilston Staffs.
Rosanah dau 3 " Bilston Staffs
Agnes " 1 " Wolverhampton Staffs
Class: RG12; Piece: 2226; Folio: 140; Page: 48;
claire
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Yeiks sorry, in my excitement I didn't proof read properly. Will attempt to correct it, though have only just joined and not sure of the protocol! FYI Agnes was born 1889 - I transposed the figures, thanks so much for pointing it out! Feel a real dunce!
Moderator comment. Date now amended in title on all replies to show 1889
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Yes Claire, this is the family, I'm really hoping that someone can verify that AGNES CLEE and AND AGNES MARKESKY (MARKOWSY) are the same person. This has kept me busy for over a week, trawling through every Agnes born around the 1890s in the Wolverhampton district. It's a rather dysfunctional family and every twist and turn there are conflicting second names, false leads and conflicting birth dates. Driving me nuts
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1901 census she is with her widowed mother and numerous siblings
Wolverhampton: 68 Oxford Street
Agnes Markosky hd widow 35 painter and plumber ( employer) bn Bilston Staffs
Rosa dau 14
Agnes " 12
Leonard son 5
Alexander " 3
Cecil " 2
Winifred dau 8 All children bn Bilston Staffs.
Susan Barrett serv. 18 domestic servant bn Wednesbury Staffs
Class: RG13; Piece: 2689; Folio: 167; Page: 26
claire
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You aren't a dunce, we all make mistakes :)
claire
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Yes this is the family, I'm rather excited about the plumbing reference - a link with the Mottrams maybe? Also I know there is someone on this list who has the same second name interests, ND I don't know how to contact them! Any tips?
Julie
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Hi
You see below your name there is the little brown circle with green page within it, this is the PM( personal message )button, press it and send the other person a message :)
claire
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Thanks so much Claire!
Julie
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You're very welcome :)
Were the family Jewish ? I'm just trying to think why they would change their surnames. Maybe they just chose surnames that were more 'English' sounding.
Claire
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No I don't think they were Jewish, but I don't really know, have only just spotted them. The three younger brothers were in an Orphanage in 1901. I spotted Leonard MARKESKY has some WW1 documentation - I'll go and have a look to see if there is enough available to record his religion. I just wondered if it was as easier surname for people to pronounce, or maybe there was anti-German feelings in 1911 and any foreign second name would be suspicious. What ever the reason it's been an uphill struggle to research. Very sad family, losing both parents, options for a young orphaned teenager rather limited, 'marriage' and children seemed a good way out I suppose. Well that's my take on it!
Julie
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Grrrr I don't think I'm barking up the right tree. The three boys were in an Orphanage in 1911, however their mother was alive and living with her three daughters. They seem to be living a fairly affluent life. Maybe the boys were in school at the Orohanage. My candidate for being Agnes CLEE, Agnes Mary MARKESKY is living with her mother in 1911 and her unmarried sisters, and is a student teacher, they are altogether on the 1939 Register and Cecil one of the brothers is also unmarried and living with them. They died unmarried and also left a fair amount of money. This doesn't sound at all like the family I'm researching, however AGNES Senior nee McDonough does come from Irish parentage. What a muddle.
Julie
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Hi
Just got the shock of my life, Agnes and Arthur Mottram are living in the house next door to the boarding house my Grandmother owned (no. 52) and where my dad was born. ;D
What a small world!
claire
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Crikey, that's extraordinary!
Julie
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Wonder what the chances of that are - think I'll buy a lottery ticket!
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I know, I spent a lot of my childhood there, really surprising :)
It really is quite strange, isn't it, all the members on this site to answer and I did.
claire
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Hi again
Have you checked military records for Arthur Mottram ?
There is one in Blackpool ( address: 8 Frederick Street ) which is a 5 minute walk from where Arthur and Agnes were living in 1911.
He was declared mentally unfit for service. His next of kin was a wife M. Mottram.
Wonder if there is a chance Agnes could have had another forename like Mary Agnes or some such name.
