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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Lancashire => England => Lancashire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Billy_B on Thursday 28 April 16 22:59 BST (UK)
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My grandfather William Barnes has proved elusive. The first paperwork we have on him is his marriage certificate and we have looked into every William Barnes from Liverpool listed at FreeBMD born five years either side of 1872 (the estimate from the census an marriage certificate) - ordered certificates, looked them up in the census an reconstructed the family trees, only to find out he is none of them.
So we had a family meeting today to draw together what facts we can prove an what we "know".
What we can prove (or at least what we have paperwork for):
- He was born on May 31, 1872 - from the 1939 Register.
- He married Annie Ryan on
October November 10, 1895 in St Joseph's Church, Liverpool - from their wedding certificate. - His father was named Thomas who was a mariner and was deceased at the time of his son's wedding - from their wedding certificate.
- He was born in Liverpool - from the 1901 (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X92B-YCC) an 1911 (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWR5-XZJ) census.
- He died on March 14, 1946 at the age of 75 - from death certificate.
- He was buried in plot AC 365 in Ford Cemetery, Litherland on March 17, 1946 - from the Catholic registry of burials.
What we "know" (often relying on 60-70 year-old memories and perhaps a few rumours):
- He claimed to be English "through and through".
- His mother, apparently, died when he was little, an his step-mother was "the best mother he could ever have had".
- A plaque on his mantlepiece was to: Elizabeth, gone but not forgotten.
- There is a memory that his stepmother might have been called Eliza Berry but there is no such marriage in the time period.
- His father was apparently lost at sea also when he was young.
- He had a cousin called Julia Lynch (it likely her mother was his first cousin, as generationally Julia is of the same generation as William Barnes' children) who married a Mr Styles and had two daughters and a son Arthur who was a prison officer in Cumbria.
- He had other relatives - George and Isabella Kirkpatrick who owned a furniture shop on Stanley Road in Bootle. William and Annie apparently had a rather over-large (enough that it was a talking point) piece of furniture in their house that they got from them.
What we have speculated on:
- There is one William Barnes in the census we can't fit in with any of the known ones we've tracked down - aged 8 an living with an Elizabeth Barnes (a 33 year-old chemical worker from Ireland) in the 1881 census (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XQD8-X8T).
- A Thomas Barnes from Liverpool was lost at sea when the Vicksburg sunk on June 1, 1875, he was aged 31. The sinking made the news (http://www.irelandoldnews.com/Other/1875/JUN.html). A cousin has also found a Thomas Barnes dying at sea in 1878 onboard the Devonia, but I can't confirm this.
- If he was English "through and through" then it seems that a relative (aunt, sister, cousin?) married into the Lynches and Kirkpatricks, rather than him being descended from them.
Obviously, there are a range of possibilities for where the problem finding his birth come in:
- His birth was never registered.
- As both his parents seem to have died when he was still small, he may have been mistaken about where he was born.
- His step-mother may have been mistaken (or been lying) about one or more details.
- He isn't who he says he was - a theory my mother was in favour of, but she was suspicious of everyone. This might suggest that some (surname?), a lot (perhaps his dob stayed the same?) or all of our information is wrong.
Clearly, we've had to work the evidence based on the first couple of assumptions, as it'd be difficult to get around any serious doubt in the information. That said, I have had my DNA tested - Y DNA and autosomal. I've not had much luck with the Y tests but there are some 2nd-4th cousins who match strongly and the only English part of their ancestry seems to largely go back to Cheshire (with surnames like Arnett, Burgess, Davenport). Unfortunately, they've not replied to my email so it is just something I'll throw in, just in case one of those names turns up.
So that is what we have - it should have been enough to track his birth details (with parents) but it has proved elusive.
Thanks in advance for any help.
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- He had a cousin called Julia Lynch (it likely her mother was his first cousin, as generationally Julia is of the same generation as William Barnes' children) who married a Mr Styles and had two daughters and a son Arthur who was a prison officer in Cumbria.
This seemed the best angle of attack, trying to work up around the side of the brick wall an back down again.
A Julia Lynch married an Arthur Styles in 1929:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QV89-Q74Q
They had two girls and a boy, one of whom was an Arthur Styles:
- Mary (1930): https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVQQ-JF8V
- Veronica (1933): https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVQH-R9DQ
- Arthur (1935): https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVQ8-R6VD
We can pick the parents up in the 1939 Register and so we have their dates of birth:
- Julia: 14 Nov 1907
- Arthur: 14 Nov 1903
This allows us to get her birth reg:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=Mfas587bd3mpRT%2BG2yvbXw&scan=1
Luckily, there is only one three-year-old Julia Lynch in the 1911 census:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWR5-15V
The others in the 1911 census are (and there is a fourth child who died before then):
- James Lynch, a fireman, born in Liverpool c. 1884 - father
- Mary Lynch, born in Liverpool c. 1885 - mother
- James Lynch, born in Liverpool c. 1906 - brother
- Patrick Lynch, born in Liverpool c. 1911 - brother
From here it gets a bit tricky as there are a number of possible weddings between a James Lynch and a Mary within Liverpool:
- 1894 - Toxteth Park
- 1895 - Liverpool
- 1898 - West Derby
- 1905 - Liverpool
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My grandfather William Barnes has proved elusive. The first paperwork we have on him is his marriage certificate and we have looked into every William Barnes from Liverpool listed at FreeBMD born five years either side of 1872 (the estimate from the census an marriage certificate) - ordered certificates, looked them up in the census an reconstructed the family trees, only to find out he is none of them.
So we had a family meeting today to draw together what facts we can prove an what we "know".
What we can prove (or at least what we have paperwork for):
[
- He married Annie Ryan on October 10, 1895 in St Joseph's Church, Liverpool - from their wedding certificate.
[
St Joseph Liverpool Catholic Register
image clearly gives date of marriage as 10 November 1895
there are also 4 addresses given - Thomas was Nash St Annie 52 Clare St
witnesses Michael Stanford 22 Rose Villa & Margarita Murphy 37 rose villa
Suz[/list]
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- He had other relatives - George and Isabella Kirkpatrick who owned a furniture shop on Stanley Road in Bootle. William and Annie apparently had a rather over-large (enough that it was a talking point) piece of furniture in their house that they got from them.
George and Isabella seem to have been born around 1848:
1871 census: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBF8-QZF
1881 census: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKXX-LLYL
Which puts them in the same generation as William Barnes' parents, so... aunt or parent's cousin?
They were married in 1869 and her maiden name is Campbell (as we know from the brother-in-law Thomas) in the 1871 census:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N2B3-7VH
She appears to be the child of John and Martha Campbell:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N1H6-YMR
Birth reg:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2N3W-8HS
This might be them in the 1861 census, but you'd expect the brother to appear:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M78B-79P
Looks like John Campbell married a Martha Gall in 1841.
There is no evidence that they had a furniture store.
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St Joseph Liverpool Catholic Register
image clearly gives date of marriage as 10 November 1895
So it does, thanks for spotting that. The certificate I was working from was issued in October 1924, which might have caught my eye and lead me astray.
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I wonder if George and Isabella Kirkpatrick may have been related to the Ryans rather than the Barnes??
1871 census
Moses and Kate Ryan (Annie's parents) are lodging with the Brocksapp? family - and are living next door to George & Isabella Kirkpatrick
Suz
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Just some thoughts:
James LYNCH marries Mary CONNOR 1904 Liverpool (registrar attended)
Mary CONNOR daughter of Patrick and Julia CONNOR.
Julia BARRY marries Patrick CONNOR Sep Qtr 1871 Liverpool
Julia BARRY daughter of John and Johanna BARRY has a sister Eliza b.~1844.
Possible marriage for Thomas BARNES and Eliza BARRY Jun Qtr 1869 Liverpool.
Maureen
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:) :)
A*try
Liverpool, England, Catholic Baptisms,
Gulielmus BARON born 31 May 1872
Baptism: 16 Jun 1872
Parish:Our Lady of Reconciliation de La Salette, Lancashire, England
Father:Thomae Baron
Mother:Elizth Barry
Maureen
EDIT: It looks as though there were 2 other children (girls) born to the couple.
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I read this thread earlier and put it into the "too hard to even think about while I am cooking dinner" basket. ;D
I just wanted to pop in and say what great work you have done Maureen! It looks like you might have cracked it!
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I read this thread earlier and put it into the "too hard to even think about while I am cooking dinner" basket. ;D
I just wanted to pop in and say what great work you have done Maureen! It looks like you might have cracked it!
Ah,thank you,Ruskie! :)
I did the same as you-started looking at this just before bed last night and thought "maybe in the morning". Amazing what a good night of sleep can do for the brain cells.
Billy_B provided such great information.
I think I'll leave it to others to do the follow up,though. Quitting while I'm ahead. ;D
Maureen
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Looks like both of William's sisters died - Helena Maria Elizabeth bp.1870 died as Ellen Mary E. Mar.qtr.1872 Liverpool - Elizabetha bp.1875 - if Eliza died Dec.1875, if Elizabeth died Jun.1876.
Can't find birth registrations for Helena/Ellen and William.
Annette
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1871 A*try
Thos BARNS occ:fire man born 1845 Ireland with wife Eliza daughter Ellen and sis-in-law Julia BANY(sic).
3813/10/14
Maureen
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Thomas Barnes, son of William (Gulielmi), married Elizam Barry, dau. of John (Joannis) on 18/4/1869 St. Anthony, Liverpool - witnesses Patricio Barry and Julia Barry.
1861 Census shows Eliza Barry bc.1844 Ireland, dau. of John and Johanna Barry living in Liverpool. One of their other children is Julia Barry.
Annette
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Sorry-just put some info here that we already have re:the Thomas BARNES death on the Vicksburg. ::) ::) ::)
Maureen
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A cousin has also found a Thomas Barnes dying at sea in 1878 onboard the Devonia, but I can't confirm this.
Your cousin has read the record incorrectly. Thomas John Barnes, age 3, died from Pneumonia on 6/Aug/1878 whilst onboard the vessel SCOTTISH BARD official number 68640. The vessel was employed carrying immigrants to Australia (Queensland). It would seem there was an outbreak of Measles and a least 17 people, mainly children, died over a three week period. Doubtful this is your man.
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Well this has been mighty impressive - this has been an issue the family have been working away at for 20+ years with various cousins taking a run at it then passing the baton to other cousins to have a go at and it has eventually been passed on to our children. We weren't confident that the mystery wouldn't end up being bequeathed to our grandchildren! Now it looks to have been solved in less than 24 hours!
:) :)
A*try
Liverpool, England, Catholic Baptisms,
Gulielmus BARON born 31 May 1872
Baptism: 16 Jun 1872
Parish:Our Lady of Reconciliation de La Salette, Lancashire, England
Father:Thomae Baron
Mother:Elizth Barry
That is a great find, the 1939 Register really helps us confirm this - I know a cousin has been through the Liverpool Catholic baptisms before but with a surname of Baron and without the birth date it'd be so easy to miss.
1871 A*try
Thos BARNS occ:fire man born 1845 Ireland with wife Eliza daughter Ellen and sis-in-law Julia BANY(sic).
3813/10/14
That helps nail it all down, it not only confirms the information on the Vicksburg, but also slots in nicely with the great work you did connecting the Barrys to the Lynchs:
Just some thoughts:
James LYNCH marries Mary CONNOR 1904 Liverpool (registrar attended)
Mary CONNOR daughter of Patrick and Julia CONNOR.
Julia BARRY marries Patrick CONNOR Sep Qtr 1871 Liverpool
Julia BARRY daughter of John and Johanna BARRY has a sister Eliza b.~1844.
Possible marriage for Thomas BARNES and Eliza BARRY Jun Qtr 1869 Liverpool.
It is good to discovery that a collection of old memories and rumours turns out to be right (give or take a Berry/Barry) but the odd thing is business of the stepmother. The timing is awfully tight as Thomas would have had to remarry between 1872 and 1875. Also the widow Elizabeth from Ireland with William Barnes in 1881 would seem to be the same person as his mother:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XQD8-X8T
The only odd thing is she is 33, which is quite a bit younger than Eliza Barry (who was 9 in the 1851 census and 17 in the 1861 census and 26 in the 1871 census). I suppose it is always possible that Eliza died and Thomas married a younger Elizabeth but the only relevant death I can find is an 1878 one for a 35 year-old Elizabeth Barnes:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=UMDluMLnWpHZ83iG%2F9%2BZPw&scan=1
There is another wedding of a Thomas Barnes to an Eliza/Elizabeth in 1873:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=LUTwGMVWCqE03nKITzU5rg&scan=1
This appears to be an Elizabeth Hughes:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NJJJ-1XP
It is possible that Eliza dead giving birth or soon after and their death was never registered - the family clearly have form for it.
As said here:
Looks like both of William's sisters died - Helena Maria Elizabeth bp.1870 died as Ellen Mary E. Mar.qtr.1872 Liverpool - Elizabetha bp.1875 - if Eliza died Dec.1875, if Elizabeth died Jun.1876.
There is an Eliza Barnes who died in 1875:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2J22-7XJ
It doesn't matter that much, as we seem to have the key bits of the family pinned down which is more than I was hoping, but it'd be interesting to unearth this element of his story. It might be I'll have to order up one of those death certificates. It could always be that his "step-mother" was perhaps an auntie who came to look after him (it happened on my mother's side of the family). We'll see.
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A cousin has also found a Thomas Barnes dying at sea in 1878 onboard the Devonia, but I can't confirm this.
Your cousin has read the record incorrectly. Thomas John Barnes, age 3, died from Pneumonia on 6/Aug/1878 whilst onboard the vessel SCOTTISH BARD official number 68640. The vessel was employed carrying immigrants to Australia (Queensland). It would seem there was an outbreak of Measles and a least 17 people, mainly children, died over a three week period. Doubtful this is your man.
Thanks for that. I think we are safe going with the Vicksburg, assuming he did die at sea, which seems a reasonable bet and the facts fit Thomas Barnes.
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1861 Census shows Eliza Barry bc.1844 Ireland, dau. of John and Johanna Barry living in Liverpool. One of their other children is Julia Barry.
And the 1851 has them listed as coming from Wexford (interesting as I have a good DNA match with a group of cousins from Wexford, which I had assumed were coming in from Moses Ryan and Anne Doran). As we see in the 1871 census that they are both from Ireland:
1871 A*try
Thos BARNS occ:fire man born 1845 Ireland with wife Eliza daughter Ellen and sis-in-law Julia BANY(sic).
3813/10/14
It does rather cast doubt on his claim to be "English through an through" when he is really Irish through and through. ;)
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I wonder if George and Isabella Kirkpatrick may have been related to the Ryans rather than the Barnes??
1871 census
Moses and Kate Ryan (Annie's parents) are lodging with the Brocksapp? family - and are living next door to George & Isabella Kirkpatrick
Well spotted - that is where a fresh pair of eyes come in handy. Moses Ryan appears in the 1861 census on his own, but with a lot of other Ryans. As his bit of the family tree has fallen apart recently (despite the fact that there aren't that many Moses Ryans around), it is definitely possible he was staying with/near family while he was finding his feet. He is then in his own home with Catherine and Annie in the 1881 census before his unfortunate industrial accident.
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The strange spelling of Barn(e)s as Barron also appears in the marriage register for the same church (Our Lady of Reconciliation Liverpool). An 11 May 1862 marriage of a John Barron son of Thomas Barron and Ellen Sinnott both of County Wexford, Ireland. The John and Ellen who married there were great, great grandparents of Cilla Black. If you research the surnames Barnes, Barns, Barron etc on Irish sites you will find that these different spellings appear as variations of the same surname used in Ireland.