There are quite a few Clee families in Wolverhampton too.
claire
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Hi again Claire
Sorry for radio silence, gardening followed by exhaustion. I have checked military records before, the Arthur Mottram I discovered lived at Freshelton Street and was deemed 'mentally defiant' and discharged (probably saved his life). By word of mouth, I know that 'my' Arthur served in Ireland (?is this the link, did the family all go to Ireland) Iceland (didn't even know that was important in WW1) Germany and France. He was badly wounded in France, bayoneted in the leg and suffered shrapnel wound to the head. He never fully recovered and had pain in his head for the rest of his days. We can't even imagine the horrors seen and experienced. On a brighter note a contact on Ancestry found a marriage between Nora, surname Russell or Bruce, to Frederick C Moore, 1950 Leicester. She was insatiable!
Julie
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Hi Chatwood 2016
Welcome to Rootschat. Glad to see you have found some help and how interesting it is from a former neighbour.
I would second the theory that the family were quite likely to be Eastern European Jews. At the beginning of the 20th Century there was much anti eastern European and Jewish immigrant sentiment in UK.
In 1905 The Alien Act was passed partly as a result if this.
There is lots written about it but here is a starting point
www.20thcenturylondon.org.uk/aliens-acts-1905-and-1919
There was also the beginnings of anti Bolshevik sentiment due to unrest in Russia and then the Revolution in 1917
You can see why people may have felt changing their names was a good idea. I do think it interesting that they didn't make an obvious name change similar to their own though so perhaps their was some other reason behind the choice.
Milly
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She is living as wife (though I believe not married) with ARTHUR LEONARD MOTTRAM in Blackpool and environs on the 1911 Census. She had three children with Arthur that I know of, NORA EILEEN born 1906, IVY born 1908, HAROLD born 1910.
Hi Chatwood2016
Just to clarify...are these the three children you believe she used Clee as surname for birth registration?
Do you mean that the children were called Clee? Or just that she used Clee herself (as her own name or a maiden name) but the children were Mottram? Or something else?
Do you have the birth certificates? Is Arthur Mottram listed as the father for all three? If not then who is?
We're the births registered near Blackpool?
I was just wondering if there is a previous relationship with Mr Clee and she got together with Arthur later.
Also, how a sure are you that Agnes Markesky is the mother of these children. Or is it a theory you are trying to prove?
Milly
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Thanks Milly
You are asking all the right questions. The MARKESKY name is just a theory. I have tried scores of scenarios to try to locate her. I have obtained the birth certificate for Nora Eileen, her father is Arthur Leonard MOTTRAM (she is registered under MOTTRAM) her mother's former name is given as CLEE. On the 1911 Census Arthur and Agnes have 3 children Nora (1906) Ivy (1908) Harold (1910) all born Blackpool. Ancestry have a public tree that has an individual HAROLD MOTTRAM born 1910 Blackpool, father Arthur Leonard MOTTRAM, mother Agnes CLEE. He has married a girl from Tipperary and settled In Ipswich, had two children and eventually died there. I didn't buy Harold or Ivy's birth certificate. I have contacted the tree owner, but have not had a response so far. I'm assuming that they purchased his birth certificate (trying to save money here!) I have no leads on IVY MOTTRAM. Nora and Ivy are registered under MOTTRAM, Fylde district, the only Harold MOTTRAM born 1910 is BUCKLOW district.
I am open to all suggestions.
Julie
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That is what I thought you meant but best to check :)
So, the problem is that you can't find anything for Agnes Clee and you thought maybe she changed her name.
And one potential person is Agnes Morkewsky as she is born right place right year. There is also the plumbing occupation link.
Further complication is lack of Agnes and Arthur marriage. If you could find that it would help a lot.
I wonder what Arthur put on his later marriage cert.. single,widower,divorced?