Blue
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The strange spelling of Barn(e)s as Barron also appears in the marriage register for the same church (Our Lady of Reconciliation Liverpool). An 11 May 1862 marriage of a John Barron son of Thomas Barron and Ellen Sinnott both of County Wexford, Ireland. The John and Ellen who married there were great, great grandparents of Cilla Black. If you research the surnames Barnes, Barns, Barron etc on Irish sites you will find that these different spellings appear as variations of the same surname used in Ireland.
Thanks for that information - we'd been so focused on Barnes as an English surname that we hadn't looked into Irish variations, but the baptismal records now make more sense. I'll keep an eye out for the family being listed as Baron in the Irish records. I have spoken to the administrators of the Barron DNA Project but they don't see any clear matches with their members, but then again I don't have any good matches with Barneses either.
Of course, it does now bring in the fear that we may be distantly related to Cilla Black! ;)
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"Surprise, surprise.." ;)
Blue
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"Surprise, surprise.." ;)
You prepare yourself for murderers, terrible industrial accidents, evil Norman overlords and murderous icebergs, but not that. The horror. :o
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Julia BARRY daughter of John and Johanna BARRY has a sister Eliza b.~1844.
We have the Barrys in the the 1851 and 1861 censuses:
- 1851: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKV6-1CNG
- 1861: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7P4-TDZ
So they appear to come from Wexford and presumably married in Ireland where they had some kids before coming to Liverpool and having some more, so it looks like they'd be easy to track down. The wife's maiden name would help pin them down In Ireland (as a quite search doesn't show up anything obvious) and I should be able get it from one of the English childrens' birth certificates. Julia seems the most obvious but I can't find anything for her, or Martha, and there are too many for the second son called John, but it looks like this is Catherine:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2N4H-HNN
Given the apparent lack of a registration for Julia and Martha Barry or any of the Barnes children, is this common? This kind of thing has caused a brickwall on my wife's side (which you kind folks helped resolve (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=738966.0)) and I'm wondering if (possibly illiterate) Irish immigrants often didn't get their children registered.
Anyway, looking into the parents' deaths - Johanna turns up in the 1871 census as a widow (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBXG-NV1), which implies John Barry snr died between the two censuses, giving us two possibilities:
- 1962: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2NK7-G39
- 1965: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2NGG-M6G
Confusingly, this seems to be Johanna's burial in 1882, aged 69:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JZMD-KMH
But the matching death index says she is 62:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=jjifAD6WOcJMLiCAFE9UyQ&scan=1
Unless, her death wasn't registered (which seems a more difficult thing to manage), that seems worth ordering her death certificate.
I can't find her in the 1881 census but an 1871 death of a Johanna Barry has a note saying her husband is a Clement Barry:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=Mfjpq98DwFD3F4UDMu5V6Q&scan=1
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Also going back to William and Annie Barnes family, the 1911 shows they lost two children. There has been talk in the family about two children who died young and/or at birth:
- Thomas Barnes - he was born on the 27th May, 1903 and baptised 8th June, 1903. He apparently died when he was 3 months old, but I found this death registration (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2NP5-VV5), although he would have been less than a month old..
- Anthony Barnes - he was apparently my father's twin, so would have been born around the same time as hims: 13th May, 1899. However, no one has been able to find any records for him, which (assuming we are right about his name and being my dad's twin, although this is something a number of first cousins knew independently) suggests he could have been stillborn. However, if he was, then would he count towards the live birth count on the 1911 census? If not then there may be another birth lurking around.
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This birth index could be for William but if you give it a go I would enter the details online at the GRO site without the full details so they check it to make sure it's right, saying no to "Is the GRO Index Reference Number known?" entering the year only as 1872. On the next page enter the name as William Barron, I wouldn't bother with the date of birth as it might be different if it was a late registration so enter as 01/01/1872, place of birth as Liverpool and parents names as Thomas Barron and Elizabeth Barry.
Name: William Barron
Registration Year: 1872
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration district: Liverpool
Volume: 8b
Page: 23
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
Blue
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This birth index could be for William but if you give it a go I would enter the details online at the GRO site without the full details so they check it to make sure it's right, saying no to "Is the GRO Index Reference Number known?" entering the year only as 1872. On the next page enter the name as William Barron, I wouldn't bother with the date of birth as it might be different if it was a late registration so enter as 01/01/1872, place of birth as Liverpool and parents names as Thomas Barron and Elizabeth Barry.
Name: William Barron
Registration Year: 1872
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration district: Liverpool
Volume: 8b
Page: 23
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
Thanks for spotting that, I did check but using "Baron" not "Barron", and for the tips on ordering - I am preparing a batch of certificate orders at the moment and will bung that in there.
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Another incidence of Barron=Barn(e)s:-
"Among the godparents of the children (born in the 1850s) of Patrick and Bridget (Murphy) Kennedy were Patrick Barron, Johanna Barron, Nicholas Aspill and Bridget Aspil. The 1850 census of Ward 12, Boston (p. 268, family #587) shows Patrick “Barns,” 75, with Mary, 72; James, 34; Patrick, 30; and Joanna, 20, with Nicholas Aspell, 40, also in the household."
http://www.americanancestors.org/StaticContent/articles?searchby=country&subquery=Ireland&id=213
Blue
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This baptism came up in searches it's worth noting and downloading as a possible:-
Name: Thomas Barron
Event Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 11 Dec 1838
Baptism Place: Adamstown, Wexford, Ireland
Diocese: Ferns
Father: William Barron
Mother: Mary Kavanagh
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633988#page/15/mode/1up
Blue
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This could relate to the 1838 born Wexford man:-
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCQ2-QLV
(The Family Search index record relates to a merchant seamen record on FindMyPast)
Blue
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This baptism came up in searches it's worth noting and downloading as a possible:-
Name: Thomas Barron
Event Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 11 Dec 1838
Baptism Place: Adamstown, Wexford, Ireland
Diocese: Ferns
Father: William Barron
Mother: Mary Kavanagh
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633988#page/15/mode/1up
I had missed that because it is rather beyond the expected birth date - the estimates are: 1844 (from the Vicksburg sinking) and 1845 (from the 1871 census). Unfortunately there are no clear hits:
- Thos Barron - 17th May 1840 in Rathdowney, Laois, mother is Biddy Shelly
- Thomas Burnes - 15th? August 1843 in Galbally and Aherlow, Limerick/Tipperary, mother is Honora Casey
- Thos Barrens - 18th July 1846 in Rathkeale, Limerick, mother is a Mary Sullivan
- Thos Barns (surname obscured by ink smudge, so I might be imagining it) - 28th May 1849 in Monamolin, Wexford, mother is a Mary Stephenson
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This could relate to the 1838 born Wexford man:-
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCQ2-QLV
(The Family Search index record relates to a merchant seamen record on FindMyPast)
The writing is tiny, but it looks like he shipped out at the age of 16 on the Admiral sailing out of Glasgow on the 25th May 1854 and was back home 29th May 1855.
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This could relate to the 1838 born Wexford man:-
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCQ2-QLV
(The Family Search index record relates to a merchant seamen record on FindMyPast)
The writing is tiny, but it looks like he shipped out at the age of 16 on the Admiral sailing out of Glasgow on the 25th May 1854 and was back home 29th May 1855.
Hopefully the Jul/Aug/Sep 1872 birth is the right one and the occupation of the father on it will help to sort this out. Some of my ancestors were marine firemen and I've seen "Fireman on a steam vessel", "Marine Fireman", "Stoker" etc on certificates.
The FindMyPast record that mentions the Admiral appears to be for the man whose Masters and Mates Certificates are on Ancestry. His records are quite confusing he is also known as Thomas Conway. The date 25 Jan 1839 as his birth on the records is wrong as there is a "baptism certificate" with the records saying he was baptised on 25 Jan 1835 in the parish of Glinn, County Wexford the son of William Conway and Jane Barron. There is an explanation by Thomas for the two names. He says his parents both died and his uncle raised him under the name Thomas Barron. The only Liverpool address that appears on these records is 11 St Paul's Square under Thomas Barron.
Baptism for this Thomas Conway/Barron:-
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634067#page/49/mode/1up
He appears on the Lloyd's records as Thomas Conway and the last date for him is 1880 so I think we can discount Thomas Conway/Barron born Wexford 1835/1838/1839 the man with the certificates.
http://www.history.ac.uk/gh/capsC.pdf
Blue
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Ignore that about his occupation the 1871 Census record does clearly give his occupation as fireman so the certificates man who was on the Admiral is definitely not your Thomas.
Blue
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That Thomas Barron/Conway does show how tricky things can get. I'm happy to see the conclusion that it isn't right.
Name: William Barron
Registration Year: 1872
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration district: Liverpool
Volume: 8b
Page: 23
If that is the William we are looking for, then this could be his younger sister?:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?scan=1&r=47862386:1296&d=bmd_1460362145
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Julia BARRY daughter of John and Johanna BARRY has a sister Eliza b.~1844.
We have the Barrys in the the 1851 and 1861 censuses:
- 1851: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKV6-1CNG
- 1861: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7P4-TDZ
So they appear to come from Wexford and presumably married in Ireland where they had some kids before coming to Liverpool and having some more, so it looks like they'd be easy to track down. The wife's maiden name would help pin them down In Ireland (as a quite search doesn't show up anything obvious) and I should be able get it from one of the English childrens' birth certificates. Julia seems the most obvious but I can't find anything for her, or Martha, and there are too many for the second son called John, but it looks like this is Catherine:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2N4H-HNN
As there are so many Barrys born in Wexford (according the the 1851 census), I thought it'd be easy to try and track down Margaret, Bridget, Mary and Patrick, which might help me track down Eliza. So I found this:
- Margaret, bp 12th July 1833 in Taghmon to a John Barry and Joanna Marian
Then keeping an eye out for Taghmon I spotted these:
- Bridget, bp 22nd March 1835 in Taghmon to a John Barry and Judith Minnay
- Mary, bp 30th June 1837 in Taghmon to a John Barry and Judy Murray
- Patrick, bp 8th Jul 1839 in Taghmon to a John Barry and Judy Murray
The thing is that the quality of the records is poor and difficult to make out. Minnay is obvious Murray and the mother's first name certainly looks like Judith. The other two definitely look like Judy Murray. Then if you go back and look at Margaret's records (records are here (http://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000634128#page/1/mode/1up)), if you squint at it, there may be a faded hook on a "y" at the en of the mother's maiden name and, if so, Murray wouldn't be outrageous but while "Joanna" is difficult to make out, it doesn't look like Judith or Judy.
A John Barry married a Judith Murray in Barntown/Glinn on 26th November 1831 (Barntown is only a couple of miles from Taghmon). Coincidentally, before the Moses Ryan/Annie Ryan link back to Ireland collapsed (as a a descendant of the Ryans knew that that Moses Ryan died unmarried in Ireland), the family we traced all got married and baptise in Barntown/Glinn. I have genetic links with a group of Doyle cousins from Oylegate - a few miles north of Barntown.
Anyway, despite the birth order and date being right (compared to the 1851 census (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKV6-1CNG)), the links between the family members there look pretty solid and it suggests these aren't the Barrys we are looking for. Unless the British-born Barrys demonstrate that their mother's maiden name was Murray.
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I was looking at the Kirkpatricks as possible relatives of William Barnes, when they might be connected to his wife Annie Ryan:
I wonder if George and Isabella Kirkpatrick may have been related to the Ryans rather than the Barnes??
1871 census
Moses and Kate Ryan (Annie's parents) are lodging with the Brocksapp? family - and are living next door to George & Isabella Kirkpatrick
So we rewind to the Kirkpatricks:
- He had other relatives - George and Isabella Kirkpatrick who owned a furniture shop on Stanley Road in Bootle. William and Annie apparently had a rather over-large (enough that it was a talking point) piece of furniture in their house that they got from them.
George and Isabella seem to have been born around 1848:
1871 census: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBF8-QZF
1881 census: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKXX-LLYL
Which puts them in the same generation as William Barnes' parents, so... aunt or parent's cousin?
They were married in 1869 and her maiden name is Campbell (as we know from the brother-in-law Thomas) in the 1871 census:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N2B3-7VH
And follow the other line...
We can pick him up in the earlier censuses:
- 1851: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKVX-QKLJ
- 1861: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M755-9RH
He is with his mother Margaret a widow and not only is she from Scotland, but so are the early children, so they seem to have got married north of the border and then headed to Liverpool. Which suggests she is unlikely to be related to the Ryan/Dorans. It may be if we can get them back to Ireland we'd pick up the Kirkpatrick trail or it could be they were just friends of the family from when they were neighbours. So this one might resolve itself in time.
This seems to be George's birth registration in 1845:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:26GD-KPM
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:) :)
A*try
Liverpool, England, Catholic Baptisms,
Gulielmus BARON born 31 May 1872
Baptism: 16 Jun 1872
Parish:Our Lady of Reconciliation de La Salette, Lancashire, England
Father:Thomae Baron
Mother:Elizth Barry
Maureen
EDIT: It looks as though there were 2 other children (girls) born to the couple.
I went to the library and grabbed the baptismal records for the two girls and it shows how difficult tracking them down is:
Helena Maria Elizabeth Barron
Father: Thoma Barron
Mother: Elizabeth Barry
Birth: 24 Apr 1870
Baptism: 22 May 1870 - St Anthony's
Elizabetha Bernes
Father: Thoma Bernes
Mother: Elizabetha Barry
Birth: 18 Aug 1875
Baptism: 30 Aug 1875 - St Sylvester (Sylvestri)
NB: My parents were married at St Sylvester's.
All consistent with this:
Looks like both of William's sisters died - Helena Maria Elizabeth bp.1870 died as Ellen Mary E. Mar.qtr.1872 Liverpool - Elizabetha bp.1875 - if Eliza died Dec.1875, if Elizabeth died Jun.1876.
It also strikes me that is the mother died in late 1875 and the father died in 1875, then Elizabeth's death certificate would reveal who was looking after the children (and might have counted as a "step mother" - I'm wondering if it might be a sister of Thomas Barnes or one of the Barrys). I have ordered that certificate for Eliza. If that is her, then I'll order Elizabeth's, which might shed a little more light on things.
If right, then that suggests the family had a grim old time - Thomas looks to have died in June 1875, Elizabeth was born two months later, her mother Eliza died almost immediately afterwards (perhaps as a consequence of the birth) and then Elizabeth was dead before her first birthday leaving just William.
-
I went to the library and grabbed the baptismal records for the two girls and it shows how difficult tracking them down is:
And I utterly failed to find any of the Barrys who were born after the family arrived in Liverpool (also checked on Lancashire OPC and FreeReg, as well as FindMyPast and FamilySearch): Julia, John, Catherine, Martha and John (necronym?).
I suspect there is some surname weirdness going on, but quite what it might be is elusive.
I might take a put on ordering the birth certificate of a Catherine Barry, the only match I can find in the BMD indices:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2N4H-HNN
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OK I've got three of the four certificates I ordered and as the other is the wedding of Thomas and Eliza Barry, so these are the ones we had our fingers crossed for and they are all hits (although one isn't what I was expecting):
--
William Barron Birth Jul-Aug-Sep 1872 Liverpool 8b 23:
When/where: Twenty fifth June 1872, 245 Burlington Street
Name: William
Sex: Boy
Father: Thomas Barron
Mother: Eliza Barron formerly Barry
Occupation of father: Seaman
Informant: x The mark of Eliza Barron, mother, Burlington Street
Registered: Thirtieth July 1872
Registrar: Robert McClelland, registrar
NB: The date is wrong, but that is the right person so I'll stick with the birth date we get from the 1939 Register and baptism.