Milly
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Good thought Milly, I will ask my contact, who I believe has the marriage certificate. He is related to the second marriage. I speculate he put single. The family just had some creeping thoughts that maybe he'd been 'married' before as it seemed at 38 they would have been surprised if he hadn't, and also he often talked of his lovely golden haired Doris (your guess is as good as mine on this! I applied and have, a birth certificate for a Doris Mottram born 1911, but mother is given as Annie Mottram, mother's help, no father. I've also found a 'Mrs A Mottram and daughter D Mottram on passenger lists to Canada, the return trip gives their names as Annie and Dorothy - if I remember correctly - so these are probably the same people - it does throw up the question that perhaps Agnes was Annie - or more than likely no connection at all) There is also the Irish connection. Nora was in Belfast and married there in 1922. I don't know where Harold was, but he married a girl from Tipperary. Shouldn't speculate, but it does sound like the family were in Ireland. It would explain the lack of activity on any British records. I know now that the Moore connection occurred in 1950 when Nora married Alfred Moore in Leicester. Feel I have tried every combination of names known to man. Of course there is a massive possibility that Agnes was not born in Staffs at all. I've checked workhouses, re-marriages of parents, orphanages, the 1901 census for Northern Ireland, but it is easy to miss something staring you in the face. It is quite a conundrum!
Julie
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http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/
shows Nora Eileen and Ivy, both with mmn Clee. Harold is not the Herbert H b. 1910 in Fylde area - that's a Herbert Henry, mother's surname Robertson.
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A Mary Hannah Clee was born in Wolverhampton in 1889. Could she be a possibility? it looks like she was illegitimate, the daughter of Martha Maria Clee. In 1891 Mary H Clee is with her maternal grandparents Samuel and Emma Clee but no sign of Martha, who had married William Perry in 1890 in Wolverhampton. In 1901 Martha Perry (married) is living with her unmarried sister Elizabeth Clee, her mother Emma and daughter (down as Hannah Perry age 12 on the census).
As Agnes Markesky appears to be accounted for (living with other family) in the last available census it would seem unlikely that she was the Agnes you are seeking.
Isobel
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Hello Isobel
Thanks so much for responding. I think these are the kind of complicated relationships I need to look at, as I'm short of simple solutions. Will do some rooting around. Thanks for flagging it
Julie
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But definitely discount your Markesky theory.
Milly
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Yes, MARKESKY definitely not a connection.
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There is also this alternative one to follow up
Mar 1888 Wolverhampton 6b 619
Mary Harriet CLEE
Milly
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Will check her out - thanks for the heads up
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On Nora Eileen's birth certificate, who was the informant?
What was the address of birth, and the address of informant? (May be the same when the informant is the mother).
Dorothy Mottram who was sailing to Canada in 1920 is not the same girl as the Doris you found - entry form into Canada shows she was born Toronto:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01hjw/
Mrs A Mottram was born Cheshire, and had been in Canada since 1910 (find this entry by going to page 4518 on above link)
Something that might be of interest - Agnes Clee m. Edgar Hutton in 1930 in Middlesborough, also Agnes Hutton d. 1940 there aged 50.
Also Ivy Mottram married in Middlesborough 1928 to John T Owens (two children on indexes, Ivy possibly died in Yorkshire, 1964 aged 58)
Agnes and her daughter Ivy?
There are other possible Ivy Mottram births of a similar age but the others seem to line up with marriages in their areas of birth:
Ivy b. Nottingham 1905 - probably the 1925 Nottingham marriage
Ivy b. Macclesfield 1906 - probably the 1925 Macclesfield marriage
Ivy b. Nantwich 1908 - probably the 1932 Nantwich marraige
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Hello jorose
Thanks for explaining the passengers - I'll rule them out of the running.
Agnes Mottram was the informant on Nora's birth certificate.
Thanks for the BMD information. I had previously looked at them, but it's hard to know if they are the right ones! I guess the best idea is to start with the Ivy MOTTRAM marriage to see if her father is Arthur. Will think about Making an application for it and if that pans out, applying for the Agnes CLEE marriage certificate. Thanks so. I have for your help.
Julie
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Hi again
Just checked on the 1939 Register and the Agnes who married Edgar Hutton is recorded and born 1901, so definitely not 'my' Agnes. Ivy Mottrom married to John T Owens is a possibility, as she was born December quarter 1908, and Ivy Owens birthday is recorded on the 1939 Register as born November 14 1908, she also has a daughter Eileen, which could be coincidence or an homage to her sister. Could just be me being hopeful. Perhaps it's best I apply for Ivy's birth certificate.
Julie
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Hello,
I came across this forum, while looking for more information regarding my Great-grandmother Agnes CLEE. My surname is Mottram, im afraid I have little to share at this stage but im hoping to learn more about her and Arthur.