--
Eliza Barnes Death Oct-Nov-Dec 1875 Liverpool 8b 22:
When/where: Ninth November 1875, 245 Burlington Street
Name: Eliza Barnes
Sex: Female
Age: 12 weeks
Occupation: Daughter of Thomas Barnes, stoker (deceased)
Cause: Pneumonia 4 days, convulsions 2 days, certified by A Chain LRCP
Informant: x The mark of Eliza Barnes, mother, present at death, Burlington Street
Registered: Eleventh November 1875
Registrar: J Hebson, deputy registrar
NB: Same address as William's birth. I thought this was the mother's death, but it was the sister's - this means the mother lived longer than the father, so I can't see where a step-mother would fit in. It might also be that the 1876 death of an Eliza Barnes isn't her and that the Elizabeth Barnes with a William Barnes in the 1881 census is her (unless she died and Thomas had a sister called Elizabeth who came over from Ireland and adopted him, but Occam's Razor probably applies here). So I am unsure the 1876 death of an Eliza Barnes is worth ordering.
--
Johanna Barry Death Oct-Nov-Dec 1882 Liverpool 8b 17:
When/where: Fifth November 1882, 51 Wilbraham Street USD
Name: Johanna Barry
Sex: Female
Age: 62 years
Occupation: Widow of John Barry, labourer
Cause: Catarrh of stomach and general debility, certified by J. Bond MB
Informant: Henry Carroll, son-in-law, present at death, 51 Wilbraham Street
Registered: Sixth November 1882
Registrar: T Blair, registrar
NB: Wilbraham Street is only just across the road from Burlington Street (both in the general Vauxhall area right by the new tunnel entrance). If she was buried in a private grave in one of the big Catholic cemeteries I should be able to get them to look up who else was buried there, which should help me order the right certificate for her husband's death.
edit: Oh and Henry Carroll looks to be the husband of Catherine Barry:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=Z%2FpbT1UMx%2FvHa3kt3XSrOg&scan=1
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2D5S-1YD
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edit: Oh and Henry Carroll looks to be the husband of Catherine Barry:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=Z%2FpbT1UMx%2FvHa3kt3XSrOg&scan=1
18 Sep 1877 Our Lady of Reconciliation de La Salette, Lancashire
Henricum Carroll, 25 T(F)itchfield St. father Miles Carroll
Catherinam Barry, 19 Burlington St. father Johannis Barry
Johanne Dempsey 25 T(F)itchfiled St.
Marg'ta Fitzpatrick Bond St
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Johanna Barry Death Oct-Nov-Dec 1882 Liverpool 8b 17:
When/where: Fifth November 1882, 51 Wilbraham Street USD
Name: Johanna Barry
Sex: Female
Age: 62 years
Occupation: Widow of John Barry, labourer
Cause: Catarrh of stomach and general debility, certified by J. Bond MB
Informant: Henry Carroll, son-in-law, present at death, 51 Wilbraham Street
Registered: Sixth November 1882
Registrar: T Blair, registrar
If she was buried in a private grave in one of the big Catholic cemeteries I should be able to get them to look up who else was buried there, which should help me order the right certificate for her husband's death.
Johanna Barry age 62 , address 51 Wilbraham St
Burial Date: 8 Nov 1882 Ford Cemetery, Lancashire
grave 937
from Liverpool, England, Catholic Burials, 1813-1988
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If she was buried in a private grave in one of the big Catholic cemeteries I should be able to get them to look up who else was buried there, which should help me order the right certificate for her husband's death.
I see from the 1861c John & Joanna Barry are living with their children at 64 Paul Street Liverpool
This looks to be his burial
John Barry age 60, 64 Paul St.
Burial Date: 25 Nov 1866 Ford Cemetery, Lancashire, England
Grave D.509
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If she was buried in a private grave in one of the big Catholic cemeteries I should be able to get them to look up who else was buried there, which should help me order the right certificate for her husband's death.
I see from the 1861c John & Joanna Barry are living with their children at 64 Paul Street Liverpool
This looks to be his burial
John Barry age 60, 64 Paul St.
Burial Date: 25 Nov 1866 Ford Cemetery, Lancashire, England
Grave D.509
That was swift! Thanks.
It flags up that I missed the record of his actual burial in 1866:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=UWjpXZCrQaIBCr%2F2AF3O1A&scan=1
So I can now get his death certificate ordered with confidence.
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Johanna Barry Death Oct-Nov-Dec 1882 Liverpool 8b 17:
When/where: Fifth November 1882, 51 Wilbraham Street USD
Name: Johanna Barry
Sex: Female
Age: 62 years
Occupation: Widow of John Barry, labourer
Cause: Catarrh of stomach and general debility, certified by J. Bond MB
Informant: Henry Carroll, son-in-law, present at death, 51 Wilbraham Street
Registered: Sixth November 1882
Registrar: T Blair, registrar
If she was buried in a private grave in one of the big Catholic cemeteries I should be able to get them to look up who else was buried there, which should help me order the right certificate for her husband's death.
Johanna Barry age 62 , address 51 Wilbraham St
Burial Date: 8 Nov 1882 Ford Cemetery, Lancashire
grave 937
from Liverpool, England, Catholic Burials, 1813-1988
Thanks for that. I did have a burial record (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JZMD-KMH) (which led to the death certificate) just not the location, although it now turns out the date and her age of death was wrong!!
-
And I utterly failed to find any of the Barrys who were born after the family arrived in Liverpool (also checked on Lancashire OPC and FreeReg, as well as FindMyPast and FamilySearch):
Julia, John, Catherine, Martha and John (necronym?).
I suspect there is some surname weirdness going on, but quite what it might be is elusive.
The 1851 c son/dau John & Julia age 3 (1848) noted as Twins of John & Joanna Barry
Possibly Julia’s Christian name is Johannah on birth entry
John’s 1848 birth entry vol/page same as Johannah’s entry
John Barry
1848 Oct-Nov-Dec Liverpool Lancashire Volume: 20 Page: 2538
Johannah Barry
1848 Oct-Nov-Dec Liverpool Lancashire Volume: 20 Page: 2538
If you look at the original 1848 birth entries they are written as
surname Barry name Johannah district Liverpool vol XX page 258
surname Barry name John district Liverpool vol XX page 258
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Ask Ozranga (Marienne) on this request offer thread. She can tell you everyone in a private grave:-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=651292.423
Blue
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Saw the names George & Isabella Kirkpatrick earlier - not sure if their marriage details have already been posted - apologies if I've duplicated
25 Dec 1869 St Nicholas Church
George Kirkpatrick, porter, Blake St. f James, stonemason
Isabella Campbell, ?insworth St. f James, sail maker
Both f/a, both single, he signed,she made her mark (x)
Witnessed by Thomas Campbell (x) & Margaret Harris
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edit: Oh and Henry Carroll looks to be the husband of Catherine Barry:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=Z%2FpbT1UMx%2FvHa3kt3XSrOg&scan=1
18 Sep 1877 Our Lady of Reconciliation de La Salette, Lancashire
Henricum Carroll, 25 T(F)itchfield St. father Miles Carroll
Catherinam Barry, 19 Burlington St. father Johannis Barry
Johanne Dempsey 25 T(F)itchfiled St.
Marg'ta Fitzpatrick Bond St
And we then pick them up in the censuses, the 1881 census has Johanna living with them:
- 1881: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKXX-X53P
- 1891: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:79V5-1ZM
- 1901: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9VS-X3B
This then looks to be Henry with his parents Miles and Hannah (and an auntie) in the 1871 census:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBXG-MV6
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Ask Ozranga (Marienne) on this request offer thread. She can tell you everyone in a private grave:-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=651292.423
Thanks. I've posted the request, which covers what we are looking for here (I've previously phoned them up to get William and Annie Ryan's and Annie's parents - Moses Ryan died earlier and is, presumably, buried in an inner city cemetery):
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=651292.msg5954612#msg5954612
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Have you found any private graves for any of them at Ford or Yew Tree on the Ancestry site? Usually people have a private grave section and number for one person and Ozranga looks up the plot record for the private grave containing the names, dates, addresses of everyone in the grave.
Blue
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Have you found any private graves for any of them at Ford or Yew Tree on the Ancestry site? Usually people have a private grave section and number for one person and Ozranga looks up the plot record for the private grave containing the names, dates, addresses of everyone in the grave.
I don't have an Ancestry subscription, just a FindMyPast one, but I can access it from the local library (although you only get an hour, so I try and get down what I need to look up ready), Anyway it looks like they are all public graves:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=651292.msg5955258#msg5955258
This is the pattern I have on both sides of my family - the first generation out of Ireland (my great grandparents) are in public graves and the next generation (my grandparents) are in private graves. The classic immigrant's story - each generation doing a little better than the previous one. We know William and Annie's grave as various parts of the family still visit it and it has a newish gravestone - it is AC 365 at Ford, buried with Auntie Kate and her family (they only lived a couple of doors down from her parents and they already had a plot as they lost two young children).
-
OK I've got three of the four certificates I ordered and as the other is the wedding of Thomas and Eliza Barry, so these are the ones we had our fingers crossed for and they are all hits (although one isn't what I was expecting):
...
--
Eliza Barnes Death Oct-Nov-Dec 1875 Liverpool 8b 22:
When/where: Ninth November 1875, 245 Burlington Street
Name: Eliza Barnes
Sex: Female
Age: 12 weeks
Occupation: Daughter of Thomas Barnes, stoker (deceased)
Cause: Pneumonia 4 days, convulsions 2 days, certified by A Chain LRCP
Informant: x The mark of Eliza Barnes, mother, present at death, Burlington Street
Registered: Eleventh November 1875
Registrar: J Hebson, deputy registrar
NB: Same address as William's birth. I thought this was the mother's death, but it was the sister's - this means the mother lived longer than the father, so I can't see where a step-mother would fit in. It might also be that the 1876 death of an Eliza Barnes isn't her and that the Elizabeth Barnes with a William Barnes in the 1881 census is her (unless she died and Thomas had a sister called Elizabeth who came over from Ireland and adopted him, but Occam's Razor probably applies here). So I am unsure the 1876 death of an Eliza Barnes is worth ordering.
Especially as that birth is for a 1 year-old:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=5WjuofqT7JKLngAbTc0hMw&scan=1
If Eliza was born around 1844 in Ireland, we have these possibilities:
1878, aged 35:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=UMDluMLnWpHZ83iG%2F9%2BZPw&scan=1
1893, aged 46 (although this would give an estimated birth of 1847):
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=m2YDzbozPV0XuUkY4C5HYQ&scan=1
1903, aged 59:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=CjGYKzR3lGr%2FSeTwYZbZUw&scan=1
A bit tricky to call. If she died in 1903, then you might imagine she'd be with her son William in the 1901 census and we only find them with Annie's mother Catherine Ryan.
There is also this from the 1881 census, which is an Elizabeth Barnes, a widow born around 1848 in Ireland with her son William born in Liverpool around 1873, which fits with the 1893 death:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XQD8-X8R
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Got the wedding certificate today:
Date: Eighteenth April 1869
Groom: Thomas Barnes, 25 years, bachelor, fireman, 87 Rose Vale, Everton. Father: William Barnes, laborer
Bride: Eliza Barry, 2 years, -, spinster, Rose Vale, Everton. Father: John Barry, laborer
Where: St Anthony's chapel, Liverpool
By: Nicholas Molloy
Registrar: John L. Kelly
Witnesses: Patrick Barry and Julia Barry
All signed with their marks.
St Anthony's is two blocks north up Scotland Road from Wilbraham Street.
Not much that we didn't already know from this:
Thomas Barnes, son of William (Gulielmi), married Elizam Barry, dau. of John (Joannis) on 18/4/1869 St. Anthony, Liverpool - witnesses Patricio Barry and Julia Barry.
However, his occupation confirms we've got all the right people.
Also her age shifts her estimated year of birth to around 1846, which would support the 1893 death:
If Eliza was born around 1844 in Ireland, we have these possibilities:
1878, aged 35:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=UMDluMLnWpHZ83iG%2F9%2BZPw&scan=1
1893, aged 46 (although this would give an estimated birth of 1847):
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=m2YDzbozPV0XuUkY4C5HYQ&scan=1
1903, aged 59:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=CjGYKzR3lGr%2FSeTwYZbZUw&scan=1
A bit tricky to call. If she died in 1903, then you might imagine she'd be with her son William in the 1901 census and we only find them with Annie's mother Catherine Ryan.
There is also this from the 1881 census, which is an Elizabeth Barnes, a widow born around 1848 in Ireland with her son William born in Liverpool around 1873, which fits with the 1893 death:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XQD8-X8R
I don't have her in the 1891 census, but the 1893 death is looking more consistent. I'll get the certificate ordered later on.
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Eliza Barnes Death Oct-Nov-Dec 1875 Liverpool 8b 22:
Ninth November 1875, 245 Burlington Street
Eliza Barnes Age: 12 weeks
Daughter of Thomas Barnes, stoker (deceased)
Cause: Pneumonia 4 days, convulsions 2 days, certified by A Chain LRCP
Informant: x The mark of Eliza Barnes, mother, present at death, Burlington Street
Registered: Eleventh November 1875
Registrar: J Hebson, deputy registrar
NB: Same address as William's birth.
Eliza Barnes age 12 weeks, 245 Burlington Street
Burial Date: 11 Nov 1875 Ford Cemetery, Lancashire
Grave S.J.935
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There is also this from the 1881 census, which is an Elizabeth Barnes, a widow born around 1848 in Ireland with her son William born in Liverpool around 1873, which fits with the 1893 death:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XQD8-X8R
I don't have her in the 1891 census, but the 1893 death is looking more consistent. I'll get the certificate ordered later on.
Do you have Eliza’s son William Barnes on 1891 census?
Is this a possibility for Eliza a boarder in Liverpool
Her surname transcribed as Baucke and looks to read Bourke not Barnes :-\ ???
1891 RG12; Piece: 2912; Folio: 61; Page: 16
Eliza boarder widow age 49 Ireland Co. Wexford occ ?house woman
Looking to see if I can find an Eliza Bourke/Baucke on 1881 census but haven't come up with anything yet :(
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And I utterly failed to find any of the Barrys who were born after the family arrived in Liverpool (also checked on Lancashire OPC and FreeReg, as well as FindMyPast and FamilySearch):
Julia, John, Catherine, Martha and John (necronym?).
I suspect there is some surname weirdness going on, but quite what it might be is elusive.
The 1851 c son/dau John & Julia age 3 (1848) noted as Twins of John & Joanna Barry
Possibly Julia’s Christian name is Johannah on birth entry
John’s 1848 birth entry vol/page same as Johannah’s entry
John Barry
1848 Oct-Nov-Dec Liverpool Lancashire Volume: 20 Page: 2538
Johannah Barry
1848 Oct-Nov-Dec Liverpool Lancashire Volume: 20 Page: 2538
If you look at the original 1848 birth entries they are written as
surname Barry name Johannah district Liverpool vol XX page 258
surname Barry name John district Liverpool vol XX page 258
That is a good find - I must have looked at the results for Barrys born in Liverpool and the penny hadn't dropped. I can't fault your logic (coming from a family of alternating Billys and Willys) so I ordered up her birth certificate too.
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There is also this from the 1881 census, which is an Elizabeth Barnes, a widow born around 1848 in Ireland with her son William born in Liverpool around 1873, which fits with the 1893 death:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XQD8-X8R
I don't have her in the 1891 census, but the 1893 death is looking more consistent. I'll get the certificate ordered later on.
Is this a possibility for Eliza a boarder in Liverpool
Her surname transcribed as Baucke and looks to read Bourke not Barnes :-\ ???
1891 RG12; Piece: 2912; Folio: 61; Page: 16
Eliza boarder widow age 49 Ireland Co. Wexford occ ?house woman
Looking to see if I can find an Eliza Bourke/Baucke on 1881 census but haven't come up with anything yet :(
Yes, it is transcribed as Bourke here (she was a warehouse woman):
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:791C-M6Z
Looking at the actual census page, it certainly looks like Bourke. It may be they misheard, but the age is also out. Norfolk Street is on the south side of the city centre down by the docks. So I'd put it down as a maybe.
I suppose it depends on when she died - it might be hers is the earlier death. We'll wait and see.
Do you have Eliza’s son William Barnes on 1891 census?
I found a couple of possibilities:
William Burnes aged 21 - the age is off (we'd be looking at 18-19) but he is a ship's fireman (very telling now we know his father's job, although he is listed as a ship's painter on his wedding certificate and in the 1911 census but you could imagine, given his father's fate, that he might want a safer job when he settled down) and he is living on Silvester Street which is almost opposite St Anthony's. He is lodging with three other stokers and there is a bracket around them saying... "seas"?, one of them appears to be a John Burnes but he is born in Scotland so they aren't brothers [edit: rechecked, John Burnes is 40, so he could be his father]:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:79K2-RN2
William Barns aged 17 in the Toxteth Park workhouse (http://www.workhouses.org.uk/ToxtethPark/):
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:7SRW-66Z
Either census result would explain why he wasn't living with his mother at this point, assuming she was still alive.
Possibly relevant is an 1890 conviction of a William Barnes aged 19, a ship's cook who stole a coat and a pair of socks from one Thomas Ryan and got 1 days imprisonment.
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[edit: double post]
-
I got a couple of the certificates today:
The death of John Barry, which we were pretty certain on, and we see the son Patrick is the informant:
Where/when: Twenty third November 1866, 64 Paul Street
Name: John Barry
Sex: Male
Age: 60 years
Occupation: General labourer
Cause of death: Phthisis, certified
Informant: Patrick Barry, in attendance, 64 Paul Street, Liverpool
Registered: Twenty third November, 1866
Registrar: Thomas Lea Bradshaw, Registrar
And the birth of Johannah/Julia (and they have crossed the mother's name out and rewritten it, but they don't go back and correct the daughter's name):
When/where: Fourteenth August 1848, 3.0.pm, 15 Paul Street, Liverpool
Name: Johannah
Sex: Girl
Father: John Barry
Mother: Johannah Johanah Barry, formerly Murray
Father's occupation: Labourer
Informant: Johanah Barry, mother, 15 Paul Street, Liverpool
Registrered: Thirteenth October 1848
Registrar: Geo Garden, Registrar, Jas Eckersley, Sup Registrar
The fact that the mother is Murray possible brings this back into play:
Julia BARRY daughter of John and Johanna BARRY has a sister Eliza b.~1844.
We have the Barrys in the the 1851 and 1861 censuses:
- 1851: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKV6-1CNG
- 1861: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7P4-TDZ
So they appear to come from Wexford and presumably married in Ireland where they had some kids before coming to Liverpool and having some more, so it looks like they'd be easy to track down. The wife's maiden name would help pin them down In Ireland (as a quite search doesn't show up anything obvious) and I should be able get it from one of the English childrens' birth certificates. Julia seems the most obvious but I can't find anything for her, or Martha, and there are too many for the second son called John, but it looks like this is Catherine:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2N4H-HNN
As there are so many Barrys born in Wexford (according the the 1851 census), I thought it'd be easy to try and track down Margaret, Bridget, Mary and Patrick, which might help me track down Eliza. So I found this:
- Margaret, bp 12th July 1833 in Taghmon to a John Barry and Joanna Marian
Then keeping an eye out for Taghmon I spotted these:
- Bridget, bp 22nd March 1835 in Taghmon to a John Barry and Judith Minnay
- Mary, bp 30th June 1837 in Taghmon to a John Barry and Judy Murray
- Patrick, bp 8th Jul 1839 in Taghmon to a John Barry and Judy Murray
The thing is that the quality of the records is poor and difficult to make out. Minnay is obvious Murray and the mother's first name certainly looks like Judith. The other two definitely look like Judy Murray. Then if you go back and look at Margaret's records (records are here (http://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000634128#page/1/mode/1up)), if you squint at it, there may be a faded hook on a "y" at the en of the mother's maiden name and, if so, Murray wouldn't be outrageous but while "Joanna" is difficult to make out, it doesn't look like Judith or Judy.
A John Barry married a Judith Murray in Barntown/Glinn on 26th November 1831 (Barntown is only a couple of miles from Taghmon). Coincidentally, before the Moses Ryan/Annie Ryan link back to Ireland collapsed (as a a descendant of the Ryans knew that that Moses Ryan died unmarried in Ireland), the family we traced all got married and baptise in Barntown/Glinn. I have genetic links with a group of Doyle cousins from Oylegate - a few miles north of Barntown.
Anyway, despite the birth order and date being right (compared to the 1851 census (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKV6-1CNG)), the links between the family members there look pretty solid and it suggests these aren't the Barrys we are looking for. Unless the British-born Barrys demonstrate that their mother's maiden name was Murray.
The baptism of Margaret on the 12th July 1833 in Taghmon must be them:
http://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000634128#page/1/mode/1up
So can we assume the others are, as they fit the birth order and date estimates in the census?
I suppose "Judy" could be "Julie", which would fit with the Johanna/Julia we can see happening with the birth certificate and/or it could be the mother is doing something similar but as Johanna/Judith? It definitely looks like Judith on Bridget's baptismal record, which could suggest the latter explanation.
edit: If I could find a relevant Eliza/Elizabeth in there, it'd certainly help confirm this.
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Got another certificate:
When/where: Fifteenth January 1872, 95 Titchfield Street
Name: Ellen Mary Elizabeth Barnes
Sex: Female
Age: 1 year
Occupation: Daughter of Thomas Barnes, stoker
Cause of death: Bronchitis, certified
Informant: x The mark of Elizabeth Barnes, present at death, Titchfield Street
Registered: Fifteenth January 1872
Registrar: Robert McClelland, Registrar
Also more thoughts on this:
The fact that the mother is Murray possible brings this back into play:
We have the Barrys in the the 1851 and 1861 censuses:
- 1851: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKV6-1CNG
- 1861: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7P4-TDZ
So they appear to come from Wexford and presumably married in Ireland where they had some kids before coming to Liverpool and having some more, so it looks like they'd be easy to track down. The wife's maiden name would help pin them down In Ireland (as a quite search doesn't show up anything obvious) and I should be able get it from one of the English childrens' birth certificates. Julia seems the most obvious but I can't find anything for her, or Martha, and there are too many for the second son called John, but it looks like this is Catherine:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2N4H-HNN
As there are so many Barrys born in Wexford (according the the 1851 census), I thought it'd be easy to try and track down Margaret, Bridget, Mary and Patrick, which might help me track down Eliza. So I found this:
- Margaret, bp 12th July 1833 in Taghmon to a John Barry and Joanna Marian
Then keeping an eye out for Taghmon I spotted these:
- Bridget, bp 22nd March 1835 in Taghmon to a John Barry and Judith Minnay
- Mary, bp 30th June 1837 in Taghmon to a John Barry and Judy Murray
- Patrick, bp 8th Jul 1839 in Taghmon to a John Barry and Judy Murray
The thing is that the quality of the records is poor and difficult to make out. Minnay is obvious Murray and the mother's first name certainly looks like Judith. The other two definitely look like Judy Murray. Then if you go back and look at Margaret's records (records are here (http://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000634128#page/1/mode/1up)), if you squint at it, there may be a faded hook on a "y" at the en of the mother's maiden name and, if so, Murray wouldn't be outrageous but while "Joanna" is difficult to make out, it doesn't look like Judith or Judy.
A John Barry married a Judith Murray in Barntown/Glinn on 26th November 1831 (Barntown is only a couple of miles from Taghmon). Coincidentally, before the Moses Ryan/Annie Ryan link back to Ireland collapsed (as a a descendant of the Ryans knew that that Moses Ryan died unmarried in Ireland), the family we traced all got married and baptise in Barntown/Glinn. I have genetic links with a group of Doyle cousins from Oylegate - a few miles north of Barntown.
Anyway, despite the birth order and date being right (compared to the 1851 census (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKV6-1CNG)), the links between the family members there look pretty solid and it suggests these aren't the Barrys we are looking for. Unless the British-born Barrys demonstrate that their mother's maiden name was Murray.
The baptism of Margaret on the 12th July 1833 in Taghmon must be them:
http://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000634128#page/1/mode/1up
So can we assume the others are, as they fit the birth order and date estimates in the census?
I suppose "Judy" could be "Julie", which would fit with the Johanna/Julia we can see happening with the birth certificate and/or it could be the mother is doing something similar but as Johanna/Judith? It definitely looks like Judith on Bridget's baptismal record, which could suggest the latter explanation.
edit: If I could find a relevant Eliza/Elizabeth in there, it'd certainly help confirm this.
I did a search to see if there is some link between Johannah, Julia and Judith that isn't obvious. There doesn't seem to be, but I found this list of female ancestor nicknames (http://www.familytreemagazine.com/article/your-female-ancestors-nicknames), which contains:
Joanna, Johanna - Anna, Joan, Jean, Jo, Joan, Jody
This might suggest that Mary and Patrick's mother could actually be Jody Murray. Bridget's mother and the marriage do certainly seem to be Judith, but then I suppose you could devise a scenario where a priest is told she is Jody Murray and thinking she said Judy which he then writes down as Judith. Unfortunately, I can't find the baptism of a Judith or Johannah Murray in Glinn, which is where I'd assume she came from (as they were married in Barntown), despite the records starting in 1817.
I suppose the deciding factor would be if that family stayed in Wexford and died there (which is what caused the Ryan/Doran link back to Wexford to collapse), but that is for the future.
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Also her age shifts her estimated year of birth to around 1846, which would support the 1893 death:
If Eliza was born around 1844 in Ireland, we have these possibilities:
1878, aged 35:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=UMDluMLnWpHZ83iG%2F9%2BZPw&scan=1
1893, aged 46 (although this would give an estimated birth of 1847):
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=m2YDzbozPV0XuUkY4C5HYQ&scan=1
1903, aged 59:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=CjGYKzR3lGr%2FSeTwYZbZUw&scan=1
A bit tricky to call. If she died in 1903, then you might imagine she'd be with her son William in the 1901 census and we only find them with Annie's mother Catherine Ryan.
There is also this from the 1881 census, which is an Elizabeth Barnes, a widow born around 1848 in Ireland with her son William born in Liverpool around 1873, which fits with the 1893 death:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XQD8-X8R
I don't have her in the 1891 census, but the 1893 death is looking more consistent. I'll get the certificate ordered later on.
Got that and it isn't her:
When/where: Twenty first September 1893, Infirmary Mill Road USD
Name: Elizabeth Barnes
Sex: Female
Age: 46 years
Occupation: Wife of William Barnes, rock labourer, 37 Mark Street Everton
Cause: Erysipelas, broncho pneumonia, syncope, certified by A.W. German M.R.C.S.
Informant: W. Barnes, widower of deceased, 37 Mark Street Everton
Registered: Twenty second September 1893
Registrar: W ??, registrar
I suppose the next one to try is the 1878 death - it would fit better with the idea that he had a "stepmother" (or a kind of adoptive one), but it does suggest that 1881 census is wrong (or that William Barnes had an unmarried sister called Elizabeth who came over from Ireland to look after him). If someone did take him in, it might explain why he is elusive in the censuses, although it is surprising that none of the Barrys helped, but we don't know their circumstances.
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Also her age shifts her estimated year of birth to around 1846, which would support the 1893 death:
If Eliza was born around 1844 in Ireland, we have these possibilities:
1878, aged 35:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=UMDluMLnWpHZ83iG%2F9%2BZPw&scan=1
1893, aged 46 (although this would give an estimated birth of 1847):
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=m2YDzbozPV0XuUkY4C5HYQ&scan=1
1903, aged 59:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=CjGYKzR3lGr%2FSeTwYZbZUw&scan=1
A bit tricky to call. If she died in 1903, then you might imagine she'd be with her son William in the 1901 census and we only find them with Annie's mother Catherine Ryan.
There is also this from the 1881 census, which is an Elizabeth Barnes, a widow born around 1848 in Ireland with her son William born in Liverpool around 1873, which fits with the 1893 death:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XQD8-X8R
I don't have her in the 1891 census, but the 1893 death is looking more consistent. I'll get the certificate ordered later on.
Got that and it isn't her:
When/where: Twenty first September 1893, Infirmary Mill Road USD
Name: Elizabeth Barnes
Sex: Female
Age: 46 years
Occupation: Wife of William Barnes, rock labourer, 37 Mark Street Everton
Cause: Erysipelas, broncho pneumonia, syncope, certified by A.W. German M.R.C.S.
Informant: W. Barnes, widower of deceased, 37 Mark Street Everton
Registered: Twenty second September 1893
Registrar: W ??, registrar
I suppose the next one to try is the 1878 death - it would fit better with the idea that he had a "stepmother" (or a kind of adoptive one), but it does suggest that 1881 census is wrong (or that William Barnes had an unmarried sister called Elizabeth who came over from Ireland to look after him). If someone did take him in, it might explain why he is elusive in the censuses, although it is surprising that none of the Barrys helped, but we don't know their circumstances.
Nope, not her:
When/where: Thirteenth April 1878, 58 Waterloo Road
Name: Elizabeth Barnes
Sex: Female
Age: 35 years
Occupation: Daughter of Richard Barnes, farmer (deceased)
Cause: Acute puerperal mania, 3 days, certified by R.M. Pughe M.D.
Informant: Wm Burdett, present at death, 116 Portland Street
Registered: Fifteenth April 1878
Registrar: R. Bookless, Deputy Registrar
Since getting that I've been checking to make sure there is nothing that has been overlooked, like Eliza Barnes remarrying, but there are so many it'd be difficult to come up with anything without any other clues and we might have expected to find this in the censuses. So I'll order the 1903 certificate.
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Quick update:
I've just got a DNA match which is confirmed by the paper trail from the Barrys, coming from the line descending from the oldest Barry sibling Margaret:
https://www.geni.com/people/Margaret-Murphy-Barry/6000000042025198873
She married John Murphy in 1863.
This is her in the census of 1861 with the Barry family:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7P4-TDD
Then after her marriage in 1871:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KZGT-H67
I assume this is her in 1881 (the place of birth is wrong, but John Murphy is listed as a blacksmith, which he is in 1871):
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27L-8YWS
And then the same family in 1891, but she has died by then:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:73QG-DPZ
The interesting thing is that 1881 and 1891 censuses show a daughter Margaret, who could be one of the witnesses at my grandfather's wedding (she'd be his first cousin):
What we can prove (or at least what we have paperwork for):
- He married Annie Ryan on October 10, 1895 in St Joseph's Church, Liverpool - from their wedding certificate.
St Joseph Liverpool Catholic Register
image clearly gives date of marriage as 10 November 1895
there are also 4 addresses given - Thomas was Nash St Annie 52 Clare St
witnesses Michael Stanford 22 Rose Villa & Margarita Murphy 37 rose villa